17 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

I ran into a comic where a college teacher has displayed (but censored) sexual fantasies about various females he comes into contact with each episode. This was removed from baboto deemed to be inappropriate or something (I can't recall name)

Another called Kodomo no Jikan is about a teacher who is involved in a nonsexual love interest relationship with a outrageous, but underage studant, this is also not on batoto, presumably for the same reason.

Now what ever one might think of your censorship policy (might someone please tell me its purpose?)

These two comics clearly deserve censorship much, much, much, (to the nth degree) more, yet still remain:

This one
http://vatoto.com/comic/_/comics/higanbana-no-saku-yoru-ni-r2673
A teach continously rapes and eventually murders a very underage student who is also being bullied by her peers (which is why she is targeted) Oh yeah, not even respite in the after life, evil spirits that consume souls (presumably destroying their existence?) make sure to that. (I guess in this fictional world, only the evil people exist on after death) This comic is disgustingly shocking.

This one
http://vatoto.com/comic/_/comics/kami-sama-no-iutoori-fujimura-akKodomo no Jikaneji-r1932
People die left and right (usually by having their heads explode, or otherwise becoming a bloody mess) because some unknown omnipotent power wants to kill a staggeringly vast number of kids and make it a game. In other words, it's pornographically violent. This is hardly the only one like this, but I would have to say it's one of the most extreme.

Why would the first two be removed but these two remain? That makes your censorship policy random, as well as pointless.

P.S. I wasn't sure where to put this thread. Where do people put requests to remove material for it being too strong? Actually now that I think about it, I think this belongs in suggestions more, might someone move it there for now please?

Edited by truepurple, 12 June 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[hados9]

it could have gone in Quality Assurance but its ok.

Well its not the rating of the managa its the sexual content of the manga that will determine if it stays or if it goes so a manga that has alot of sexual content isnt allowed on batoto at the moment weather it will be aloud at all it yet to be decided and a disgusting manga with lots of blood and guts there is nothing wrong with aslong as it is rated Mature so people know

ill have a look at http://vatoto.com/comic/_/comics/higanbana-no-saku-yoru-ni-r2673 for the owners and you and other admins and say if it should be removed or not but the last one there is nothing wrong with the blurb that you gave us but ill just double check it as well just to be safe

Edit:

I just checked the first chapter of higanbana it doesn't seem to be based on sex and have too much sexual content in it so i would say its safe and it not being removed would help my opinion even tho there are some sexual seens you dont see anything happen you jsut see before hand and the after effect so i would say its ok to keep on batoto

Kami-sama no Iutoori (FUJIMURA Akeji) i just found a new manga to read and the manga is find no sexual content but just alot of bloods and guts which is good but no sex which is good too i hope that makes sense if not just say so ill fix it

Edited by hados9, 12 June 2012 - 01:26 AM.

[truepurple]

So its more about quantity of sexual content instead of severity/degree which doesn't matter much at all? So why this quantity of sexual content a issue at all? What is the source and reason for this bazaar arbitrary restriction?

Even if you say that, Kodomo no Jikan has almost no sexual content at all (much more mild then many many others here on batoto) where as higanbana is based on the the premise of the violent sexual concept of a teacher repeatedly raping a severally underage student, the story centers around this even.

P.S. Due to the pesky way BBC code works editing on this forum, I can't strip it from the kodo name easily when I cut and paste it, and I don't feel like the effort trying.

Edited by truepurple, 12 June 2012 - 02:41 AM.

[tedsine]

A group of less than ten staff member can't possibly read and check every single manga uploaded and different people have different standard.

Edited by tedsine, 12 June 2012 - 02:55 AM.

[hados9]

A group of less than ten staff member can't possibly read and check every single manga uploaded and different people have different standard.

yeah but they do a good job trust me lol and im always trying to be one and it isnt a 10 man team it is more of a 7-8 man team

So its more about quantity of sexual content instead of severity/degree which doesn't matter much at all? So why this quantity of sexual content a issue at all? What is the source and reason for this bazaar arbitrary restriction?

Even if you say that, Kodomo no Jikan has almost no sexual content at all (much more mild then many many others here on batoto) where as higanbana is based on the the premise of the violent sexual concept of a teacher repeatedly raping a severally underage student, the story centers around this even.

P.S. Due to the pesky way BBC code works editing on this forum, I can't strip it from the kodo name easily when I cut and paste it, and I don't feel like the effort trying.

well if u think that manga should be on here ill have a look and inform you and tell u what i think Ok i just read it and i know exactly why it isnt on batoto simple because the manga not being high levels of sexual content it contains continues stream of low levels of sexual content which isnt accepted on batoto as well (yes i know the rules are a pain to understand) if the manga had more of a story then trying to catch acts of a sexual nature towards children it might have a chance on batoto but not with that type of story line will it get on batoto

Edited by hados9, 12 June 2012 - 05:06 AM.

[truepurple]

continues stream of low levels of sexual content

Other stories I have read have much higher levels of steam of sexual content, and your summery of the story is a shame. I also don't get what you mean by "trying to catch"


Anyway, please don't make me ask again, why this strange arbitrary rule? It would be much easier to discuss this issue if I had even a inkling of the reasoning behind it.

Another example of a comic not on batoto is "onani_master_kurosawa". And if you say this has any more sexual content then alot of stuff already on batoto or lacks storyline to justify what it does have, I call you crazy.

Edited by truepurple, 12 June 2012 - 05:48 AM.

[KidCongo]

Kodomo no Jikan is too close to Lolicon to be on Batoto, and we do have Onani Master Kurosawa. If you want to blame anyone for the way sexual content is handled on Batoto, then blame the US' cultural hegemony.

[truepurple]

If Kodomo no Jikan is "too close to lolicon", then higanbana is well over the line.

If you want to blame anyone for the way sexual content is handled on Batoto, then blame the US' cultural hegemony.

That isn't a reason for current policy, "US' cultural hegemony" has no direct control over anything on batoto, might have something to do with that whole pesky freedom of speech thing.

[hados9]

dude they have just been give the right to remove a website a will now so we have to be carefull with wat we upload and well the end of the story high sexual content oriented manga will most likey not be uploaded in the near future and if u have a problem talk with grump and see what he says

[Grumpy]

That isn't a reason for current policy, "US' cultural hegemony" has no direct control over anything on batoto, might have something to do with that whole pesky freedom of speech thing.

Actually, it does have direct control over Batoto.
Our servers are in USA. Our advertisers are of USA companies. Their policies are thus our policies. Though, since this is the Internet, we can levy a slightly more free nature than those of tv/movie counterpart who do have a stricter regulations than we do. But, it generally stems from them where our policies regarding these topics rise from.

And for further reference:
http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/1821-general-hosting-guidelines-and-policies/

And for reporting problematic comics based on content:
http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/2977-not-sure-about-a-comic-ask-if-appropriate-here/

[truepurple]

dude they have just been give the right to remove a website a will now

Huh? Almost no idea at all what you are talking about or even saying.

@Grumpy
Those two links for what is considered appropriate are hard to follow, I see alot of very generalized definitions of terms, but no list of what is looked for in deciding whether to allow something or not.

With the repeated rape of a severally underage girl by her teacher, (then brutally murdered, but I guess advertisers are OK with very little girls being raped and murdered by their teachers?) how is Higanbana not "lolicon? Does the fact that it is by force, make it "not lolicon" in someones eyes? Or just that some of it happens off screen?(but not completely) That doesn't make it any less sickening. I would point out again that Kodomo no Jikan has no such sex scenes at all, aside from one brief and heavily censored imaginary one, and certainly no rape. Please note this is not about my hating Higanbana or loving Kodomo no Jikan, its about these massive inconsistency in censorship that irritate me to no end, and these two provide convenient demonstration points.

And the mention of whether there is a enough story to justify sexual content is almost laughable, especially as what some of you consider enough story judging by what is allowed, and what is not. I find it hard to imagine "enough story to justify X sexual content" being anywhere in a advertising companies policies.

Our servers are in USA. Our advertisers are of USA companies. Their policies are thus our policies.

Well, other websites allow mangas of which you do not, and do not appear to have trouble with advertisers (since they continue on and on, mangafox for example)

But please be more specific, like, what advertisers? What policies do said advertiser have? Have any of them made any specific complaint about any content, or are you trying to avoid ever having a complaint, 'just in case' one might come? If the latter, couldn't you just wait for a complaint and act then? Of all your advertisers, how many of them have such troublesome irrational policies, and what percentage of business would you guesstimate they represent?

Edited by truepurple, 12 June 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[cloudyfog]

@ truepurple

I've checked higanbana chapter where the girl "brutally" murdered scene happening. And i want to ask you a question, what is your definition of "brutal" while for me brutal murder is like : http://brainz.org/15-most-brutal-methods-execution-all-time/ especially the slow slicing one. And on higanbana, the girl just choked to death. Compared to other execution method like bleed the victim until death, choking is better(nor i agree about killing and the method, just want to emphasize the difference about brutal and common execution method) and faster.

Personally, I like kodomo no jikan while I agree to the logic why batoto choose to not host the manga here. With mostly(not all the time) of chapters from kodomo of jikan depicting body of elementary girl etc. Plus the society view that underage relationship is a big taboo on this day too.

[mhh]

Truepurple, these generalizations you see there is what we use to determine if something is allowed or not.
The world isn't painted solely in black and white or fits the categories of or good or bad or even just appropriate or not.

If you want to discuss a specific comic you are free to report in the the mentioned thread.

In case you haven't noticed the advertiser Google AdSense didn't like our content and suspended our account.
So for the advertiser part you will have to either trust what Grumpy is saying or do some research of your own.

[Trebor]

@Grumpy
Those two links for what is considered appropriate are hard to follow, I see alot of very generalized definitions of terms, but no list of what is looked for in deciding whether to allow something or not.

It's important to understand the difference between "rules vs. standards." Rules are easy-to-follow but inflexible commands (do not kill) but have the problem of being over- or under-inclusive (can I kill when someone is about to stab me?), while standards are not easy to follow but adapt to situations (do not kill except when justified). We have chosen to adopt a standards-based approach, so our guidelines are not set in stone.

Also, there is a list of guidelines under the definitions. I know the definitions are long, but they are there to provide context and clarity to the guidelines. That is, I didn't want people complaining "but that's not sex" or "that's not a child".

With the repeated rape of a severally underage girl by her teacher, (then brutally murdered, but I guess advertisers are OK with very little girls being raped and murdered by their teachers?) how is Higanbana not "lolicon? Does the fact that it is by force, make it "not lolicon" in someones eyes? Or just that some of it happens off screen?(but not completely) That doesn't make it any less sickening. I would point out again that Kodomo no Jikan has no such sex scenes at all, aside from one brief and heavily censored imaginary one, and certainly no rape. Please note this is not about my hating Higanbana or loving Kodomo no Jikan, its about these massive inconsistency in censorship that irritate me to no end, and these two provide convenient demonstration points.

And the mention of whether there is a enough story to justify sexual content is almost laughable, especially as what some of you consider enough story judging by what is allowed, and what is not. I find it hard to imagine "enough story to justify X sexual content" being anywhere in a advertising companies policies.

This entire thing can be answered in one word: context. Context is important and it's why we don't have rules but standards (see above). I haven't read that manga, but just because something has rape doesn't make it automatically objectionable. On the extreme ends, the obviously unallowable thing is a video of a child actually being raped and murdered. On the other, obviously allowable end, is a news article describing such a thing happening. Now you have to fit everything else in between these two extremes.

And as to the second paragraph, of course it is. It's called being "reasonable". For example, Youtube does not allow nudity generally (e.g., no porn or naked people) but they do allow certain art performances of naked dancers, because the nudity isn't for sexual reasons. You can disagree, of course, with the underlying value that sex isn't a bad thing and shouldn't be banned, but the thing to take away from this: Yes, people employ "reasonable standards," which boils down to "is there enough of (something meritworthy) to justify (something otherwise objectionable)". It's called a balancing test.

Well, other websites allow mangas of which you do not, and do not appear to have trouble with advertisers (since they continue on and on, mangafox for example)

But please be more specific, like, what advertisers? What policies do said advertiser have? Have any of them made any specific complaint about any content, or are you trying to avoid ever having a complaint, 'just in case' one might come? If the latter, couldn't you just wait for a complaint and act then? Of all your advertisers, how many of them have such troublesome irrational policies, and what percentage of business would you guesstimate they represent?

To be honest, I don't know the answers to these questions, but you know, I don't think we have any obligation to hire a consulting firm to conduct a thorough analysis, then pass the report to our Audit Committee and approve it in an open board meeting and release the results publicly before we make and enforce rules. But hold on, let me call our Legal Compliance Department so that they can obtain outside counsel's opinion before I say anything definitive. I'll get back to you in six to eight weeks.

[truepurple]

To be honest, I don't know the answers to these questions, but you know, I don't think we have any obligation to hire a consulting firm to conduct a thorough analysis, then pass the report to our Audit Committee and approve it in an open board meeting and release the results publicly before we make and enforce rules. But hold on, let me call our Legal Compliance Department so that they can obtain outside counsel's opinion before I say anything definitive. I'll get back to you in six to eight weeks.

I just asked for the bases of this haphazard "standard"/guideline, with a little bit of detail and you give me this very rude reply.

Look, how do you know that your advertisers could even possibly have a problem with any content/have any kind of policies that would give you any kind of troubles? Are you all just guessing? Is this all based purely on presumption alone? If it is actually based on something, then what???

Or even more specifically, what do any of you base the conclusion on that a story about a teacher repeatedly raping then murdering a very young girl, would be treated any better by advertisers then one of a underage student in love with her teacher, but nothing comes of it sexually speaking?

And where do you guys get the idea that advertisers don't care one whim how brutally and or graphically violent a story is?

Where do you guys get the idea that advertisers are more ok with sexual content, if "there is enough story too"?

Edited by truepurple, 12 June 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[cloudyfog]

@truepurple

So choking to death is brutal for you? Compared to the other way of execution? And the seduction by one of the underage student on kodomo no jikan to make her teacher fall for her is common in this day and acceptable?

A bit off topic about Brutal murder, but since you persistently saying that the choking method is brutal,
On the chapter that the teacher "brutally?" (sorry if I emphasize on this word, but you didn't answer my question before) I don't see any excessive execution that can be generally depicted as "Brutal". Except if the teacher is kind of toying with his choking execution way, like giving a small time to let the girl take a breath and then continuing and repeated that way, I can say it is brutal, since toying with someone life is OBVIOUSLY not something human should do to other.

And now to KnJ manga. If you read the manga too, you should be able to say which genre this manga belong to. Yeah, lolicon, ecchi with the element of elementary grade kids. From the general-hosting-guidelines-and-policies, stated clearly that underage child is defined ADULT-content and can't be accepted here. What else?

If it is actually based on something, then what???

Say, if Grumpy or the staff answered: "Yeah we got the reason over here, reason 1, reason 2, reason 3." by saying "Then what", what do you mean by that question? From my point of view, that question only mean: "So what if you got the reason/base of the policies, I don't care about that. My stand won't change whatever you people say" And if this is not the meaning of your question, then please say what is the true meaning of that question.

I just asked for the bases of this haphazard "standard"/guideline, with a little bit of detail and you give me this very rude reply.

Look, how do you know that your advertisers could even possibly have a problem with any content/have any kind of policies that would give you any kind of troubles? Are you all just guessing? Is this all based purely on presumption alone? If it is actually based on something, then what???

Or even more specifically, what do any of you base the conclusion on that a story about a teacher repeatedly raping then murdering a very young girl, would be treated any better by advertisers then one of a underage student in love with her teacher, but nothing comes of it sexually speaking?

And where do you guys get the idea that advertisers don't care one whim how brutally and or graphically violent a story is?

Where do you guys get the idea that advertisers are more ok with sexual content, if "there is enough story too"?

If i to answer this:

It's important to understand the difference between "rules vs. standards." Rules are easy-to-follow but inflexible commands (do not kill) but have the problem of being over- or under-inclusive (can I kill when someone is about to stab me?), while standards are not easy to follow but adapt to situations (do not kill except when justified). We have chosen to adopt a standards-based approach, so our guidelines are not set in stone.

Also, there is a list of guidelines under the definitions. I know the definitions are long, but they are there to provide context and clarity to the guidelines. That is, I didn't want people complaining "but that's not sex" or "that's not a child".



This entire thing can be answered in one word: context. Context is important and it's why we don't have rules but standards (see above). I haven't read that manga, but just because something has rape doesn't make it automatically objectionable. On the extreme ends, the obviously unallowable thing is a video of a child actually being raped and murdered. On the other, obviously allowable end, is a news article describing such a thing happening. Now you have to fit everything else in between these two extremes.

And as to the second paragraph, of course it is. It's called being "reasonable". For example, Youtube does not allow nudity generally (e.g., no porn or naked people) but they do allow certain art performances of naked dancers, because the nudity isn't for sexual reasons. You can disagree, of course, with the underlying value that sex isn't a bad thing and shouldn't be banned, but the thing to take away from this: Yes, people employ "reasonable standards," which boils down to "is there enough of (something meritworthy) to justify (something otherwise objectionable)". It's called a balancing test.

I saw most of your question can be answered by trebor post there.

And another question for you, are you asking about this with objective to make KnJ manga approved here and higanbana to be removed from the site?? or just a mere curiosity about the guideline?

[mhh]

Truepuple I'm beginning to think you are making fun of us. Litterally every one of your threads goes around in circles, so don't be surprised if you get sarcastic or ironical replies after a while.

We basically answered everything you asked here already (see red):

I just asked for the bases of this haphazard "standard"/guideline, with a little bit of detail and you give me this very rude reply.
- Just saying that I'm not going to say anything to this...

Look, how do you know that your advertisers could even possibly have a problem with any content/have any kind of policies that would give you any kind of troubles? Are you all just guessing? Is this all based purely on presumption alone? If it is actually based on something, then what???
- Because the Networks turn us down - we want to use them they won't let us? Can it be any more obvious than that? Or the fact that Google AdSense banned us and Grumpy tells us there are many Networks that he can't use because of content on Batoto.

Or even more specifically, what do any of you base the conclusion on that a story about a teacher repeatedly raping then murdering a very young girl, would be treated any better by advertisers then one of a underage student in love with her teacher, but nothing comes of it sexually speaking?
- This is completely irrelevant to the problem here. We have zero tolerance policy towards lolicon content. Yes, zero. That might include things that you consider appropriate - we don't. Aside all legal background this something we have a problem with and will not be changed.

And where do you guys get the idea that advertisers don't care one whim how brutally and or graphically violent a story is?
- Where do you even get the idea from that we think that? And yet again not very relevant in our decisions.

Where do you guys get the idea that advertisers are more ok with sexual content, if "there is enough story too"?
- We get this idea by taking into account what is deemed appropriate for what age by e.g. referencing TV shows, movies and the times they air on TV or if they air on TV at all.

Furthermore the specific answers you are looking for don't exist. Ad networks aren't moral apostles that define what is acceptable and what isn't, they do what is best for business and what they can get away with. And they can get away with things accepted by society for example.

If you really want to read terms and conditions here are Googles: https://www.google.com/adsense/localized-terms

This topic is now locked I refuse to answer the same questions phrased in different ways over and over again.

[Trebor]

I grow tired of this incessant questioning of mods and rules, truepurple.

At this point, I don't care if you don't like us or don't understand the reasoning behind the rules. We've tried explaining the reasoning and you just brush off our reasoning. What matters now is that you obey them, and the staff will enforce them. It's, quite honestly, that simple.

You seem to be after some sort of "truth" where none exist. If you had a question on what the rules mean or how to follow the rules, that's somewhat easy to answer. We can tell you "yes" or "no", whether something is appropriate or not. You are asking us to describe the philosophical underpinnings of our rules, which we have, but you keep on digging deeper. This is an infinite regress and will never end, because ultimately, you don't agree with our reasons at a fundamental level.

I don't really understand your endgame. What's the point of this? You want us to change our rules? That's not happening given the current structure we work with. You want to understand? We've tried explaining already. Anyway, this isn't an argument and this thread is closed. (Too bad mhh beat me to it)

P.S.: By the way, we don't really have to prepare reports to you to justify our rules. We are not elected officials that have to hold meetings. You want site statistics and all this other data but I'm going to suggest to you that you have unrealistic expectations of how the world works.