Beageruta

Kodansha are putting it out in English already.

Digital only mangas getting "published" makes no sense to me.

Someone should pick this up.

Kodansha are putting it out in English already.

Someone should pick this up.

I am listening to Shang Shang Typhoon as I read this and it is wonderful.

Please forgive this senile old reprobate for finding it hilariously ironic that your plea for only making comments about this manga in the comments thread had absolutely NO comments about the manga series in it!!!

 

Not to mention that you stated your opinion as if it were an undeniable fact.  It is my OPINION that I was indeed involved in a petty dispute and I had a lot of fun with it, BUT... 

 

There are many out there who would express their opinion that it was NOT a petty dispute, but was instead a matter of extreme importance.  So how can you call it "petty" in such a way that implies that this is a FACT and NOT just an OPINION?

Sum up the dispute in 100 words or less for someone who is lazy ;3

This thread may have gave me cancer. Multi posts between two parties just repeating themselves. Solution to your problem? Find another manga and leave the comments thread open so ppl can actually read the comments about this manga. Take your petty dispute to Facebook or Twitter or some shit.

Please forgive this senile old reprobate for finding it hilariously ironic that your plea for only making comments about this manga in the comments thread had absolutely NO comments about the manga series in it!!!

Not to mention that you stated your opinion as if it were an undeniable fact.  It is my OPINION that I was indeed involved in a petty dispute and I had a lot of fun with it, BUT... 

There are many out there who would express their opinion that it was NOT a petty dispute, but was instead a matter of extreme importance.  So how can you call it "petty" in such a way that implies that this is a FACT and NOT just an OPINION?

Aah...  But are Sitlo's remarks truly hateful?  That is an extremely subjective opinion which is not held by everyone.  I believe it  was meant in a humorous way, but I admit that different people have different senses of humor.  I believe that it does not fall into the "hateful" category of Batoto's rules because it does not advocate violence against gays.  And apparently, Batoto's admins feel the same way.

 

I also disagree with you that homophobic remarks are the same thing as racist remarks.  The former is concerned primarily with sexual orientation and the latter with one's genetic makeup.  Two completely different subjects, but then again, it is a common debating tactic to try to associate one subject that the debater doesn't like with another subject that almost everyone doesn't like in order to gain sympathy.

I am going to keep it simple and say that racist comments have the same negative impact on those being labeled as members of a race as do homophobic comments on those being labeled as homosexual. This is based on extensively studying artificial social stratification(race and the injustice associated with it), gender equality(specifically injustice suffered by women), sexual orientation(injustice suffered by homosexuals), and the injustice suffered by various other groups. This is a complex topic that is very important in today's society, and so I highly recommend that you learn about it. This is the last that I will talk about this whole matter since I am busy with other things, but if you want I can provide you with various reputable resources that cover this topics extensively.

The key difference is that in one situation someone is requesting that an original work be removed because they find it offensive. In the other situation someone is requesting that homophobic translator notes, and any other notes that might detract from the original work, not make it to the publicly available scanlation. 

 

Both situations are very similar, since individuals are requesting that manga be removed because they are offended, but the source of the offense is different. In one the work itself is seen as offensive, but so long as the manga does not violate the rules that were put forth by batoto, it will remain on the site. In the other, a scanlation group is leaving homophobic translator notes that violate batoto's rules.(Although as far as I know, batoto will not enforce it in this specific situation)

     

• Inappropriate behavior which includes but not limited to: ...hateful, racially offensive,...

The following are examples that were linked to in the post. Sitlo- "Aahahahahhahah and faggetor goes out with a blow...get it?," "oh god...this page...should be in the dictionary as the definition of gay...," so on and so forth. I left the "racially offensive" part up since homophobic comments are the same thing as racist comments. If sitlo was making comments such as "what a (insert racist slur), he would rob those poor white people," I wonder if it would have been taken more seriously.(Probably, since racism is taken a lot more seriously)

 

Alas, I was never in agreement with the removal of scanlations in either situation. I was just pointing out that the two situations are different. Also, while I pointed out that making homophobic comments, or any other comment that insults specific groups, lead to cultural and recognition injustice, I should have avoided putting forth such arguments since they are beyond what can be explained in the comments section of a manga website.(Like I said, if anyone is interested, I can provide information about various texts that give a great understanding about justice and rights that goes far beyond what the majority of people know about the subject.)

Aah...  But are Sitlo's remarks truly hateful?  That is an extremely subjective opinion which is not held by everyone.  I believe it  was meant in a humorous way, but I admit that different people have different senses of humor.  I believe that it does not fall into the "hateful" category of Batoto's rules because it does not advocate violence against gays.  And apparently, Batoto's admins feel the same way.

I also disagree with you that homophobic remarks are the same thing as racist remarks.  The former is concerned primarily with sexual orientation and the latter with one's genetic makeup.  Two completely different subjects, but then again, it is a common debating tactic to try to associate one subject that the debater doesn't like with another subject that almost everyone doesn't like in order to gain sympathy.

Still waiting for the promised elaboration since I answered your queries.  I am eager to read your reasoning on why you think that those two situations are different.  If I agree with your reasoning, I am willing to change my mind on this matter, but first, you must defend your point of view clearly.

The key difference is that in one situation someone is requesting that an original work be removed because they find it offensive. In the other situation someone is requesting that homophobic translator notes, and any other notes that might detract from the original work, not make it to the publicly available scanlation. 

Both situations are very similar, since individuals are requesting that manga be removed because they are offended, but the source of the offense is different. In one the work itself is seen as offensive, but so long as the manga does not violate the rules that were put forth by batoto, it will remain on the site. In the other, a scanlation group is leaving homophobic translator notes that violate batoto's rules.(Although as far as I know, batoto will not enforce it in this specific situation)

• Inappropriate behavior which includes but not limited to: ...hateful, racially offensive,...

The following are examples that were linked to in the post. Sitlo- "Aahahahahhahah and faggetor goes out with a blow...get it?," "oh god...this page...should be in the dictionary as the definition of gay...," so on and so forth. I left the "racially offensive" part up since homophobic comments are the same thing as racist comments. If sitlo was making comments such as "what a (insert racist slur), he would rob those poor white people," I wonder if it would have been taken more seriously.(Probably, since racism is taken a lot more seriously)

Alas, I was never in agreement with the removal of scanlations in either situation. I was just pointing out that the two situations are different. Also, while I pointed out that making homophobic comments, or any other comment that insults specific groups, lead to cultural and recognition injustice, I should have avoided putting forth such arguments since they are beyond what can be explained in the comments section of a manga website.(Like I said, if anyone is interested, I can provide information about various texts that give a great understanding about justice and rights that goes far beyond what the majority of people know about the subject.)

You are right about freedom of speech being a right that applies to public space and not to private, but most people on the internet seem to think that they have the right to say whatever they want to say, regardless of it being a public or private matter.

Yes, it's true, often I find (some) people more than willing to act and speak in such ways while enjoying the safety of being online that I seriously doubt they'd ever have the nerve or poor judgement to do when face to face with.... whoever. I don't necessarily mean Ra-Leader or anyone else here.

Ra-Leader (along with everyone else) is more than due his/her opinion and personal feelings.......in this specific case they might not have been very wise in telling everyone else they should feel the same way or that they were "wrong" if they didn't. Which is pretty much how most would take what they said.   

You are right about freedom of speech being a right that applies to public space and not to private, but most people on the internet seem to think that they have the right to say whatever they want to say, regardless of it being a public or private matter.

 

Alas, I chose to give an explanation of how the right to freedom of speech, and other fundamental rights, are meant to serve justice and that they are not absolute rights. That, of course, was a bad idea since the internet is probably one of the worst places to attempt to put forth reasonable arguments. =)

Still waiting for the promised elaboration since I answered your queries.  I am eager to read your reasoning on why you think that those two situations are different.  If I agree with your reasoning, I am willing to change my mind on this matter, but first, you must defend your point of view clearly.

Uuuuhmmm.........isn't this a really silly discussion (argument) to be having? "Freedom of Speech" is primarily a "political" / human rights concept that ensures the right of dissent.  It does not (ever) mean anybody can say anything, anytime they feel like it.......without getting arrested or getting their teeth punched in that is. 

 

Furthermore, "Freedom of Speech" has (what, absolutely none, right?) bearing on what goes on here, a completely private setting/site...........Batoto can remove, edit, censure, ban........whatever they feel like doing, if they choose to do it. 

 

It's their site, they don't like something they can get rid of it with absolutely no explanation owed to anyone. 

 

Sorry,I'm not trying to join in or start another argument,  I just had to say it.  I personally don't care about the content of this manga or the off-color comments that were in that other manga........a way too big a deal being made about something that isn't that big of a deal.

 

But "Freedom of Speech"? Nah, that ain't what's meant by that, just like you can't yell "FIRE!!" in a crowded theater.........that isn't what's being talked about with "Freedom of Speech".  

You are right about freedom of speech being a right that applies to public space and not to private, but most people on the internet seem to think that they have the right to say whatever they want to say, regardless of it being a public or private matter.

Alas, I chose to give an explanation of how the right to freedom of speech, and other fundamental rights, are meant to serve justice and that they are not absolute rights. That, of course, was a bad idea since the internet is probably one of the worst places to attempt to put forth reasonable arguments. =)

I support the right to freedom of speech, and other fundamental rights, but those rights are meant to serve justice. Racial slurs, homophobic comments, sexist comments, and any other negative comment can lead to recognition and cultural injustice. Depending on whether or not the speech will create injustice, the right to freedom of speech might apply, or it might not. Alas, it would take me hours and much more space than is available to properly discuss justice and rights.(If anyone is interested, I can give information on various works that cover this topics extensively.)

 

I would explain why both situations are different, but instead I want to ask you two questions: 1) Do you think that all speech should be protected, or do you think that there are certain things that we should not be free to speak? 2) And could the right of freedom of speech be applied differently, depending on the ones speaking, the situation, and how that speech might affect others? After you answer this questions, I will elaborate on how both situations are different.

Outside of something obvious like yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater,  I do believe that all speech should be protected.

Now, as to how someone might ACT according to what they say...  THAT is a different matter.  If someone wants to talk about a religious Jihad to kill all infidels, I say, "Let them talk."  But as soon as someone actually commits murder by carrying out that Jihad.  I would say, "Guilty of murder in the first degree, your honor."  I would feel exactly the same about someone who TALKS in a homophobic way as opposed to someone who commits a violent act based on those homophobic beliefs.

In my experience, most people who talk about restricting the right to freedom of speech refuse to differentiate between speech and actions.  I, however, DO see that difference and can separate the two as far as what restrictions I would advocate.

Spoiler

I support the right to freedom of speech, and other fundamental rights, but those rights are meant to serve justice. Racial slurs, homophobic comments, sexist comments, and any other negative comment can lead to recognition and cultural injustice. Depending on whether or not the speech will create injustice, the right to freedom of speech might apply, or it might not. Alas, it would take me hours and much more space than is available to properly discuss justice and rights.(If anyone is interested, I can give information on various works that cover this topics extensively.)

 

I would explain why both situations are different, but instead I want to ask you two questions: 1) Do you think that all speech should be protected, or do you think that there are certain things that we should not be free to speak? 2) And could the right of freedom of speech be applied differently, depending on the ones speaking, the situation, and how that speech might affect others? After you answer this questions, I will elaborate on how both situations are different.

Uuuuhmmm.........isn't this a really silly discussion (argument) to be having? "Freedom of Speech" is primarily a "political" / human rights concept that ensures the right of dissent.  It does not (ever) mean anybody can say anything, anytime they feel like it.......without getting arrested or getting their teeth punched in that is. 

Furthermore, "Freedom of Speech" has (what, absolutely none, right?) bearing on what goes on here, a completely private setting/site...........Batoto can remove, edit, censure, ban........whatever they feel like doing, if they choose to do it. 

It's their site, they don't like something they can get rid of it with absolutely no explanation owed to anyone. 

Sorry,I'm not trying to join in or start another argument,  I just had to say it.  I personally don't care about the content of this manga or the off-color comments that were in that other manga........a way too big a deal being made about something that isn't that big of a deal.

But "Freedom of Speech"? Nah, that ain't what's meant by that, just like you can't yell "FIRE!!" in a crowded theater.........that isn't what's being talked about with "Freedom of Speech".  

Looks pretty exciting.

The principle is EXACTLY the same.  In that topic AND in this thread, both complainers are trying to stifle and censor other people's right to free speech merely because they don't like or don't agree with what they are reading.

 

I personally find racial slurs extremely offensive, but I will NOT advocate the censorship of those who use them because it is part of their right to free speech.  Not to mention that the complete absence of racial epithets would detract from certain types of story lines and character developments in a lot of fiction.  The best example of this that immediately comes to mind would be the film, Pulp Fiction, which is a great film, but filled with racist language.  Censoring any of that film would detract from its quality and popularity, in my opinion.

 

And the bottom line is this:  Everybody is entitled to their opinions and beliefs.  But NO ONE has the right to force their opinions and beliefs on others.

I support the right to freedom of speech, and other fundamental rights, but those rights are meant to serve justice. Racial slurs, homophobic comments, sexist comments, and any other negative comment can lead to recognition and cultural injustice. Depending on whether or not the speech will create injustice, the right to freedom of speech might apply, or it might not. Alas, it would take me hours and much more space than is available to properly discuss justice and rights.(If anyone is interested, I can give information on various works that cover this topics extensively.)

I would explain why both situations are different, but instead I want to ask you two questions: 1) Do you think that all speech should be protected, or do you think that there are certain things that we should not be free to speak? 2) And could the right of freedom of speech be applied differently, depending on the ones speaking, the situation, and how that speech might affect others? After you answer this questions, I will elaborate on how both situations are different.

I do not think that the same principle applies. In that forum post, the original poster was putting forth a complaint about homophobic comments making it to the publicly available copy of the translated manga by the group. The original poster was not trying to control what people have access to, but rather requesting that homophobic translator notes be removed from scanlations that are made available to the public.

 

Alas, I agree with you with regards to the graphic nature of the manga. It is very graphic, like the rest of the mangaka's works, but it is his choice to draw this, and it is our choice to read it. 

The principle is EXACTLY the same.  In that topic AND in this thread, both complainers are trying to stifle and censor other people's right to free speech merely because they don't like or don't agree with what they are reading.

I personally find racial slurs extremely offensive, but I will NOT advocate the censorship of those who use them because it is part of their right to free speech.  Not to mention that the complete absence of racial epithets would detract from certain types of story lines and character developments in a lot of fiction.  The best example of this that immediately comes to mind would be the film, Pulp Fiction, which is a great film, but filled with racist language.  Censoring any of that film would detract from its quality and popularity, in my opinion.

And the bottom line is this:  Everybody is entitled to their opinions and beliefs.  But NO ONE has the right to force their opinions and beliefs on others.

Don't you just love it when someone tries to tell you what you can or cannot read based on what THEY think is best for you?  These are the type of people that I talk about in my post on this topic: http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/13935-ban-groups-that-destroy-the-experience-of-a-manga/

 

The same principle that I espouse there still applies here!  You want to TALK about how distasteful this manga is to you...  Fine!  No problem!

 

But DON'T tell ME what I can or cannot read just because it does not appeal to YOU!!!  I am NOT a child and YOU are NOT my parent!!  So you have NO right to try and control what I choose to look at!!!

I do not think that the same principle applies. In that forum post, the original poster was putting forth a complaint about homophobic comments making it to the publicly available copy of the translated manga by the group. The original poster was not trying to control what people have access to, but rather requesting that homophobic translator notes be removed from scanlations that are made available to the public.

Alas, I agree with you with regards to the graphic nature of the manga. It is very graphic, like the rest of the mangaka's works, but it is his choice to draw this, and it is our choice to read it. 

Don't you just love it when someone tries to tell you what you can or cannot read based on what THEY think is best for you?  These are the type of people that I talk about in my post on this topic: http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/13935-ban-groups-that-destroy-the-experience-of-a-manga/

 

The same principle that I espouse there still applies here!  You want to TALK about how distasteful this manga is to you...  Fine!  No problem!

 

But DON'T tell ME what I can or cannot read just because it does not appeal to YOU!!!  I am NOT a child and YOU are NOT my parent!!  So you have NO right to try and control what I choose to look at!!!

 

If you get to page 25 and you keep reading, something morally repugnant takes place inside you. Don't be entertained by things that are unnecessary to depict for storytelling purposes. To graphically depict things of that nature - although they may actually happen, is to support and indulge the imagination of a sick human being. There is a fine line between enjoyment and spectacle...and I just don't see how anyone can read further without dying some inside. I think this should seriously be taken down. It is horrid beyond words. 

 

If you were ever ending up in any fast food than I think something is seriously wrong with you. Considering all the evidence and if people still choose to go there than they deserve all the diseases the get and no one should pay for it but themselves.  Ra-leader, let people do as they please as long as they are not harming others and are responsible.

If you get to page 25 and you keep reading, something morally repugnant takes place inside you. Don't be entertained by things that are unnecessary to depict for storytelling purposes. To graphically depict things of that nature - although they may actually happen, is to support and indulge the imagination of a sick human being. There is a fine line between enjoyment and spectacle...and I just don't see how anyone can read further without dying some inside. I think this should seriously be taken down. It is horrid beyond words. 

Don't you just love it when someone tries to tell you what you can or cannot read based on what THEY think is best for you?  These are the type of people that I talk about in my post on this topic: http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/13935-ban-groups-that-destroy-the-experience-of-a-manga/

The same principle that I espouse there still applies here!  You want to TALK about how distasteful this manga is to you...  Fine!  No problem!

But DON'T tell ME what I can or cannot read just because it does not appeal to YOU!!!  I am NOT a child and YOU are NOT my parent!!  So you have NO right to try and control what I choose to look at!!!

@Ra-Leader Since it's here read it. If it's not to your tastes stop reading.

Now... did I die some inside? No. I've seen and read about worse... died some then so this didn't affect me. Anyways she wasn't harmed permanently and got her revenge so all's fair in paid sex and revenge murder?

If you get to page 25 and you keep reading, something morally repugnant takes place inside you. Don't be entertained by things that are unnecessary to depict for storytelling purposes. To graphically depict things of that nature - although they may actually happen, is to support and indulge the imagination of a sick human being. There is a fine line between enjoyment and spectacle...and I just don't see how anyone can read further without dying some inside. I think this should seriously be taken down. It is horrid beyond words. 

I read this because of what you said, now I can't unread it. . . Hmm maybe hitting myself will cause amnesia like the manga and anime I usually read. A realistically speaking this is no more gruesome than Claymore. . . I doubt this will pass censorship on Batoto for the content.

If you get to page 25 and you keep reading, something morally repugnant takes place inside you. Don't be entertained by things that are unnecessary to depict for storytelling purposes. To graphically depict things of that nature - although they may actually happen, is to support and indulge the imagination of a sick human being. There is a fine line between enjoyment and spectacle...and I just don't see how anyone can read further without dying some inside. I think this should seriously be taken down. It is horrid beyond words. 

I see that someone already covered this, but I feel I must say it again. Please do not tell other people to condemn something without knowing. It's like saying "just burn the book without reading it". Let people read it and decide for themselves if they are digusted or not. You seem to assume that you can speak for the morals and opinions of everyone. How self-righteous.

EDIT: I rediscovered how to do spoiler tags.