36 replies to this topic

[Comadrin]

Vance Finiraldi,

 

Thanks for the heads up on that.  The second translation makes a great deal more sense in the context of the story, as I had been wondering about how the other professional players could support a family and more comfortable lifestyle and not have a second job.

 

It also makes more sense, given Rei's nearly "Sam-the-Eagle" serious (almost grim) character and sense of guilt/responsibility.  I can't see him moving out on his own, if he had to get most of the means to do so from his adopted father.

 

Kudos to both translation teams, though.  This seems to be one of the most difficult manga to translate that I've come across.

[B'Rat]

About "lion's share", I confirm that the official italian translation (which is up to volume 8 ) says that it's the money Rei sends to Kouda, with the president happily suggesting that he just stores them until later when the protagonist insist in not wanting them.

 

Anyway, I agree, it's in a class of its own

Edited by B'Rat, 06 September 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[Comadrin]

Well, Gotou has been shown as having something approaching a redeeming quality, but he is still the thirty-something year old body builder who brutally beat the crap out of a fifteen or sixteen year old somewhat geeky boy who was trying to protect his sister.  He (Gotou) was quite capable of stopping and incapacitating Rei without beating and stomping his face in.  While I realize that humans are a very complex mixture of emotions and impulses, I still have to rate him as getting top scores on the cad meter and the sociopath meter.  His undisguised glee in badly beating a young boy is definitely enough for me to judge that.

[Comadrin]

Well, we now have more information on the background of one of my favorite manga.  Rei busted his butt to be helpful in his adopted household, and Kyouko saw it as him trying to convince her mother of how wonderful he was.  We haven't seen much of the mother other than her trying to calm the father down when Kyouko behaved like a complete bully and brat.  I come from a family with adopted children (not me), and the most heinous crime (never set down in writing, but understood none the less) was referring to the adopted child as less a part of the family as those born to the family.  It was kind of an unwritten anathema:  You just DIDN'T DO THAT!  Referring to an adopted child as other than real family was like telling your mother you hated her.  It just didn't happen with us.  Hell, we were human and we all banged heads occasionally, but there were unwritten lines that we just didn't cross.  Maybe I grew up in an incredibly well-adjusted family, but that's how it was.  As to the latest posts on the main page claiming Gotou's pain and wonderful character, I will stand by my previous post.

 

As to the latest chapter, I am annoyed to be left on a cliff hanger.  Hina Chan comes home late and is in tears.  I'm hoping nothing terrible has happened, as I'm incapable (as a reader) of rendering mayhem (in the literal sense) on anyone who could put such a wonderful girl in such a state.  Yes, I am a chauvinistic/sexist jerk who believes that taking care of adolescent girls is one of the main duties in the life of an adult male.

[Vance Finiraldi]

Actually, it was just Ayumu, the brother, who was accusing Rei of scoring brownie points with the Kouda mom, wasn't it? From what I'm seeing in Ch.51, all I'm getting from Kyouko is 1) "I can try to push my chores onto Rei 'cause he does 'em a lot anyway" and 2) "Rei, you creep me out", which is kinda what we learned to expect from her at this point. XP

At least, I'm glad it came from Ayumu because it allows us to define him in ways beyond "implied shut-in/hikikomori," "Most Likely to Become a NEET," or "gives up too easily." Now we know he was a likely a little shit, too, but in a different way.

And once again, Rei makes it hard to determine whether or not he's grown to truly enjoy shogi or just uses it as a coping mechanism. I do hope we get an arc at some point going over what shogi has come to mean to him in the present.

All that aside, I'm excited now that we've finally reached a story arc for Hina, especially since Umino has been hinting at her role as deuteragonist since at least Chapter 15. Now we get to see how effectively Umino will pull it off now that it's clear that she's on her way toward a larger role.

[Comadrin]

Reading chapter 51 again, you are quite correct in your observation.  It takes Ayumu from "pitiful shut-in" to a sullen, completely self-centered bundle of grudges.  It paints quite an ugly picture of the Kouda family dynamic.  They definitely live in an upper middle class home, and have all the advantages of money.  The parents seem to be well meaning, yet totally clueless about what goes on in their children's heads, and the children themselves are broken.  While Rei's presence was a catalyst in their emotional collapse, he was not the cause.  Whether Kyouko and Ayumu became the way they are from nature, nurture, or a combination of both, it's an extremely toxic situation, and Rei did the best thing he could by getting out on his own.  Ayumu (with whom Rei seems to have no present contact) appears content to merely hate, but Kyouko is still actively showing up to make Rei (and herself) miserable.   

 

Contrast this with the Kawamoto family.  They are poor, parentless and live in a beat up shack. Most "upper crust" types would consider them loud and vulgar.  Akari and the grandfather are the only adults, and all of them have been through a very painful trauma about the parents and grandmother.  Regardless, their home is full of warmth, love, and communication.  In chapter 54, the grandfather did exactly the right thing when praising Hina over the bullying.  They act like a real family, and interact with each other all the time, unlike the Kouda family, who (to my way of thinking) present a facade of middle class normalcy, and everyone goes their own clueless or self-destructive way.

 

Rei's epiphany, for want of a better word, is opening up some very interesting ways the plot can go.  I'm pleased with the mental and emotional growth he's shown from his interaction with Shimada and with his High School "Science/Shogi Club," and look forward to seeing where it's all going to go.  

[Blue Flaming Wings]

I'm glad I found this thread and read through it. This is a much better place for me to post bomb than in the comments section.

 

I feel like Rei and Hina's relationship has taken a new turn. I mentioned this in the comment section but I'll restate it for new readers: chapter 52 saw a change in how Rei views Hina. Her line about not regretting her choice, even if it means she'll end up alone, because she did nothing wrong effected Rei strongly emotionally. In a sense, with that line Hina showed Rei a new "route", one that lead him away from viewing himself as the cuccoo bird that has caused the Kouda family to suffer, to understanding that even though he has ended up isolated and alone he still has done nothing wrong. This revelation has caused Rei to feel like he owes Hina a debt, which would later lead into him trying to find a way to stop her bullying. 

 

But, at the same time, I think it's a bit more subtle than that. There's the lines where Rei thinks, "I felt the urge to immediately hunt down every person who made her cry and tear them all to pieces, but ... 'That won't fix anything.' 'That won't do a thing to help her.' So...Think. Think. What should I do?" Look at the progression of these thoughts: First, Hina cries and his first, instinctual reaction is to find the people who made her cry and "tear them all to pieces", this violent urge is very different from anything we've ever seen from Rei and seemingly has nothing to do with the debt. It's only after that, when that subconscious, instinctual urge fades, he tries to think of other ways to help her because of the debt.

 

I do not necessarily think that these subconscious feelings are romantic in nature, at least not yet. However, I do think it's important to note that when Rei talks to his sensei about Hina he lists her personality, good looks and admits to the fact that she's important to him, while only after explaining that that he owes her a debt. So he has these feelings for her, which I believe are those of a older brother for a younger sister at the moment, and he's using the excuse of him owing her a debt to rationalize the decision to act out on those feelings to help Hina.

 

I look forward to seeing how Rei responds to this "epiphany" in the future - especially in regards to his loving/hating shogi and his family dynamics.

[Comadrin]

Powerful.  

 

First of all, I'm proud of Rei's homeroom teacher.  He understands bullying like few teachers I had (admittedly over 40 years ago) did.  I understand it's even worse today (I have a twenty-one year old niece who caught a great deal of crap for being adopted from Korea).  I was a guy, and had it a lot easier than my sister did (same slightly geeky literary oriented middle school student type).  I was, unlike her, not averse to taking a baseball bat to people (always away from teachers and the professional narkers).  In the late 1960's early 1970's, most teachers, especially the "manly" PE teachers, normally stood up for the bullies, and acted just like Hina's homeroom teacher.  Parents of bullies seemed to be already primed with plausible counters to their sociopathic offspring in any parent/school meeting (almost as though they knew exactly what their children were and had all the responses ready made).  Anyway, total kudos to him for his response to Rei's questions and advice seeking.

 

Kudos to Rei for bringing the baseball idol of the school Takahashi aboard [gentlemanly, simple minded (in the good sense), and all around good guy], into the problem.  How in the world can Umino Sensei make secondary characters so damned real?  Only Ririko Sensei of Koi Dano ai Dano, or Kodama Sensei of Sakamichi no Apollon have made secondary character of such depth.  Takahashi, you are da man!  I'll back you against any of Adachi Mitsuru's baseball heroes.

 

Umino Sensei:  Thank you for bringing one of the most heinous crimes among adolescents home to us, with all its' horror and brutality.  And thank you for bringing it to us (and your demographic) with what can be done agains it.  

 

Also, thanks Vance for reminding me of my early education in Greek drama!

[Comadrin]

Rei's comment at the end of chapter 62 was perfect.  Seeing him grow in the course of this manga is fantastic.  Umino Chica is a genius storyteller.  I'm also hoping that Nikaido gets better quickly.  He's a great character in his own right.

[Blue Flaming Wings]

So, I mentioned this several chapters ago during the Ladybug Tree arc, but I think that the thing that Hina saved Rei from, the thing he owes a debt to her for, is the fate of "Going down the wrong path". In particular, that would be the path of doubt and fear. I had thought that this was the doubt of being adopted into Kouda family, the fear that he was really like a cuckoo that had stolen into a nest and pushed a bird's real children away to get all it's love and affection - something he nearly believed due to Kyouko's verbal abuse. However, I realized that this may not be fully the case. The thing he was doubting, the thing he was beginning to hate, was shogi. When Rei first learned shogi he learned it in order to play against his father, he liked it the best when he could stump the man and really make his father think about his next move, but he didn't actually have any fondness for the game itself. When Mr. Kouda came to him after his family died he had asked one simple question, "Do you like shogi?" and Rei said yes ... which we find out from his narration was a lie.

 

I think this was the event he was doubting, second guessing himself over. Should he have told the truth and said no? Mr. Kouda may not have adopted him and that would have left Rei to face the unknown, but saying yes put him on the path of ruining the Kouda family (in his eyes), facing isolation (the Ladybug Tree) and down the path of a professional shogi player - where he struggled both with high expectations and the pressure to constantly win. He may have well given up and quit shogi all together if Hina had said what she did to him. Afterwards, we see his (misguided) determination - to succeed in his games and give the reward money to Hina. I do not think it's a coincidence that he became the Newcomer King after that talk (hell, I think the only reason why he applied for the Newcomer Championship was for Hina's sake). 

 

...I also think that if the story of how he first learned shogi ever comes out that Hina is going to become determined to get good enough at shogi to make Rei really think about his moves, but that is another matter entirely.

[Comadrin]

BFW, I thought about your post for a while, and agreed with most of it.  The one thing your post didn't point out is that Rei is a totally badass shougi player.  When he doesn't let his emotions and anxiety (neuroses?) get it the way, he's as close to unbeatable as they get.  His stepfather is a professional with far more experience than Rei.  Rei whupped his butt.  Rei pounded Issa (10 years his senior) early on in the manga.  He's only the fourth middle schooler to become pro.  Does that mean he's the ultimate shougi player of all time?  No, but it means that he is an incredible player, similar to the current meijin (the first middle-schooler to go pro).  Rei's biggest problem is his mental and emotional instability (the lad has a whole lot more on his mind than any teenager should have to put up with), which definitely stunted his social and emotional growth and seems to have hindered his playing ability on several occasions.  At the same time, he's an "All Arounder," which is an advantage in most sports and professions (think of Eddy Merckx in bicycling, with a combination of more grand tour wins, stage wins, sprint wins, and mountain climbing wins than any other cyclist, or Willie Mays, who had a fabulous home run record, and is tied with Golden Glove wins as the greatest all time fielder).  I think that a large part of the denigration, sarcasm, and downright hostility he gets from other pro players is due more to their intimidation about what he is able to achieve than to their disdain of him (not to mention jealousy).  Most of them probably knock him around verbally because he is sensitive and easily bullied, as opposed to the Bobby Fisher type player (annoying mannerisms designed to ruin the opponents concentration) that he defeated in the Newcomer Championship semi-finals.  They wouldn't say much to the annoyance, but jumped all over Rei, and then we find out that the annoyer was really popular with others.  Why wouldn't Rei be popular?  Simply because he can royally kick ass, and is really scary as a result.  

 

I kind of got wrapped around the axle talking about Rei, but he was only two matches away from going up against the champion for one of the shougi master titles.  He ain't a punk from the pack of newbies!  He (to a lot of the established pros) is a real threat.  

Edited by Comadrin, 25 February 2016 - 06:37 AM.

[Blue Flaming Wings]

The fact that Rei is a real threat to most professional shogi players isn't really in contention - what I was thinking about was how he personally feels towards shogi. Two images that struck me is the image of child-Rei adrift in a dark sea (which represents his life and general emotional state) clutching at a shogi board and the Ladybug Bush itself - the image of him hiding in the bushes reading from a book about pro moves while other kids played. There's a real sense of dependence on the game - the sense that Rei plays less because he enjoys it and more because he needs it (I'm reminded of that talk between his teacher and the president of the Shogi/Science club and their asking if Rei even liked shogi ... which mind broke him). 

 

As mentioned earlier, when Rei first learned the game he played not so much for the game itself but to watch his father's reaction. Since then he lost that, to the point where in his match against him Shimada said, "Now your looking at me," when Rei stopped underestimating him. In his latest match, right after he thought, "Well then, I'll show you, let's see if I make a mistake or not" and was about to make a reckless move he remembered Nikaidou and it was implied that Nikaidou's words helped center him. For Rei, it's definitely implied that he becomes a better player when he is aware of his opponent and when he's aware of those who support him as well - his emotions have a huge role in how well he does as a pro. 

 

As such, my prediction is that as the manga goes on and he becomes more emotionally stable he will get better at shogi as well. 

[Comadrin]

I agree.  I wasn't holding it as a bone of contention, I just felt it needed to be amplified to explain several of the recent chapters.  It's one of those things that happen in fiction (and in real life), where Draco Malfoy can murder children in public and people find excuses, whereas Harry Potter can pass gas in a public restroom and people fall all over themselves for reasons why he should get the death penalty.  One only has to look at contemporary politics to see the truth of this.  You stole my thunder (I'm being facetious and envious) about the Ladybug Bush and his love/hate relationship with shougi (and put it very well), and I wanted to throw my two cents in about why nearly all the higher ranking shougi players felt the need to denigrate and belittle Rei.  

[Blue Flaming Wings]

I see. I do agree that Rei's fellow shogi players were being too hard on him, yet at the same time it felt a bit like they were onto something - with a bit of authorial Word of God thrown in. Rei is inexperienced, and is rather (over?)confident in his skills when he's "in the zone" so to speak. The example I gave of Nikaido and his latest match is a great example of that - the "Let's see if I make a mistake" mindset. That's why it's good that he has someone to ground him and bring him back to earth, he still has room to grow as a player and a person.

[Blue Flaming Wings]

Sorry for the double-post though the last one was a while ago.

 

I think that if Kyouko ever appears again to do her whole verbal abuse/manipulative bitch thing, she will find out that Kiriyama is much more mature than before and harder to handle. Part of this has to do with the revelation he had from Hina - the whole "I did nothing wrong", but I think the larger part has to do with the father. Rei stared him down as kid who was far more of an adult than he could ever hope of being, and the father used the "cuckoo;s nest" analogy on him - which Rei reacted violently to. The whole "Why don't you go sit naked in a tree and eat some bugs?" thing was him realizing that the whole animal metaphor fell flat - that human's aren't animals and can decide. And he decided to seduce another woman and leave his family behind.

[Blue Flaming Wings]

Sorry again for yet another double post. 

 

But something has just occurred to me. Early on in the manga Rei was "determined" to win against Shimada so he could face off against Gotou - he was fueled by rage and his complicated situation. And he lost. Later, when Hina was bullied, he was again "determined" to win, and in this case to a larger degree stating that he couldn't lose ever again, because he thought that he needed the money for her. And this time around he succeeded - so much so that he won the entire Newcomer King's tournament (though other things happened later on with Nikaido's health). For Rei, the source of the motivation was a big factor on whether he won or lose. Whether it is a selfish motivation (facing Gotou out of rage) or a selfless one (not wanting to lose to get money to give to Hina because of his 'debt" to her ... how many mental gymnastics do you have to do to get there?) 

[Comadrin]

BFW: Don't worry about the double posts, especially when separated by months.  Keep up your commentary and keep me thinking (I'm definitely one of those people who do better with others stimulating my meagre critical faculties)!  I've started "Latest Chapter Discussions" where I've been the only person posting on same.    As to your latest post (07 Nov), I couldn't agree more.  Rei is moving from an anger motivation to a more rational and cold motivation (revenge is a dish best served cold?).  Rather than "kick ass due to anger issues," he has become, while more deeply involved emotionally, a great deal more dispassionate about shougi and winning.  Witness his "sort of epiphany" about solving the long unsolved shougi problem.  Due to his love of Hina, his interactions with her sociopathic father (which you more than ably pointed out), and his anger about Nikaido (and his remembering Nikaido's somewhat over-emotional advice), he has grown incredibly, both as a shougi player and as a human being.  He's one of those who gets more badass at his vocation even as he gets more sensitive about others, including his adversaries.  Way to grow up, bro!