39 replies to this topic

[Bobby]

Realize that Translation between languages is not a perfect science, and that unless it's the actual author themself, a word that can mean two different things in one language can easily be confused by the translator for another. In this case, the Japanese version may just say the word that means both "Parent's Sister" and "Older woman" (Oba-san) to use one example. The problem with it is that unless the work is over and we know everything going on, translation like that has to be guessed, and if it's ever messed up then the translator usually does an apology page explaining it.

On another note, adoption does not automatically make you blood related, so if that were the case, she'd still be his father's sister, but not blood related.

Ah good point I guess, I was thinking about translation errors, but In the English translations the Scanlation groups went to the effort to say "My dad's sister... My aunt" all 3 groups worded it like that, IMO it seemed like an intentional translation to say that its his fathers sister. It could still be a TN error though, ya never know. And I never thought of the adopted route, got me there.

Guess it's possible that she's not blood related, but I still believe that she is his biological aunt. From what we've been told so far she is...

[Zero0mega]

why doesn't he do it in secret. thats the thing with people they like to brag about they're sexual exploits

[Flupser]

in my opinion they can fuck each other as much as they want and if they love each other i don't have a problem with it as longs as they dont get kids

[keideki]

First off, Anthropologist here.

Second off, there are some pretty major misconceptions about how incest can effect the genes. In most cultures in Europe and the Middle-east, until very recently it was common practice to marry a cross-cousin (Your mother's brother's daughter [if you are male]). In fact from the evidence we have concerning related genetics is it is BETTER to marry a cross cousin as the likely hood of genetic defect goes from the world wide average of 4-6% to 3-5% over all. As for siblings, there is no good evidence one way or another. There has never been a large enough sample of sibling incest over a period of time long enough to draw actual scientifically supportable conclusions. In other words, because almost no cultures practice habitual incest we have no data to support any conclusion at all. Many people like to cite the European monarchies as good examples but the sample size is WAY too small to be statistically significant.

Just thought I would leave my two cents here.

BTW Love Minamoto no Monogatari.

[svines85]

First off, Anthropologist here.

Second off, there are some pretty major misconceptions about how incest can effect the genes. In most cultures in Europe and the Middle-east, until very recently it was common practice to marry a cross-cousin (Your mother's brother's daughter [if you are male]). In fact from the evidence we have concerning related genetics is it is BETTER to marry a cross cousin as the likely hood of genetic defect goes from the world wide average of 4-6% to 3-5% over all. As for siblings, there is no good evidence one way or another. There has never been a large enough sample of sibling incest over a period of time long enough to draw actual scientifically supportable conclusions. In other words, because almost no cultures practice habitual incest we have no data to support any conclusion at all. Many people like to cite the European monarchies as good examples but the sample size is WAY too small to be statistically significant.

Just thought I would leave my two cents here.

BTW Love Minamoto no Monogatari.

Samplings and Case Studies aside, isn't it commonly accepted (medically) that recessive genes have a greater potential to surface in the offspring of unions between close family members? Recessive genes being those normally associated with health defects?
Of course this is all a little more than the original topic, family laws and specifically the relations between cousins.

[Gravewolf]

I don't care about Japan's family laws....it's manga so everything here goes lol. I love the perversion in this manga and a lot of things happen even if the chapters are short.

[svines85]

I don't care about Japan's family laws....it's manga so everything here goes lol. I love the perversion in this manga and a lot of things happen even if the chapters are short.

I can't say I disagree with you, this is a great manga. Yeah, the chapters sure are short but I guess that's part of keeping us coming back for more.

[Beelz]

Anyways Incest doesn't really bother me that much, people can do whatever they want IMO, but theres no way in hell I'd ever fuck any of my blood relatives end of story. Wouldn't even consider it with any cousins regardless of how related or far removed they are from me. They're plenty of people out there to choose from, damn.

These manga always romanticize incest, and I'm fine with that, the stories can be really interesting, but think a bit before taking that into real life... There can be serious consequences.

Personally i agree with you... but to me incest is fine aslong as nobody is directly harmed as a result... if having a child drastically increases the risk of birth defects then they shouldn't have one however if it only happens in a single generation and risks are minimal then it should be fine. now i'm not saying i would personally partake infact i wouldn't even consider it with distant cousins.

[Deception]

This is where a troll would go "As long as my **** gets sucked its fine!"

All jokes aside its not illegal at all, nor are there any laws against it. Anyway, in terms of society its just viewed as a bad form of morality. so following morals you shouldn't do it, but what are morals to stop you from doing something your heart is pounding to do?

[Coma Culture]

No fucking family laws will bypass he fact that by making out with this new girl you are essentially fufilling her fantasy about fucking her father.

BRAAAKES.

PUMP THE BRAAAAAAAAKES.

[keideki]

Samplings and Case Studies aside, isn't it commonly accepted (medically) that recessive genes have a greater potential to surface in the offspring of unions between close family members? Recessive genes being those normally associated with health defects?
Of course this is all a little more than the original topic, family laws and specifically the relations between cousins.

This is a bit of a misnomer. It is kind of like an old wives tale. There is not enough medical evidence on the subject of incestuous relationships to draw any conclusions at all.

The only reason we don't marry inside our own kinship tress to to promote trade. Almost every culture on earth has a taboo on incest, mainly to keep up the exchange of goods and forge relationships. The data on what actually happens just is not there.

Most people wont find themselves in a situation where any good study could be done anyways as most incestuous relationships are based on abuse. Is it right or wrong? Who really knows. If two consenting adults who are siblings or somehow related want to do it, who are we to stop them.

[bushwhacker2k]

If two consenting adults who are siblings or somehow related want to do it, who are we to stop them.

My opinion on most things. Still not really sure why gay marriage isn't totally legal, are there really enough fascist religious douchebags out there forcing their opinions down other peoples' throats?

[svines85]

are there really enough fascist religious douchebags out there forcing their opinions down other peoples' throats?

Apparently, yes. It's a sad state of affairs.

[Hinanawi Tenshi]

Uh.... is it still incest if he relents and... uh... well.... screws her within the laws?

It's legal to have incestual intercourse, but it's illegal to incestual marriage(in Japan).

Edited by Hinanawi Tenshi, 27 July 2012 - 04:57 AM.

[Havoc12]

Incest is taboo in practically every successful human society and with good reason. It quickly leads to genetic degeneration. There are plenty reasons for that. Inbreeding leads to homozygocity. To explain that every gene has multiple different variant and we all have two copies of each gene. Inbred individuals tend to have the same variant for both copies of each gene, while outbred individuals tend to have different copies. Practically every human has some gene variants which are defective in some way, but they are not visible because only one of the two copies is a defective variant. Since inbreeding tends to produce ppl who have the same variant for both copies, they end up having two copies of the defective genes and manifest disease. Even more importantly there is an effect known as co-dominance, where two different variants work together to produce a different effect from what would be produced if the person had a double copy of each variant. I.e. If the two gene variants are A and B, then a person with one A and one B, manifests a different effect from either AA or BB individuals. Co-dominance is responsible for a phenomenon known as hybrid vigour in plants: In some cases plants arising from crossing two different varieties of a species have much better properties that either of the parents (e.g. grow faster, become bigger, produce more fruit). Similar effects are probably important in humans and give individuals that tend to heterozygocity (the opposite of homozygocity) improved abilities.

As a result inbreeding quickly results in a degenerated population, with low reproductive potential and high disease incidence. So if you just saved two individuals of a particular species and killed everything else, the species is as good as extinct. The two individuals you saved would only produce a population, which will degenerate with the span of a handful of generation, due to low reproductive success and an increased incidence of individuals of low ability. Such populations quick fall prey to predators or will fail to compete with other species for resources and naturally go extinct. Most species are in constant competition with other species and survive because their abilities make them the best at competing for a particular type of resource. Inbred populations however lose that competitive edge and lose out against species that a normal outbred population can keep at bay.

Discouraging incest has absolutely nothing to do with god. Religion codifies into dogma the survival lessons that a society learns as it evolves. Religions survive because their edicts work well for large numbers of people, which is why religions often have very adherent followers and overzealous proponents. Its evolutions by trial and error that follows similar principles to darwinian evolution. Marriages between siblings are illegal and if they occur they would have no legal standing. I am not sure what the legal framework is for sexual relationships between siblings that are adults. I expect that there would be some sort of intervention. Probably ordered into counselling by a court. However, sexual relationships of any sort between parent and child are definitely illegal and treated as statutory rape/abuse by the parent. That means even if the child is perfectly willing or an adult, the parent can be convicted of a criminal offense and sent to jail and if the child is a minor they would be taken away from them by social services. This is a good and proper thing regardless of religion.

On the flip side, exactly because it is taboo, incest holds a horrifying type of fascination for many people. The temptation of the forbidden fruit makes it appear delicious, even when its actually nothing special in the end. A lot of people love to read/watch something that is a bit horrifying, because its more exciting, so incest is a common theme in literature though in the west it is typically portrayed as destructive. For cultural reasons, which I will not go into the Japanese appear to have a stronger fascination and less inhibitions when it comes to incest. For example it is common for young siblings to share a bed even if they are not of the same sex. In general the japanese have closer family relationships than we do in the west, like bathing together and having more skin to skin contact with their young children. I suspect that the japanese might have a slightly higher tolerance for incestuous behaviour than we do i.e. different notions of propriety when it comes to family relations, but I don't actually have any evidence to support that.

That being said there is no reason to suspect that Terumi's aunt is not a blood relative. The fact that she is portrayed as very attractive supports a blood relationship, since apparently the protagonist is described as very pretty. It makes perfect sense that his close family relatives would be very attractive.

Edited by Havoc12, 19 August 2012 - 05:50 AM.

[ValorantX]

No one mentioned about all the Darwinian evolutionary aspects of it. I haven't really studied incest deeply or anything but the social development in many primate species don't tend to interbreed among siblings. It's a meme that's genetically imbedded in us.

Edited by Saphsin, 21 August 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Lowlightt]

Incest is taboo in practically every successful human society and with good reason. It quickly leads to genetic degeneration. There are plenty reasons for that. Inbreeding leads to homozygocity. To explain that every gene has multiple different variant and we all have two copies of each gene. Inbred individuals tend to have the same variant for both copies of each gene, while outbred individuals tend to have different copies. Practically every human has some gene variants which are defective in some way, but they are not visible because only one of the two copies is a defective variant. Since inbreeding tends to produce ppl who have the same variant for both copies, they end up having two copies of the defective genes and manifest disease. Even more importantly there is an effect known as co-dominance, where two different variants work together to produce a different effect from what would be produced if the person had a double copy of each variant. I.e. If the two gene variants are A and B, then a person with one A and one B, manifests a different effect from either AA or BB individuals. Co-dominance is responsible for a phenomenon known as hybrid vigour in plants: In some cases plants arising from crossing two different varieties of a species have much better properties that either of the parents (e.g. grow faster, become bigger, produce more fruit). Similar effects are probably important in humans and give individuals that tend to heterozygocity (the opposite of homozygocity) improved abilities.

The problem with this line of thinking is that It's only the case if the genes being passed on are inferior. If A brother and sister both posses positive traits with no negative traits being held passivly then there children would be only born of positive traits like there parents and further inbreeding would have the same result. So on the opposite side of this idea inbreeding can result in a supperior line of genetics. With the sheer amount of dominante and recessive traits out there its immpossible to determine if inbreeding would cause problems. Lets not forget about mutations. Its been shown on several occasions species pushed back into the endangered zone have miracaulosly come back to life and populations have surged after a sudden mutation in line made them superior in some way. The fact is positive traits in the animal kingdom get passed on more because they survive. In fact as a species we are one of the few that don't inbreed. Dogs, cats, cows, wolves, sheep, dolphines, all inbreed. Even plants inbreed in fact many times with them selves. At the moment there is no scietific fact to prove for or against inbreeding or show the true effects of it. It's all best guess I'm afraid.

[MasterFnarg]

Mmhmm. Allegedly having a child with a first cousin will only have defect rates comparable to the child of a pregnant 40 year old woman.

Anyway, first cousin marriage laws differe from country to country. In Japan, 1st cousin marriages are legal.

You've done a suspicous amount of research into this...

[Laurens D]

Don't know much about this matter, Think cousin and nephew happens a lot in the older days. Also as far i have heard it's a custom or old custom to let twins(male and female) marry each other or something like that. No idea if it is true though

[Shadow12000]

Incest is taboo in practically every successful human society and with good reason. It quickly leads to genetic degeneration. There are plenty reasons for that. Inbreeding leads to homozygocity. To explain that every gene has multiple different variant and we all have two copies of each gene. Inbred individuals tend to have the same variant for both copies of each gene, while outbred individuals tend to have different copies. Practically every human has some gene variants which are defective in some way, but they are not visible because only one of the two copies is a defective variant. Since inbreeding tends to produce ppl who have the same variant for both copies, they end up having two copies of the defective genes and manifest disease. Even more importantly there is an effect known as co-dominance, where two different variants work together to produce a different effect from what would be produced if the person had a double copy of each variant. I.e. If the two gene variants are A and B, then a person with one A and one B, manifests a different effect from either AA or BB individuals. Co-dominance is responsible for a phenomenon known as hybrid vigour in plants: In some cases plants arising from crossing two different varieties of a species have much better properties that either of the parents (e.g. grow faster, become bigger, produce more fruit). Similar effects are probably important in humans and give individuals that tend to heterozygocity (the opposite of homozygocity) improved abilities.

As a result inbreeding quickly results in a degenerated population, with low reproductive potential and high disease incidence. So if you just saved two individuals of a particular species and killed everything else, the species is as good as extinct. The two individuals you saved would only produce a population, which will degenerate with the span of a handful of generation, due to low reproductive success and an increased incidence of individuals of low ability. Such populations quick fall prey to predators or will fail to compete with other species for resources and naturally go extinct. Most species are in constant competition with other species and survive because their abilities make them the best at competing for a particular type of resource. Inbred populations however lose that competitive edge and lose out against species that a normal outbred population can keep at bay.

Discouraging incest has absolutely nothing to do with god. Religion codifies into dogma the survival lessons that a society learns as it evolves. Religions survive because their edicts work well for large numbers of people, which is why religions often have very adherent followers and overzealous proponents. Its evolutions by trial and error that follows similar principles to darwinian evolution. Marriages between siblings are illegal and if they occur they would have no legal standing. I am not sure what the legal framework is for sexual relationships between siblings that are adults. I expect that there would be some sort of intervention. Probably ordered into counselling by a court. However, sexual relationships of any sort between parent and child are definitely illegal and treated as statutory rape/abuse by the parent. That means even if the child is perfectly willing or an adult, the parent can be convicted of a criminal offense and sent to jail and if the child is a minor they would be taken away from them by social services. This is a good and proper thing regardless of religion.

Disclaimer that this information is all guesstimated from other experiments and studies rather than from actual human experimentation, which in turn means that there is still the tiny chance that it doesn't work the same as plants or other animals. That being said, it's kind of hard to actually perform studies of this on humans because we don't exactly have a large group of people that are all closely related and having kids with each other, and the taboo that was set in long before any actual scientific study could have been started keeps (most) people from doing it naturally.

Also, as others have said, legal standings on sexual relationships between siblings varies from country to country, but in the countries that don't outright blame someone, so long as it's consented and you're adults, the court wont get involved, your family might though. However, saying that the parent being sent to jail for rape even if it's consented and they're both adults is not always "a good thing" as you put it. I could see your point when talking about a father and child, but from what you've said, a son who is an adult could rape his mother, and his mother blamed. The sad part is I can see that happening, as courts have less to do with what's right and what's wrong nowadays as opposed to which lawyer makes a better case, even if it's all bull.