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Count to 100 before the Staff and Company post


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#31861
pokari

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63 yipe 
also ai somnium by spikesoft is pretty good, spent some hours yesterday playing it
since everything is voice acted its great for lazy guys who don't like reading ....


Glancing at it, it looks possibly to fanservice-y for my tastes. *mutters something about the patriarchy*

Also maybe a bit on the grim and moody side. My appetite for such things exists but is strictly limited, so I'm pretty picky.

64 I've gotten one of the bad ends on the first try... EVERYBODY DIED.... yah... great job


*headpat* :'/

It's okay, I'm sure things will be better next time, or the time after that.

#31862
Feishy Pit Boar

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66 nice counting man

i played 3 hours last night and got 2 more endings - one was meh, but the other was much better


What's wrong with the patriarchy?


also plenty of fan servicy for fujoshiis too



#31863
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67 Oopsie.

In this case, the objectification of women is what's wrong with the Patriarchy.

I do appreciate it when fanservice is egalitarian, but if I'm being totally honest I'm broadly more comfortable when it's only the men getting objectified (well, best would be no one at all). It just seems, I dunno, fairer, given the broader state of the world—and yes, I have double standards.

To be clear, not all fanservice is objectification. But the venn diagram has a really big shared middle portion. Into which that particular game appeared to fall, at a glance.

#31864
Feishy Pit Boar

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68 objectification is necessary to make any utilitarian decision tho

 

ok as long as you're aware of your own double standard...



#31865
penrosecat

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69

 

yeah i love living in a society too

 

and of course there's fan service for women



#31866
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68 objectification is necessary to make any utilitarian decision tho


Objectification and objectivity are not the same thing. :/

(Besides, it's particularly sexual objectification that I'm objecting to in this case, which definitely is not the domain of utilitarianism.)

yeah i love living in a society too
 
and of course there's fan service for women


I have noticed that on average fanservice for women is more toned-down, though (Only on average!). I wonder to what extent that's a cultural thing (e.g. "women shouldn't be crude") vs. a biological one (i.e. testosterone). ~.~

#31867
Feishy Pit Boar

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70


Objectification and objectivity are not the same thing. :/
 

71 How is it not the same thing? The mental process where you distance yourself as observer is the same mental process where you distance others as subject.


The only guy who has freed himself from the bounds of society was an Indian who went by the name of Siddhartha and he said everything was suffering and desires are bad :( Can you imagine our capitalist society without desire? Literally a depression! and not the mental kind!


Edited by Feishy Pit Boar, 06 December 2019 - 05:25 PM.


#31868
pokari

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"Life is pain, your highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something."

72

Objectification isn't about distance. You can quite intimately objectify someone. Indeed, for example, Shakespeare's famous Sonnet 130 (I don't actually like Shakespeare in general but that particular one is cool) was arguably a satirization of the broad tendency to do do in Elizabethan love poetry (though I don't know that the idea of objectification had evolved as such at that point).

Objectification is reducing the subject to an object. Often, that's as an object of desire. Not all dehumanisation is done through distancing; the ways in which one can disregard the personhood of another are quite various.

Edited by pokari, 06 December 2019 - 06:01 PM.


#31869
Feishy Pit Boar

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73 I don't see how Shakespeare's sonnet 130 relate. Robert burns my love is like a red red rose might be a better example imho. Shakespeare's sonnet is more like an inversion of trope. 


Still, objectification is objectification. Whether the subject is willing to be objectified and play along is of debate. In the case of lovers, they mutually agree to be objectified by the other... until they don't, then they split and go separate paths.



#31870
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74

And, I mean, it's even more complicated than that. In a real relationship, we'd have to get down into the subtleties of whether or to what extent there's an understanding that some things are sweet nothings that boil down to mean little more than an "I love you"; or alternatively in some cases... Well, I don't even know where to start. It's real life, it's messy, different people have different wants and needs at different times.

But broadly speaking, I have pretty different standards for what I think is okay in private/personal love lives, and what I think is okay in media. In particular, things that play into ongoing societal perception-based problems—sexism, in this case—I'm much more likely to react to as if it's a black-and-white issue when it's in media. Because then there aren't really any extenuating circumstances—just a direct expression of worldviews.

#31871
Feishy Pit Boar

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72 a very cogent argument 2AM in the morning

it's not like love is as innocuous as it seems - there's always objectification (and power play) within. we normally downplay this at least in the movies as to not frighten the kids



#31872
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73

I actually think my ideas about love were more cynical when I was a kid.

Not so much the shades of grey, but... All the petty jealousy, backstabbing, strife, pain, and drama that can be caused by love were pretty readily evident. My own parents were quite happily married, thankfully, so this was just from observations of Other People.

But even back then, I think I could have articulated that love is only a force for good to the extent that it encourages us to look out for other people (empathy would seem to do this better than love alone, though the two are often hand-in-hand to some degree, albeit not always.)

But what I might have failed to grasp back then is that, for good or ill, we need love (well, most humans do—to different extents for each person on a sliding scale). It is a thing, like sunlight, that we have great difficulty living without. Not having it ultimately affects us physiologically, because we are evolved social creatures (whose psychology and physiology are inextricably linked).

As a result I'm much more sympathetic now to people who get entangled in toxic relationships or seek out love in places that seem inadvisable (whereas kid me would be quick to point out that such people are idiots). You need love from somewhere. And so, the question becomes how to have healthy relationships (be it romantic or platonic, I should say—I don't think humans need romance, just love, but it seems it may sometimes be difficult to get enough love in our hands-off culture, outside of a romantic relationship)—we do need them, so the question is how to go about them. And of course a bunch of people aren't very good at it, this relationship thing, most are just normal. All the more reason I may get upset when culture encourages us to think of these relationships in ways that I think are harmful.

...Which isn't to say I'm going to stop reading trashy romance stories, but I will gripe about them afterwards. And there are certain things that will turn me away entirely, and treating women like thier first purpose is to be objects of sexual fantasy is near the top of that list, partially because of how insidious and harmful that worldview actually is, and how pervasive it is—on bad days it feels like it's a strict majority opinion (at the very least amongst men), and that enrages me.

Edited by pokari, 08 December 2019 - 09:38 PM.


#31873
Feishy Pit Boar

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74 objectification is unavoidable... otherwise Victoria Secrets would go out of business

hell they may go out of business irregardless, thanks to Amazon 



#31874
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75

I nean, Victoria's Secret is not one of the great national institutions that I would be especially remorseful to have lost.

In general I've witnessed more commiseration about how impractical and expensive women's langerie is (even the supposedly more mundane sort), than I have complaints that it's not sufficiently good looking.

More broadly speaking, though—something being unavoidable is very different from it being something not worth working on. Just like—taken to a logcial extreme—conflict between humans is likewise unavoidable, but we don't then conclude that peace treaties are meaningless because someone's going to start another war somewhere regardless.

Often the things you can't fix completely are the ones most worth working on.

Edited by pokari, 09 December 2019 - 07:07 AM.


#31875
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76 the revamping of the entire capitalist system based on objectification and desire would cause a great deal of pain

you would have to jail the millionaires (and billionaires) and strip them of the control of the desire generation system

not that i would particularly mind but they are also the ones who have a lot of body guards and private armies and it's going to be difficult to rally peasants to give up their lives to fight this future

it has been done before though... in other countries



#31876
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77

In the context of this particular discussion, I'd be happy for a more modest revolution, of a cultural understanding that certain things are in bad taste. How much a capitalist framework affects the bounds of that—in particular, advertising (one of the main features of any capitalist society!) will always pull towards the lowest common denominator as much as it can get away with, with no regards for casualties—I don't know.

Honestly, we're way better than we used to be—I remember watching old Bond movies in order of production was a revelation in how bad we were so recently, and how far we've come over the past half-century at that sort of lowest-common-denominator level. But it also seems like maybe one of those diminishing-returns sort of things. Not sure.

#31877
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78 kotowa shoujo 

play it naoooo