31 replies to this topic

[Jaded]

I think in the case of the headmaster we have to judge the person and the action separately. I know how it feels to loose someone close and I'm sure I'm not alone in this - but for a person to experience himself and everyone he cares for abused and finally killed - You can bet that will frame how that person views that group. You are kidding yourself if you think you can watch that happen to your friends and family and not begin to think of those responsible as something less than human.

Now take a look at how Mogamett treats those he views as human. He is patient and kind - even selfless. He is the very definition of a good person.

Does that mean what he is doing is right and he should be left to do as he pleases? Of course not, we just shouldn't be so fast to slap an "evil" stamp on someone's picture and be done with it.

[Moruno]

It's the individuals that are bad whether they're magicians or not. Once they get into a position of power they try to correct the flaws of generalizations, which means innocent people are brought in. It's probably the oldest recurring theme in history.

Goi individuals are bad. Magicians aren't corrupted by power because they are born with it. The only fault of Muhammad isn't his ethics. It's inefficiency. He's sucking power so much it doesn't replenish and children can't survive for long. His livestock is dying without growing in numbers. And that means limited resources.
What of goi, they are happy living like that. Just let them inulge like animals they are.

[Euodiachloris]

Magicians aren't corrupted by power because they are born with it.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

They're people, too, no matter how much they deny their similarity to other, human, people. All people are corruptible by the temptation to misuse power, if they feel an entitlement to the position over others that they hold. And, I say... when your actions end up killing children who, through no fault of their own, save of having the bad luck to be born to parents who couldn't pay debts are dying... Well, that ain't right.

After all, they could actually be killing potential magicians, let alone "productive" members of society (you don't have to be a magician to have a good mind for music or mathematics), were a few of them to receive training... and, not even know it. After all, they're merely Goi... who cares?

Edited by Euodiachloris, 13 December 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[Pillamelai]

Just let them inulge like animals they are.

I think you mean "like the animal we are". Because, you know, we don't have magical powers, so we are goi, muggles.

... Almost all magicians in the Magi world seem to be muggle-born. The Headmaster's stance is oh-so-ironic from a Harry Potter POV...

Edited by Pillamelai, 14 December 2012 - 07:59 AM.

[Euodiachloris]

It also argues that most magicians are going to have to face a horrible fact: when it comes to having kids... there's a massive chance they're going to have a squib or two in the family.

Kick the kid out to become nothing but a moral-free cow to be milked, eh? After all, there's no way they can possibly be as good as their magoi-sensitive siblings, is there, because it's as if they've suddenly got a lobotomy or turned blind, isn't it? And, we all know that blind people are totally useless without any means of contributing to society as a whole, so they're better off gassed.

Generally speaking, you can rate a society on how it treats and enables those who don't fit the average to work successfully within it. Be it the "fantastic skills and abilities" part of the graph... or the "disabled" one. After all, you're no less or more human if you have enhanced or reduced senses, physical/ mental abilities or personality traits.

Please note: some extreme sarcasm being used. Hard hats and eye-guards are advised for safety reasons.

Edited by Euodiachloris, 14 December 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Yawgmoth]

It also argues that most magicians are going to have to face a horrible fact: when it comes to having kids... there's a massive chance they're going to have a squib or two in the family.

Kick the kid out to become nothing but a moral-free cow to be milked, eh? After all, there's no way they can possibly be as good as their magoi-sensitive siblings, is there, because it's as if they've suddenly got a lobotomy or turned blind, isn't it? And, we all know that blind people are totally useless without any means of contributing to society as a whole, so they're better off gassed.

Generally speaking, you can rate a society on how it treats and enables those who don't fit the average to work successfully within it. Be it the "fantastic skills and abilities" part of the graph... or the "disabled" one. After all, you're no less or more human if you have enhanced or reduced senses, physical/ mental abilities or personality traits.

Please note: some extreme sarcasm being used. Hard hats and eye-guards are advised for safety reasons.

if u go for that then their magician country is heaven
the only thing i dont like about it, is that the goi r extremly limited to what they r allowed to do and where to go, if that s changeable and the children get a chance to decide for themselves if they wanna stay or not it seems fine to me (maybe with the option to change ur decision)

also, i dont know why u make a fuss about all of it anyway
some ppl here mention some pretty bad guys and use them as example
but dont u see how it s in reality?
there s no rly good guy, history shows that the winner is always shown off as the good one and all the bad doings he/ they did will be silenced

even so i know that an animal can suffer i still wont become a vegan
if u follow the laws of physics everything s made of energy u just change the form

the biggest fault one can do is to think there s something like (egoistical) individuality even so i like the thought
but if u watch the bigger picture in the end it wont matter even if it s there

and dont get me wrong here, i m not saying everyone is the same that would only lead to intolerance because of the actual (may they be optical or mental or whatever^^) differences
but because there r differences it does not mean there has to be individualism
i think taking an objective (not being influenced by personal circumstances) stance and thinking about the consequences of ones doings is the way to go

well maybe individualism is the wrong word for it, it s hard to express it the right way...maybe someone out there who understands me and can explain it better

Edited by Yawgmoth, 07 January 2013 - 01:14 AM.

[Euodiachloris]

Huh?

Since when have I come across as a non-pragmatic, vegan tree-hugger? I'm a humanist, not a total idiot. I know crap happens. Heck, I lived in a Third World Country and know standards are relative. However, the ideal is how I've stated it to be. And, ideals, although hard to reach, are worth shooting for and getting as close to as possible.

The moment you treat sentient beings like they're not: you're in trouble. That's all I'm saying. You can take hippy-dippy ideas about veganism and shove 'em, as far as I'm concerned: we evolved with a strong need to eat high cholesterol products... like bone marrow... to feed our brains. That's why trying to compare our diet to that of gorillas and chimps is a non-starter.

I think you pegged me a bit wrong, there. Society needs there to be people with more power over others... but, they don't have to be ogres about it. And, ultimately, riding a large part of any population hard and inhumanely is a recipe for disaster in the longer-term. That's the lesson of every revolution, ever. And, every counter-revolution, for that matter.

[Yawgmoth]

sry for taking so long with an answer i didnt check this forum in a while ^.^

i think u got me wrong about the vegan part...well nvm

about the part society needs some ppl to have more power than the others...the government in most if not all lands is like an ogre in disguise...just my thinking so...
tell me just one land where hte government is truly govern for the ppl...there is only one land that comes to my mind "Iceland" with it s sorta 100% democracy)...what we call democracy in most lands is actually just an oligarchy and on top it ignores the needs of the ppl but it seems that ppl rnt dissatisfied enough yet...to go against it

btt:

what do u think about the headmaster atm?
he has some backbone for going against reim...i still dont like his attitude towards non-magician though

edit:

i found an interesting link to the word "goy" which was used by the magicians for all non-magicians
"goy" was also used in citates from an anti-semite book (i think from an hungarian author), those citations were quite nasty

anyone knows if this was intended?

Edited by Yawgmoth, 13 February 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[dioz]

i found an interesting link to the word "goy" which was used by the magicians for all non-magicians
"goy" was also used in citates from an anti-semite book (i think from an hungarian author), those citations were quite nasty

anyone knows if this was intended?

 

It probably was intended, since most of the terminology used in magi are just corruptions of arabic phrases and words, so hebrew isn't to much of a reach for Ohtaka.

Edited by leaf, 20 March 2013 - 10:50 PM.

[Henryk]

 Talking about the "goy" word, is used by the jewish to refer someone is not jewish. I think it probably is related, it may not be related to arabic cultures, but characters uses sometimes english words so what the fuck.

 

 If it's not what I just wrote, it could come from the word "magoi", taking off the ma and changing the I for an Y could mean the lack of magic in someone.

[paraquat]

sry for taking so long with an answer i didnt check this forum in a while ^.^

i think u got me wrong about the vegan part...well nvm

about the part society needs some ppl to have more power than the others...the government in most if not all lands is like an ogre in disguise...just my thinking so...
tell me just one land where hte government is truly govern for the ppl...there is only one land that comes to my mind "Iceland" with it s sorta 100% democracy)...what we call democracy in most lands is actually just an oligarchy and on top it ignores the needs of the ppl but it seems that ppl rnt dissatisfied enough yet...to go against it

btt:

what do u think about the headmaster atm?
he has some backbone for going against reim...i still dont like his attitude towards non-magician though

edit:

i found an interesting link to the word "goy" which was used by the magicians for all non-magicians
"goy" was also used in citates from an anti-semite book (i think from an hungarian author), those citations were quite nasty

anyone knows if this was intended?

As someone else said, it's a Jewish term for a non-jew. In some senses it can be offensive (a bit like the Japanese term gaijin) but in other cases it's not.

 

Actually, thinking about the nature of this manga, where every nation has it's real-world counterpart, I got to thinking that the magicians have more than a few parallels to the Jews. Up to and including their battles with the Romans. I don't want to get into a whole political thing on this thread though (since we all know that'll bring out nasty words from everyone).

 

With regard to the chancellor, though, he certainly has a case of knowing what's good for everyone else. I am guessing that will be his downfall. A running theme in this manga seems to be the exercise of free will (within the confines of an overarching fate) and that people should be free to act on their own desires. I am guessing that the chancellor will try to pull something to counter that, and end up pulling a djinn out of his djinn-hole. Aladdin will Solomon the guy after Alibaba and maybe some others take out the Djinn, and we learn some more tragic backstory, and the fight against Al Sarmen continues. I mean, the old guy is throwing up death flags all over the place - the fact that we couldn't see his expression in the last chapter suggests that he's about ready to unleash the djinn.

[SeeJay]

So I read this in the comments:

I don't think he is evil, I think he is just insane, he constantly affirmed that he wanted to protect both goi and magicians in a very obsessive, it was obvious that he only said that to keep himself sane.

Think he suffered mass prejudice, saw his whole family die in front of him, and had to accept that in order to protect those who used of prejudice against him, and now he saw those he truly cared about die in front of him, his hatred only created more hatred, all the methods he used to keep himself sane were destroyed.

 

Spoiler

And now because of his insanity, he created monster from the black rukh and its playing right on the hands of the Al Thamen.

One last thing the man antagonist of Balbad Arc was Ali Baba's elder brother, but the enemy he had to face was Cassim, in magi there is a very thin line that separates enemy and hero, the real antagonists are the Al Thamen, no matter what enemy they face

 

 

I Agree. I think he wanted to remain the same kind father/teacher that he was when his daughter was still alive, but the tragedies that he experienced gave birth to hatred for the goi. He was torn between the kindly teacher/father-figure aspect of himself and the hate-filled magician aspect. To resolve this inner conflict, he made a caste system with the goi at the very bottom. He rationalized this by thinking that all the non-magicians wanted was the "freedom" to follow their base desires like eating and fornicating. So he gave them that "freedom," in exchange for magoi.

 

When he saw the dead magicians, he was again torn between his perceived self and his actual self. I think he wanted to suck up even more magoi from the goi even if many of them died, but his self-perception prevented him from doing so. The mental stress eventually broke the mask that he made for himself and forced him to look at his true self. He couldn't take it and he snapped. I think now, he's starting to curse his own fate, his destiny that took away everything that he loved and made him what he was, hence the black rukh.

 

If you read One Piece, he is sort of like Fisher Tiger when he said, "I cannot love humans anymore." He wanted to make peace with them, but his hatred prevented him. Mogamett is like a darker, more twisted version of FT.