32 replies to this topic

[thorongil]

this discussion has hit a wall the moment it started (my opinion) ... luffy always leaves a fight painted in blood wether he is stronger or not doesn't really matter... but since the tashigi + zoro vs monet fight it is clearly hinted that the SHcrew's power (at the very least zoros) is much more than what we have yet seen!! be patient my friend (or something along the lines)

[cole]

I think that Luffy could take on Kizaru specifically, who is the one admiral who we know about at the moment. Kizaru seems like the weakest admiral, and I really think Luffy could take him.

[Baltringue29]

His 2 years of training guided him to master Haki and his Devil Fruit Powers. 1. He can use Haoshoku Haki (King's disposition) to knock out weaker people unconscious at will in contrast to before when it was released only at critical moments. He can also use this skill to affect the minds of creatures around him, such as stopping them from attacking him. 2. He can use Kenbunshoku Haki to predict all the movements of attacks before they happen. He also gained the ability to use this form of haki to sense the presence of enemies far away. 3. He can use Busosoku Haki to strengthen all of his attacks and also harden parts of body (turning them black) to make a powerful offensive or defensive move. He can also now hurt those who possess Devil Fruit Powers, most notably those who possess Logia/Logia like powers. 4. He can use Gear Second to increase the blood circulation limited to certain parts of his body for his attacks, this helps him conserve what would be otherwise wasted energy. 5. When using Gear Third, he can limit the increase in size of what was previously his whole arm to just his first. As a result, he can stretch his arm to launch a much faster attack than before. It's also notable that Luffy completely got rid of the aftereffect of Gear Third (shrinking down in size for a while.) Using these abilities that he developed, he's able to form a new range of different techniques. If there's anything else I missed, please be free to add onto it.

You missed one ability he used on Punk Hazard his fuusen (baloon form) can now not only repel attack by projectile he can now pin-point where they will rebound, effectively counter-attacking opponents with their own bullet/cannonball if they aren't haki improved. As for the future i'd say blackbeard and Aikainu will be their last opponent, meanwhile he need to -get rid/make friend- of the remaining shishibukai/four Emperors (one is comming toward them in chapter 694). Shank will definitely become an ally along with Boa Hancock, Jimbei(i bet he'll become the new nakama of Luffy) and the remaining troops of Whitebeard in an upcomming war with the world government/marines. For the next chapters it's definitely a battle with Joker and then Big Mom.

About Zoro and Tachigi don't you think Tachigi may be the girl of Zoro's master and her death being her joining the marine (maybe with a loss of memory/apparent death)?

Edited by Baltringue29, 12 January 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[Tru3Crimson]

You missed one ability he used on Punk Hazard his fuusen (baloon form) can now not only repel attack by projectile he can now pin-point where they will rebound, effectively counter-attacking opponents with their own bullet/cannonball if they aren't haki improved.

What you are saying was a 'missed' ability was wrong, that was no ability more so a technique he developed when combining his already known balloon form by adding haki. You may want to re-read because it doesn't seem like you understood v

His 2 years of training guided him to master Haki and his Devil Fruit Powers.

1. He can use Haoshoku Haki (King's disposition) to knock out weaker people unconscious at will in contrast to before when it was released only at critical moments. He can also use this skill to affect the minds of creatures around him, such as stopping them from attacking him.
2. He can use Kenbunshoku Haki to predict all the movements of attacks before they happen. He also gained the ability to use this form of haki to sense the presence of enemies far away.
3. He can use Busosoku Haki to strengthen all of his attacks and also harden parts of body (turning them black) to make a powerful offensive or defensive move. He can also now hurt those who possess Devil Fruit Powers, most notably those who possess Logia/Logia like powers.
4. He can use Gear Second to increase the blood circulation limited to certain parts of his body for his attacks, this helps him conserve what would be otherwise wasted energy.
5. When using Gear Third, he can limit the increase in size of what was previously his whole arm to just his first. As a result, he can stretch his arm to launch a much faster attack than before. It's also notable that Luffy completely got rid of the aftereffect of Gear Third (shrinking down in size for a while.)

Using these abilities that he developed, he's able to form a new range of different techniques.

If there's anything else I missed, please be free to add onto it.

[Skrymir]

I like how people are already saying Luffy's strength is nowhere near a Yonkou's strength when we haven't even seen a glimpse of their abilities other than Shanks and Blackbeard. Yonkou's are titled by how much influence they have, for all we know Kaidou and Big Mum only have their titles due to having very capable subordinates and high charisma and are in fact themselves quite weak. In other words, we may have a Yonkou version of Buggy.

[SamBam]

Okay here's my opinion on current/whitebeard war strength rankings and some peak strength rankings.In this ranking someone who is .5 above someone else would beat them about 9 out of 10 times in a fair fight.
3.0-Gold Roger (peak)
2.5-Whitebeard (peak)
(2.2-2.3)- Garp/Sengoku (peak), Blackbeard (maybe current, I'm not sure about him either)
???-Mihawk (I honestly haven’t seen enough of Mihawk and I’ve always had this stupid theory that Shanks fully using his Haki would win over Mihawk. Though I have absolutely no evidence so I will put him as stronger until I do. I always assumed there fights were about swordsmanship only.)
2.0-(other) Younkou
1.5- 3 Admirals (whitebeard war)
1.0- top tier whitebeard pirates (Jozu and Marco) and high tier shichibukai (Donflamingo and Kuma)
0.9-Luffy (I bet he will reach 1.0 in this next arc as I don’t see him winning against Donflamingo easily.)
Also for Skrymir “for all we know Kaidou and Big Mum only have their titles due to having very capable subordinates and high charisma and are in fact themselves quite weak.” While this is true with the way they have been built up and how every other younkou crew we’ve seen defines themselves based on the strength of the captain I would bet against this theory.
p.s. Please respond if you think I’m crazy/on to something as I am genuinely curious.

[flowsthead]

Okay here's my opinion on current/whitebeard war strength rankings and some peak strength rankings.In this ranking someone who is .5 above someone else would beat them about 9 out of 10 times in a fair fight.
3.0-Gold Roger (peak)
2.5-Whitebeard (peak)
(2.2-2.3)- Garp/Sengoku (peak), Blackbeard (maybe current, I'm not sure about him either)
???-Mihawk (I honestly haven’t seen enough of Mihawk and I’ve always had this stupid theory that Shanks fully using his Haki would win over Mihawk. Though I have absolutely no evidence so I will put him as stronger until I do. I always assumed there fights were about swordsmanship only.)
2.0-(other) Younkou
1.5- 3 Admirals (whitebeard war)
1.0- top tier whitebeard pirates (Jozu and Marco) and high tier shichibukai (Donflamingo and Kuma)
0.9-Luffy (I bet he will reach 1.0 in this next arc as I don’t see him winning against Donflamingo easily.)
Also for Skrymir “for all we know Kaidou and Big Mum only have their titles due to having very capable subordinates and high charisma and are in fact themselves quite weak.” While this is true with the way they have been built up and how every other younkou crew we’ve seen defines themselves based on the strength of the captain I would bet against this theory.
p.s. Please respond if you think I’m crazy/on to something as I am genuinely curious.

Considering that the entire Marine Force and Shichibukai was brought in to face one Yonkou, I think your Garp, Sengoku, Blackbeard, and Mihawk are way too high. I also think your admirals, Shichibukai, and top pirates are low. Marco and Joz were fighting evenly with Kizaru and Aokiji until they got distracted by Squardo stabbing Whitebeard, and Vista was fighting evenly with Mihawk. Blackbeard was scared of fighting Akainu, despite having so many level 6 Impel Down pirates with him. And although it was clear that Whitebeard was stronger than Akainu, none of the admirals shied away from facing Whitebeard one on one.

The Shichibukai are at all different levels. It's clear that Moria was the weakest of the Shichibukai, but the rest of the Shichibukai have an unquantifiable strength. Until Doflamingo shook off Aokiji's Ice Age, I would have said the Admirals are stronger than all of them, but that might not be the case. Crocodile might actually be one of the weaker Shichibukai since we never saw him using Haki, probably because he relied too much on his Logia. If Crodoile were to learn Haki, he would be Admiral level. Jinbei is probably mid level Shichibukai, since he is clearly weaker than Akainu. Mihawk, Doflamingo, and Hancock are probably the three strongest Shichibukai because they are very proficient at using Haki, and two of them have Conqueror's Haki. They are probably admiral strength.

So if we maintain Yonko at a 2.0, then I would say Admirals are a 1.5-1.7, top Shichibukai are a 1.4-1.6, top Whitebeard pirates are a 1.4-1.6, low Shichibukai are a 1.1-1.3, Luffy pre-time skip is a 0.8 or 0.9, and post time skip is a 1.1-1.4. Garp and Sengoku are high admiral level so 1.6-1.7, and Garp at least is probably decreasing because he is old. Roger was a 2.5 at most, but probably a 2.1 or 2.2. Whitebeard was a strong rival for Roger, not someone who got decimated by Roger.

I like how people are already saying Luffy's strength is nowhere near a Yonkou's strength when we haven't even seen a glimpse of their abilities other than Shanks and Blackbeard. Yonkou's are titled by how much influence they have, for all we know Kaidou and Big Mum only have their titles due to having very capable subordinates and high charisma and are in fact themselves quite weak. In other words, we may have a Yonkou version of Buggy.

This is unlikely. Buggy is a special case where his association with Roger is what caused him to gain such a large following, and most of the strong and smart pirates automatically can tell that Buggy is super weak. The ones that actually follow him are idiots.

Kaidou we know was a "rival" for Moria, although I imagine that Moria is overestimating their rivalry. They might have started out in the same place, but it's clear that Kaidou is probably way, way stronger than Moria. We also know that Shanks and Kaidou had a brief battle during the Whitebeard War, and we know Shanks is the real deal so I doubt Kaidou is weak. Big Mom as well from the little we have seen of her doesn't strike me as charismatic. She is probably ridiculously strong as well. All of her subordinates seem very afraid of her.

[MGIBBS]

About Zoro and Tachigi don't you think Tachigi may be the girl of Zoro's master and her death being her joining the marine (maybe with a loss of memory/apparent death)?

I really don't see tachigi being the girl that zoro new since we have seen her corpse, also there is no reason to fake her death. I believe it was mentioned somewhere that zoro's master was divorced so it could be that Tachigi is a sister to the girl that zoro knew.

[Dragon88]

Considering that the entire Marine Force and Shichibukai was brought in to face one Yonkou, I think your Garp, Sengoku, Blackbeard, and Mihawk are way too high. I also think your admirals, Shichibukai, and top pirates are low. Marco and Joz were fighting evenly with Kizaru and Aokiji until they got distracted by Squardo stabbing Whitebeard, and Vista was fighting evenly with Mihawk. Blackbeard was scared of fighting Akainu, despite having so many level 6 Impel Down pirates with him. And although it was clear that Whitebeard was stronger than Akainu, none of the admirals shied away from facing Whitebeard one on one.

The Shichibukai are at all different levels. It's clear that Moria was the weakest of the Shichibukai, but the rest of the Shichibukai have an unquantifiable strength. Until Doflamingo shook off Aokiji's Ice Age, I would have said the Admirals are stronger than all of them, but that might not be the case. Crocodile might actually be one of the weaker Shichibukai since we never saw him using Haki, probably because he relied too much on his Logia. If Crodoile were to learn Haki, he would be Admiral level. Jinbei is probably mid level Shichibukai, since he is clearly weaker than Akainu. Mihawk, Doflamingo, and Hancock are probably the three strongest Shichibukai because they are very proficient at using Haki, and two of them have Conqueror's Haki. They are probably admiral strength.

So if we maintain Yonko at a 2.0, then I would say Admirals are a 1.5-1.7, top Shichibukai are a 1.4-1.6, top Whitebeard pirates are a 1.4-1.6, low Shichibukai are a 1.1-1.3, Luffy pre-time skip is a 0.8 or 0.9, and post time skip is a 1.1-1.4. Garp and Sengoku are high admiral level so 1.6-1.7, and Garp at least is probably decreasing because he is old. Roger was a 2.5 at most, but probably a 2.1 or 2.2. Whitebeard was a strong rival for Roger, not someone who got decimated by Roger.



This is unlikely. Buggy is a special case where his association with Roger is what caused him to gain such a large following, and most of the strong and smart pirates automatically can tell that Buggy is super weak. The ones that actually follow him are idiots.

Kaidou we know was a "rival" for Moria, although I imagine that Moria is overestimating their rivalry. They might have started out in the same place, but it's clear that Kaidou is probably way, way stronger than Moria. We also know that Shanks and Kaidou had a brief battle during the Whitebeard War, and we know Shanks is the real deal so I doubt Kaidou is weak. Big Mom as well from the little we have seen of her doesn't strike me as charismatic. She is probably ridiculously strong as well. All of her subordinates seem very afraid of her.

 

 

Considering that the entire Marine Force and Shichibukai was brought in to face one Yonkou, I think your Garp, Sengoku, Blackbeard, and Mihawk are way too high. I also think your admirals, Shichibukai, and top pirates are low. Marco and Joz were fighting evenly with Kizaru and Aokiji until they got distracted by Squardo stabbing Whitebeard, and Vista was fighting evenly with Mihawk. Blackbeard was scared of fighting Akainu, despite having so many level 6 Impel Down pirates with him. And although it was clear that Whitebeard was stronger than Akainu, none of the admirals shied away from facing Whitebeard one on one.

The Shichibukai are at all different levels. It's clear that Moria was the weakest of the Shichibukai, but the rest of the Shichibukai have an unquantifiable strength. Until Doflamingo shook off Aokiji's Ice Age, I would have said the Admirals are stronger than all of them, but that might not be the case. Crocodile might actually be one of the weaker Shichibukai since we never saw him using Haki, probably because he relied too much on his Logia. If Crodoile were to learn Haki, he would be Admiral level. Jinbei is probably mid level Shichibukai, since he is clearly weaker than Akainu. Mihawk, Doflamingo, and Hancock are probably the three strongest Shichibukai because they are very proficient at using Haki, and two of them have Conqueror's Haki. They are probably admiral strength.

So if we maintain Yonko at a 2.0, then I would say Admirals are a 1.5-1.7, top Shichibukai are a 1.4-1.6, top Whitebeard pirates are a 1.4-1.6, low Shichibukai are a 1.1-1.3, Luffy pre-time skip is a 0.8 or 0.9, and post time skip is a 1.1-1.4. Garp and Sengoku are high admiral level so 1.6-1.7, and Garp at least is probably decreasing because he is old. Roger was a 2.5 at most, but probably a 2.1 or 2.2. Whitebeard was a strong rival for Roger, not someone who got decimated by Roger.



This is unlikely. Buggy is a special case where his association with Roger is what caused him to gain such a large following, and most of the strong and smart pirates automatically can tell that Buggy is super weak. The ones that actually follow him are idiots.

Kaidou we know was a "rival" for Moria, although I imagine that Moria is overestimating their rivalry. They might have started out in the same place, but it's clear that Kaidou is probably way, way stronger than Moria. We also know that Shanks and Kaidou had a brief battle during the Whitebeard War, and we know Shanks is the real deal so I doubt Kaidou is weak. Big Mom as well from the little we have seen of her doesn't strike me as charismatic. She is probably ridiculously strong as well. All of her subordinates seem very afraid of her.

 

I like your ranking and it makes sense but I think you are underestimating Mihawk.  Remember he was a rival to Shank who use to battle him from time to time.  Even if he is not Shank's level which I think is probably the case now, he might be stronger then the admirals or their level.  I would not rank Mihawk at all actually, he is  a ?.

Younkous

Admirals

WB division commanders

VAs

With Shichubukais there is too much difference in levels.  Mihawk can't judge, Kuma don't know what the hell is happening with him.  Out of the other ones I would say Doflamingo and Hancock are the strongest and probably at the same level.  Those 2 seem to be somewhere at the WB division commander level.  I don't think they are at the admiral level because no matter what Doflamingo did not want to continue the fight against Aokiji and also what the admirals showed seems to suggest they are stronger then Doflamingo and Hancock.  There is just too much variables.

And Moria and Crocodiles are the weakest 2 shichubukais excluding Buggy of course.  They relied only on their df and intellect.  And both of them are very smart and cunning and are not direct fighters.  Crocodile was freaken taking over a country using his brain and Moria was creating an extremely powerful army zombie to create ultimate soldier who would follow him completely.  So in terms of combat those 2 were the weakest and I would say even VAs would beat them in a one on one combat.  That is 2 years ago though.  Jinbei is in the middle and seems to be somewhere between VAs and WB division commanders.  Law have no idea, just know he is stronger then VAs and I would say so far I would guess somewhere between WB division commanders and VAs just like Luffy seems to be.

[Masserati]

Can't say this for absolute certainty but I have the strong opinion that Hawkeye is definitely the strongest Shichibukai, there are definetly points in the manga and anime when the other shichibukai spoke of their respect (and fear) of Mihawk and his strength. Also its Shanks that probably is no longer a match for Mihawk. Mihawk sought him off for duels all the time until Shanks lost one of his arms. Mihawk probably stopped dueling him because he made the judgment that it wouldn't be a fair match anymore.

 

Well actually, that's probably not true, it's already been said that losing an arm did not weaken Shanks in any way so it's unlikely that was the reason. Besides, Shanks very appearance in the battle at Marineford was enough to bring the entire war to an end despite the Marines having just beaten both Whitebeard and Ace in the same battle, and no one actually challenged him when he said that there was to be no more fighting, not even Mihawk - whether it was out of respect or some other reason I'm not sure, but if Mihawk could beat Shanks in a straight fight then what better place to do it than right there and then with the Marines in tow?

[Dragon88]

Well actually, that's probably not true, it's already been said that losing an arm did not weaken Shanks in any way so it's unlikely that was the reason. Besides, Shanks very appearance in the battle at Marineford was enough to bring the entire war to an end despite the Marines having just beaten both Whitebeard and Ace in the same battle, and no one actually challenged him when he said that there was to be no more fighting, not even Mihawk - whether it was out of respect or some other reason I'm not sure, but if Mihawk could beat Shanks in a straight fight then what better place to do it than right there and then with the Marines in tow?

Well Mihawk to me did not want to fight Shanks because he sees him as a friend not because he is afraid to fight him.  You actually think Mihawk is scared to fight someone.  He wanted to test WB and now you are saying he was scared to fight Shanks.  Its not about who is stronger, they are friends and he told the marines fighting Shanks was not part of the deal so he left, it did not matter what the hell the marines would do he is not going to fight his friend their.  With WB he had not attachment to him.  And in the whole battle it was interesting Mihawk just did enough to keep the shichubukai title, he really did not care much about the battle because aside from his title nothing else much mattered in that fight.  Doflamingo and Hancock was the same too.  They really did not care about the outcome.  They just did their job in order to keep the title.  The ones that to me seemed to be in the battle was Moria, Jinbei and Crocodile.  They actually went all out in the battle along with the robot Kuma.  The other 3 just did enough to keep the title of shichubukai.

[Japan_Meech]

Alot you guys keep saying the admirals compare to the yonkou but thats just way off. When shanks came to marine hq did you not see the fear in akainu's face. Shanks is on another level as far as being a pirate. For him to strike fear in everyone like that shows a lot. Luffys power has yet to be seen but consider the fact he trained with the dark king. He is on "some" vice admirals level and that means stronger than smoker. So the yonkou is on another level back in the seris it takes the admirals and the shichibukai to rivals the yonkou. So to say the yonkou fear admirals its the other way around. Dont underestimate the yonkou only garp and sengoku could fight against gol d. roger and whitebeard. Even though whitebeard died he was injured severely by squado because akainu knew a full powered whitebeard theres no shot

[klauq]

Hi all, I am new here. This conversation really makes me interested.

 

Considering that the entire Marine Force and Shichibukai was brought in to face one Yonkou, I think your Garp, Sengoku, Blackbeard, and Mihawk are way too high. I also think your admirals, Shichibukai, and top pirates are low. Marco and Joz were fighting evenly with Kizaru and Aokiji until they got distracted by Squardo stabbing Whitebeard, and Vista was fighting evenly with Mihawk. Blackbeard was scared of fighting Akainu, despite having so many level 6 Impel Down pirates with him. And although it was clear that Whitebeard was stronger than Akainu, none of the admirals shied away from facing Whitebeard one on one.

 

They were assembled to fight with the whole of Whitebeard's crew, not just Whitebeard.  But I agree with you about Marco and Joz, they are almost as strong as the Admirals.

 

Garp+Sengoku should be able to defeat Whitebeard alone. 

 

Personally, I think Luffy's father, Dragon, is at Whitebeard's level. But that's just my imagination haha.

 

A Yonkou must at least be at the same level with the Fleet Admiral. If not, the marines would have terminated them since they don't have the immunity like Sichibukai. A Yonkou's whole group might be as strong as the whole of Marine. From the Marineford War, we saw that if the Sichibukai were not there to help the marine, maybe Marine would have lost. And that is just one Yonkou's group they are fighting!

 

Back to Luffy, he should halfway to a Yonkou's level. I don't think he is at an Admiral's level yet, but he is almost there.