12 replies to this topic

[The Dutch]

Being a bit of an outdoorsman myself as well as an avid deer hunter (killed 6 in the past 5 years), i was pleasently suprised at the depth and accuracy of the survival tips. The hunting arc (from like ch 17-20's) was very accurate, from the place the deer should be shot, to field dressing (removing the guts), tracking, sitting with the wind in your face (so your scent is not carried to the deer), hanging the carcass so the blood drains, and many other things were all spot on. My regards to the mangaka for doing his research, it is clear he took the time to do it right. So if anyone was curious, you could actually use this manga as a survival reference if you wanted to, everything is factual.

[Camillo Iannaccone]

What I would like to see is the natural sorting out of who does what job and the information on how to survive using that area's knowledge (example: gardening/gathering=medicinal and edible plants; fishing=catching techniques; etc.).

[imercenary]

everything is factual.

Everything? No. Parts of it, sure.

Making a bow is not as simple as "find flexible wood and tie tight string between the two ends". Arrowheads are a bitch to make from scratch too, it takes hours to make WITH knowledge AND experience AND tools. And anyone with both of the above knowledge and skill to pull it off is way past the skill set of a Japanese NEET (archery is a VERY high class hobby in Japan)

Edited by imercenary, 01 February 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[Hollowcantaro]

Having a few friends who hunt, both big and small "game" ( I think thats the english for it) Mosto of them (some archers included) speak badly about bows.
Hunting with them properly takes far more time and they are mostly used to "hunt" animal figures made of wood.
Mangas are like movies, not everything has to be real o realistic but learning to hunt like that...

[SAI Peregrinus]

I do "traditional" archery (wood/horn bows only, wood arrows, no sights/stabilizers/triggers/modern accessories) and it's certainly very much harder than portrayed here. That said, making a self-bow (a bow out of a single piece of wood) isn't all that hard. It would take quite a few tries, but it can be done. Making the arrows is harder, a fletching jig must be used. While it's possible to make those there's none shown in the manga.

Bows, especially traditional bows, are very, very hard to hunt with. There's a far greater chance of injuring the animal than killing it, so you're in for a long chase until it drops. And without modern arrows with bleeders (small razor blades that sever arteries) that can take quite a while. I don't like hunting with bows because of this, it causes avoidable suffering for the animal.

Developing the muscles to shoot a bow also takes time. They aren't used in most other activities, so to use a heavyweight hunting bow instead of a light target bow takes quite a bit of training.

[truepurple]

Well here are some inaccurate information found.

One, it is not particularly dangerous to consume sea water, its just that if that is all that you are consuming, that its salt content will cause you to urinate out more whater then you are taking in to avoid sodium poisoning. Excessive salt in the diet, like many excesses in diet, can be hard on the liver. So they could use the sea water to flavor the food if they wanted, just have to be careful to not overdue salt content. Kind of a funny idea to dry out seawater into just salt, to make it safe to consume, when it is the salt that makes it dangerous. Well if the water was contaminated, by factory pollution or human waste getting into the water etc, that would be another matter. But then the salt from it would be equally bad, or even worse since it is concentrated. All that could be done would be cooking it to kill any bacterial content. There are also other kinds of salts in seawater then just sodium cloride, some of which can be mildly risky to consume in too great of quantities.

Two, you can not catch a cold from being cold! What is known as "the common cold" is a infectious disease that won't be found floating in the wilds of a sparely populated island. Now it is true that having good stamina can help you fend off many diseases, but the reverse is not necessarily true, you will not necessary get sick of a disease because you ran out of stamina, especially as mentioned before, in the wilds, as there is no one around you to give you human compatible infections. Of course hypothermia is another matter. A note, there are on some peoples skins, opportunistic diseases that can get into wounds and stuff. But diseases like colds are not like that, can not survive out of the body for very long.

I think its safe to eat the intestines of a deer. For that matter the head was discarded, which contains the tongue, eyeballs, brain, of the deer, all of which are edible. Bone marrow is also edible, though difficult to get to. Bone shell itself is useful for making tools.

And hopefully the skin wasn't discarded, lots of use for leather.

If he wanted to thank the deer properly, he should have used it completely. (regarding chapter 19-20 or so)

Edited by truepurple, 17 August 2013 - 08:04 PM.

[IHavoc]

To the above, I can appreciate the effort but I don't think most of those are really inaccuracies.

 

Most people simply assume you should not drink sea water because it dehydrates you, disregarding they may have been thinking long term to begin with. Also I believe the method they use to extract sea salt is a real and safe one. I at least see similarly simple ones just by googling it.

 

Sei specifically said he just doesn't know which parts of the bowels are safe to eat. They already have plenty of tools. And at this point he hasn't considered eating the head, though he may eventually. And\ I doubt anyone there knows how to make leather, or if they even need to yet. You can't really fault him as an amateur.

 

But it is true that cold susceptibility has nothing to do with stamina or a lowered immune system. I'll just assume they're referring to general illnesses.

 

From what I've looked up you don't need a fletching jig, but it is weird that they present it as if he'd practiced the heavy bow and traditional fletching in his archery club. So I guess they were apparently super hardcore? Or just he was after the suicide?

Edited by IHavoc, 20 August 2013 - 02:37 PM.

[truepurple]

Also I believe the method they use to extract sea salt is a real and safe one. I at least see similarly simple ones just by googling it.

 

I never said it wasn't real or safe, I was talking about the fact that the main danger of drinking sea water is the salt, so it's extremely silly to think that you would be making it any safer  by extracting the water.
 
If they really knew this, then they would be cooking with seawater to salt their food, they were complaining about how bland it is after all, at first.
 

Sei specifically said he just doesn't know which parts of the bowels are safe to eat.

 
I made that comment before having reached that part of the manga, which is much latter on. Anyway its not that complicated, I would bet all of the intestines are safe to eat, aside from maybe a bit of that leading from the stomach or for sure at least the small intestines. If there was any doubt, he could eat a bit of it to see if it disagreed with him. Also he used his sense of smell to decide whether or not to eat meat spoiled by touching stomach acid, he could do the same with deciding which part of the intestine to eat.

 

And you didn't comment on the bone marrow, I've heard there's lots of value in that.

 

though he may eventually. And by that logic I doubt anyone there knows how to make leather, or if they even need to yet.

 

Temperature is dropping/winter is coming, and there isn't enough cloak/blankets to go around. Leather can also be used for reinforcing bows etc too. Shoes are wearing out, I bet simple leather slippers could be used to spare peoples feet from the ground. Don't underestimate how painful it can be, and hard on feet it can be, to go barefoot in certain areas, without large callous build up, you can even get some serious wounds on ones feet running through the forest barefoot, plus one could lose toes walking barefoot on frozen ground. Though I suppose wooden shoes etc could be used, not that those have been made either, nor would they protect feet from the cold sufficiently. I guess shoes don't wear out in this reality, clothes for that matter. Ok maybe theres some stuff in the leftover village, but that won't last forever either, and then there's sizes to consider. Leather can used for rope, and lots of uses for rope (and most uses of rope wear it out pretty good)

 

As far as not knowing how to, sure. But he hasn't tried either. First thing I would try would simply be stretching the skin anchored onto a wooden frame and drying it at first in front of a fire and or smoking it, like he does the meat (even with the meat). Maybe try putting salt on it to make it try faster and prevent bacteria and mold from setting in. I am sure it would take alot of trial and error, and result in waste, but he hasn't tried anything and throws away all skin that he could experiment with. He never even asked that guy in the cabin if he knew how to make leather either.
 

But it is true that cold susceptibility has nothing to do with stamina or a lowered immune system.

 

Not quit what I said, and not quit true. You are more likely to get a infectious disease (like the cold) if your immune system is compromised (and it lasts long), and being low on stamina does compromise your immune system a bit. But you can not catch such a disease without getting it from a carrier, no matter how compromised your immune system. And no matter how strong your stamina, or how warm you keep yourself, you can still get the cold.

Edited by truepurple, 20 August 2013 - 04:15 PM.

[IHavoc]

Nevermind the saltwater, I forgot the point when they were talking about cooking with it, not drinking it.

And I'm not saying there's no use for leather. Just that by this manga's format they'll probably conveniently come up with the idea and ability to make leather when the need arises with the usual diagrams and such.

And I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the risk of catching the cold is about the same regardless of the state of your immune system.

[AllegedTumor]

And I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the risk of catching the cold is about the same regardless of the state of your immune system.

Now if that ain't just the most terribly thought out statement I seen today.
Susceptibility to the cold, or indeed any virus is all about your immune system. Sure it doesn't preclude you from catching the disease entirely, you can have a healthy, fighting fit, immune system and still catch something, but the fact of the matter is, that if your immune system is in great working order, then the risk of you catching something is an order of magnitude less than someone who has a shitty immune system.
The easiest comparison there is someone like the Bubble Boy, or as it's properly called since it isn't restricted to one person: Severe Combined Immunodeficiency. Which in broad layman's terms means your immune system doesn't work for shit, and as such, your life must be lived in as sterile conditions as possible because otherwise you're likely to die just by coming into contact with something like an article of clothing someone touched while sick.

But I digress. Point being, is look at your childhood. Chances are at some point you caught a cold, and someone else in your family also probably caught it from you, but other people in your family may very well have been passed over by it entirely. Generally an adult as their resistance tends to be much greater than a child's, and as a result, your momma or your poppa took care of you until it was over.

Now I ain't ragging on IHavoc specifically, just giving an informal lesson if y'all don't mind it.
In regards to the manga, while there haven't been any humans for a while, there are lots of animals they're consorting with, and animals can be carriers for all sorts of nastiness in regards to diseases and parasites, not rabies though, just thought I'd say that, there shan't be any old Yeller happening in Suicide Island, Japan is rabies free.

Anyhow, I'm doubting that he'll go into my kind of deep information about survival since it'd make the manga far too technical. But look up hookworms just for a little idea of what can really happen to you when there's no widely available medical treatment and diagnosis.

[GRAXAS]

I would only like to point out that those shields are very poorly designed, any poke to them and they would rotate leaving its user completly exposed.

They should have made bigger shields and/or shields with something to strap to their forearm to give them more control...

[Theoderich]

 

Bows, especially traditional bows, are very, very hard to hunt with. There's a far greater chance of injuring the animal than killing it, so you're in for a long chase until it drops. And without modern arrows with bleeders (small razor blades that sever arteries) that can take quite a while. I don't like hunting with bows because of this, it causes avoidable suffering for the animal.

Developing the muscles to shoot a bow also takes time. They aren't used in most other activities, so to use a heavyweight hunting bow instead of a light target bow takes quite a bit of training.

 

You can always make arrowheads from stone (like the people did during the lithic periods in all parts of the world and some still do today).

Especially the mesolithic people from Europe who hunted deer and boars mainly used arrows with geometric forms and thus elongated cutting edges to rip apart flesh and arteries to kill the prey fast due to shock,stress and blood loss.

Depending on how you aim, you can also oneshot the deer/boar, you just have to penetrate the skull and the cerebrum and it won't live to have a gruesome death.

 

About the muscles, it depends on what kind of bow you're using. Of course it's not easy in the beginning, but as a man, a 30-40 pound bow should be no problem to use. The real problem arises due to the fact that your muscles will wear out very fast and thus make it harder to aim properly the longer you have to keep it drawn, especially if the bow is big (I use a "historic" long bow[160 cm] for fun, and it's really hard to aim properly even after more than 1 year of training, I still have about 5-20 cm deflection on 10m). Another point is that you have to train your finger tips, otherwise you won't be able to shoot properly[it hurts like hell in the beginning, but if you draw the bow inbetween the finger segments, chances are high to hit your arm with the bowstring or shoot off the arrow in some random direction].

 

If you have at least some training, it wouldn't be a problem to do this, though, the making would pose the greater difficulties [especially if you don't know the properties of the different woods provided by your surroundings or fail to identify the species], especially getting a proper bowstring. It would be clever to hunt with spears/ a spear-thrower[like the Atlatl] instead so that more people could engage in hunting.

[imercenary]

You can always make arrowheads from stone (like the people did during the lithic periods in all parts of the world and some still do today).

Especially the mesolithic people from Europe who hunted deer and boars mainly used arrows with geometric forms and thus elongated cutting edges to rip apart flesh and arteries to kill the prey fast due to shock,stress and blood loss.

Depending on how you aim, you can also oneshot the deer/boar, you just have to penetrate the skull and the cerebrum and it won't live to have a gruesome death.

 

About the muscles, it depends on what kind of bow you're using. Of course it's not easy in the beginning, but as a man, a 30-40 pound bow should be no problem to use. The real problem arises due to the fact that your muscles will wear out very fast and thus make it harder to aim properly the longer you have to keep it drawn, especially if the bow is big (I use a "historic" long bow[160 cm] for fun, and it's really hard to aim properly even after more than 1 year of training, I still have about 5-20 cm deflection on 10m). Another point is that you have to train your finger tips, otherwise you won't be able to shoot properly[it hurts like hell in the beginning, but if you draw the bow inbetween the finger segments, chances are high to hit your arm with the bowstring or shoot off the arrow in some random direction].

 

If you have at least some training, it wouldn't be a problem to do this, though, the making would pose the greater difficulties [especially if you don't know the properties of the different woods provided by your surroundings or fail to identify the species], especially getting a proper bowstring. It would be clever to hunt with spears/ a spear-thrower[like the Atlatl] instead so that more people could engage in hunting.

 

With practice, the proper equipment and enough attempts, sure.

 

For someone untrained, using hand-made equipment and done for food purposes, it would be a fluke.

 

You're kinda missing the whole point if you have to cite specific arrowhead designs, bow classes and training regimens.

Edited by imercenary, 27 July 2014 - 02:46 AM.