22 replies to this topic

[soranokira]

I don't want to make lengthy comments so I'll make lengthy posts discussing about Kuroko, ES21 and PoT.

Firstly, about this comment:

so many complaint.. if you dont like it, why dont you guys watch NBA or real life basketball then..

Slam Dunk was perfectly fine and, to quote Turas, not a "Misdirection Overflow... more like special-skill-pulled-out-of-the-ass-when-we-need-it.
They just pulled that off like a true Shounen manga." type of manga.

Ok, now that I've got that straightened out, I'd say that this manga is quite like Prince of Tennis (PoT). It started off fine, bit on the supernatural side but then again still on the rather acceptable side. The characters grow, oh yes. But what, all of a sudden they can 'super saiyan' several times in one match? In the latest arc against Touou, how many times did they power up, seriously? At this rate they're going into 'his power is over 9000!' or maybe they're going to pull off that 'playing basketball can numb the 5 senses of your opponent'.

And, now to ES21, I'd say that yes, Kuroko is slightly similar to it, but not so much. In ES21, a large part of it is pushing yourself to the limits and Hiruma spamming trick plays up the opponent's ass to win. Quite a bit of those are gambles, iirc (it's been awhile since I've last read both PoT and ES21 so forgive me if I mix some stuff up). But in Kuroko, thus far, it's not so much of tactics (of course there are tactics) but rather it has now become a focus on lol-overpowering individuals. Luckily, both still seems to have a fair bit of teamwork focus in it.

Just to add in another sports manga, Area no Kishi is a soccer manga that is generally still in the realms of humanity (thank god) which focuses on teamwork and tactics I guess. Would be kind of cool if Kuroko no Basket could have focused a little on trying to eliminate their weaknesses such as Kuroko making eye contact for his invisible pass route etc. or something in the middle of the game which somehow overcomes the opponents, rather than lol asspull an Misdirection Overflow out. It kind of makes you think, how does it even happen anyway?! Not to mention, pulling off 2 trump cards of Kuroko's (vanishing drive + misdirection overflow) in one game is not a very good way to pace things, IMO.

tl;dr? Kuroko is not so much like ES21 or Area no Kishi, but like PoT (which is generally bad). Still, there might be a chance to salvage this before it becomes another 'New PoT god-mode type manga'.

[Batsugame]

Slam Dunk is more of the exception than the rule, and that's exactly why Slam Dunk is so popular. It's different than most sports manga out there. Its protagonist isn't the best player (started out as easily the worst basketball player among the teams involved), and the manga revolves more on the story and characters rather than the action.

I disagree with the comparison to PoT because PoT is full on magic that it's no longer about normal tennis whatsoever. Almost each shot was some sort of special magic shot, and almost every player has some special skill too. Basically in PoT, super skills are the norm that everyone can do. KnB on the other hand, limited the special skill into certain characters. It used the "generation of miracles" as part of the setting (those 6 are the super human) and Kagami as co-protagonist (the one going from normal into superman) while the rest are normal players who are very very good (e.g.: broad court vision, shooting clutch three pointers, leading the team psychologically, etc).

I'd say E21 is definitely more similar to KnB than PoT to KnB, though they are still different enought IMO. E21 has super humans with super skills (ultrafast runners, magical throws, super jumps, brick wall strong, magically accurate kicker, etc) and there are definitely more of them than in KnB. In both KnB and E21 though, they are all about overcoming the opponents, and both utilized the special skills to do it. The main difference is the style of the two manga. KnB is more serious while E21 is definitely way more comical. IMO both are good, just different.

AnK is obviously the second most "normal" out of the mentioned sports manga behind Slam Dunk, but it's still very early on to the story IMO in a sense we don't know yet what AnK is going to be like in the future. We've already seen the protagonist being "possessed", and we've seen the weird things that wouldn't happen in real football/soccer such as putting a middle-distance runner into a team. And with more school teams to show up, as well as the Brazilian guy, there's quite a big room for AnK to suddenly turn into more superman route.

In general, I agree with you that I enjoy more of the "normal" route for sports manga. But having said that, I often feel that when it comes to sports manga, I enjoy the storyline and characters as much as I enjoy the actual sports action itself. So having some sort of supernatural magical skill for the action doesn't bother me as much. Of course I agree that PoT is too over the top and it's "stupid", but I don't feel KnB anywhere near PoT.

[ValorantX]

The supernatural-side aside (which isn't done as well as sport manga such as Eyeshield21) I don't like it very much as a sports manga.....the reason being that readers can't follow the individual games play-by-play like a real basketball game you can watch on television. Slam Dunk's page construction and records of the player's movement were done ingeniously in comparison.

[Batsugame]

I'm not sure if basketball manga is meant to display play-by-play for individual games. It would take too long and be filled with too many unnecessary stuff. While I agree that Slam Dunk is pretty much the best basketball manga, I don't think it's because of how it portrayed the full game. We hardly ever been shown the bench players, and action are kept to the important characters. If any, I think Slam Dunk excelled at showing the psychological battle.

[soranokira]

I wouldn't say that ES21 are that off the top in the supernatural field, in fact it's closer that everyone specializes in a certain trait while pushing the borders of skill (not yet beyond it to the level of supernatural). In a way most of the things that happen in ES21(from what I remember) are more logically explained than in KnB IMO. They're trying too hard to push everyone into the god-tier levels recently in KnB =/ which is why I feel it's getting close to PoT. seriously, Kagami probably doubled his level or something from the 1st match against Aomine until now. Same goes for Kuroko. Aomine probably clsoe to doubled when he awoke his animal instincts.

It might have something to do with the speed of their growth, realistic vs. skills/stat buff pulled out of the ass when needed. In ES21, remember that our mc only slightly surpassed the max speed limit in their realms. (Just that they stressed the point that every little bit of speed difference counts). In KnB, they pushed things so quickly that Kagami is practically at 90% of Aomine now or higher. Aomine is almost like the final boss all things considered (ace of Generation of Miracles), I can't help but think that the subsequent chapters will be full of asspulls.

Edited by soranokira, 16 April 2012 - 11:59 AM.

[Batsugame]

I think you're confusing "supernatural" and "super skills". I never said that E21 is off the top supernatural. What I said is that E21 has more super humans with super skills than KnB. This is mainly because american football is played with more players in a team than basketball. In every relevant team in E21, they have at least two players with super skills, may it be a very fast runner, super catcher, special passer, big strong blocker, or super kicker. And because E21 has more teams, the total characters with super skills ended up way more than KnB.

If we're talking about the supernatural-ness of the manga, I'd say E21 is exactly on the same level as KnB.
- Kuroko can "vanish", Sena/Agon can create "ghosts"
- Agon can copy things after seeing them, Kise can copy plays

Everything else is pretty much just super skills and not supernatural.
- Aomine can score like crazy, Yamato/Shin/Agon are "perfect" players
- Midorima can shoot 3-pointers accurately, Hiruma/Kid/Unsui can pass accurately
- Murasakibara is supposedly the best center (I'm guessing crazy rebounding/blocking skills?), Monta/Ikkyu/Sakuraba can catch like crazy

Personally, I think you're affected by the last few translated chapters and dislike the reveal of Misdirection Overflow that seemed more supernatural than actual basketball skill. You initially questioned how many times they've powered up in the game against Touou which is fair, but everything is within context IMO. Touou is supposedly the second best team, and has arguably the best player in Aomine (though we don't know what Akashi and Murasakibara can do yet). So it's understandable if Kuroko and Kagami needed to "power up" during the game itself. Back to the comparison to E21, Sena and Monta had learnt new skills during games against difficult opponents too. Then added to the context of story in KnB where Seirin needed to win this year due to Kiyoshi's injury, they're pretty much using up all their tricks and gamble with all in for this game.

They're trying too hard to push everyone into the god-tier levels recently in KnB =/ which is why I feel it's getting close to PoT. seriously, Kagami probably doubled his level or something from the 1st match against Aomine until now. Same goes for Kuroko. Aomine probably clsoe to doubled when he awoke his animal instincts.

How can two players (Kuroko and Kagami) equal to "everyone"? And did you forget that prior to the game, Seirin had training camp and Kagami went back to USA to train? What's the point of training if they didn't power up?

In KnB, they pushed things so quickly that Kagami is practically at 90% of Aomine now or higher.

How are things being pushed so quickly when it's already volume 15? I think sometimes people forget that KnB has been going for around 3 years now.

[zetina]

Hmmm... I feel like Misdirection Overflow and the (already previously hinted at) power-up of Kagami were intended from the get-go. I must admit something felt amiss? But, really, if they don't make this game exciting and long enough, Aomine will lose his badass status. (which makes me wonder if the games will take a slightly different approach, i.e., their heads get messed with by the Miracles captain)

[yellow]

Supernatural or not, I just want Kuroko to sore at least Once!! Just Once!! let him get the satisfaction of making a bucket. I mean, it will not be totally crazy for a player who sucks at shooting to get a lucky shot in... Shoot in my hopeful mind state I thought when Kuroko was practicing his vanishing drive it would end as a lay-up. But the completion stopped at vanishing... Am I a mad man to want to see Kuroko score a point in this manga?

[soranokira]

mmm I guess that's true, though I was initially more focused on the fact that ES21 seemed more about team plays and trick plays as compared to KnB which honestly just felt like it ended up being a 'character overpowered' sports manga.

you're affected by the last few translated chapters and dislike the reveal of Misdirection Overflow that seemed more supernatural than actual basketball skill. You initially questioned how many times they've powered up in the game against Touou which is fair, but everything is within context IMO.

true. But my issue is more of a...let's say Kuroko and kagami were at level 50 before the training. after the training, they seemed to be lvl 80. but somehow, during the course of the match, they ended up being lvl 120. (lolwut)
Just like how Aomine went from lvl 70 to 125 after 'unlocking' his 'animal instinct'.
and, yeah, misdirection overflow, I can't help but think it's a skill pulled out of the ass when needed.

How are things being pushed so quickly when it's already volume 15? I think sometimes people forget that KnB has been going for around 3 years now.

It's only chapter 130, weekly manga, so it's not yet (though almost) 3 years, yes. The actual release is past 3 years. Nonetheless, the 'pushed quickly' part isn't over the actual span of the manga, but the span of the plot in the manga. (Check the numbers shown above for what I meant by things pushing too fast). Also, they didn't even power up so much the previous time.
(And all this gayass powerups make me think more of PoT than ES21)

[Batsugame]

mmm I guess that's true, though I was initially more focused on the fact that ES21 seemed more about team plays and trick plays as compared to KnB which honestly just felt like it ended up being a 'character overpowered' sports manga.

I think I'll go back to the point about taking things within context. Let's talk about the three sports manga we're comparing.

1. PoT = individual sport (somewhat team-based if doubles) -> this is why every player has supernatural skill
Being mostly an individual sport, PoT ends up as the ultimate 'character overpowered' sports manga because the battle is basically a case of whether your supernatural skill can beat your opponent's supernatural skill or not. It's not about tennis anymore, but mainly about who has the better usage of their supernatural skill.

2. E21 = large size team sport (individual can't really carry the team) -> this is why a team usually has at least two players with super skills
Due to the number of players and the way the rules are designed, you can't really just rely on one person's super skills to win the game. That's why Sena alone can't win everything for the team. If the line can't hold, they'll lose possession. If the quarterback can't throw properly, they'll lose possession. If the catcher can't catch properly, they'll lose possession. And so on. Thus, instead of straight forward 'character overpowered' sports manga, E21 switched things around by introducing A LOT of characters. Sena can run fast? There are Panther, Agon, Yamato, Shin to beat him. Monta can catch like crazy? Ikkyu, Sakuraba, Teruma are as good if not better. Kurita is super strong? There are many rivals in Gaou, Banba, Ootawara, and others. Therefore, the 'character overpowered' element is not as obvious, and we are also distracted a lot by the character of Hiruma who functioned as the brain (trick plays strategy) and also comic relief (with guns and pissing off opponents). But in the end, E21 is also an 'overpowered character' manga because Sena power up to beat Panther, Agon, Shin, Yamato, etc. Same with all of his teammates with their respective opponents. It's just not as obvious due to the number of characters in the manga which allow the focus to change from character to character.

3. KnB = small size team sport (individual can carry the team) -> this is why only few players have super skills (one or two per team)
Despite being a team sport, basketball team can be carried by one single player much further than american football. A good example is LeBron's Cavs years ago and Iverson's Sixers a decade ago. They might not actually win the championship, but they carried the team so hard with their super high level of individual play to the finals. If there's a case of 'overpowered character', it is much more obvious in a game of basketball. However, despite all that, it is still about basketball because support characters are playing normal basketball, and even the superstars in KnB aren't supernatural skill players like in PoT (balls not bouncing, balls returning to the same spot all the time, balls smashing the player to the wall, etc).

true. But my issue is more of a...let's say Kuroko and kagami were at level 50 before the training. after the training, they seemed to be lvl 80. but somehow, during the course of the match, they ended up being lvl 120. (lolwut)
Just like how Aomine went from lvl 70 to 125 after 'unlocking' his 'animal instinct'.

First of all, while I understand it's your own example and you're free to label the number of level you feel appropriate, I think it's a little misguided. It doesn't really matter what level the characters are at because what's important is whether your team can score more than the other team or not. Of course Aomine is being one of the best (if not the best) player, then he's super high level, and because Seirin is meant to win (due to them being the protagonist team), then Seirin needs to compete at around the same level as Touou. If you feel that Aomine is level 125, then it's normal for Kagami to go up to level 120 to compete.

But the reason why you felt that it was'too fast' is because you exaggerated Aomine's jump from 70 to 125, and thus, you feel Kagami jumped from 50 to 80 to 120 being super fast. Unfortunately, this is inaccurate, and I'll explain why.
If you look back at the manga, Aomine being 'in the zone' basically made him improve from 80% to 100%
If you believed his initial level is 70 (being the 80%), then Aomine's 'in the zone' level is merely 87.5 (100%) and not 125 (142% and this is your massive exaggeration)
If we now believe that Aomine's 'in the zone' level is actually only 87.5, then Kagami's level up during the game is only from level 80 (after USA training and at the start of the game) to level 85 (during the game and still lose) to level 90 (if Kagami managed to beat Aomine)
Once you put things into more proper perspective, powering up from level 80-> 85 -> 90 is nowhere near 'too fast', and it's actually very reasonable looking.

Somewhat off-topic but related to the current Aomine vs Kagami plot line, I remember about 3 years ago when I watched Nuggets vs Cavs and it was a close game. The last 2-3 minutes of the game, it was pretty much LeBron vs Melo just playing one-on-one. Cavs possession went to LeBron, Nuggets possession went to Melo. They guarded each other, and they just went back and forth like crazy. LeBron drove past Melo to score, then Melo head fake and took mid-range jump shot to score next. LeBron hit a three, Melo hit a three next. And so on. It was a crazy game and I remembered being in awe seeing how those two basically carried the team on their backs. In a sense, they were on fire, and it's somewhat equivalent to being 'in the zone' in KnB's Aomine/Kagami.

It's only chapter 130, weekly manga, so it's not yet (though almost) 3 years, yes.

I didn't want to nitpick too much, and while you're right that it's a weekly manga, KnB started in December 2008, and volume 15 tankobon was released in December 2011. So even if it was only 130 chapter, it was actually already 3 years. It isn't exactly 50 chapters/year due to golden weeks and/or breaks.


Oh and yellow, you aren't mad. I also want to see Kuroko to score. Maybe he'll score the winning basket someday hahaha =D

[Rupert]

Before I make a stupid sentence, how tall are the players in KnB?

[Myki]

Maybe it's because I'm not a sports fan, that I love sports fiction: manga, anime, books or feature films. They all have a basic theme of rising above something with hard work and perseverance. Slam Dunk, PoT, ES 21, Area no Kishi, Whistle, T.R.A.P., Ginga e Kickoff, Cross Game, Real, RRR, Greenboy, Giant Killing, Holyland. All of them make the games more exciting, than they seem in real life, by distilling the essence of the competition and creating characters that touch us.
Kuroko is a protagonist who uses his "weakness" of seeming invisibility and lack of presence to support his team mates and make them shine. Like GeK, where the worst player brings out the best in anyone willing to act as a team. Or Real, which addresses the value of a point guard who brings out the best in all fellow players over one who scores alone. This has to appeal to kids who aren't star athletes.
But, it doesn't matter which ideal is being presented. Even feature films like The Natural, Sandlot, Space Jam, Bend it Like Beckam, Victory, Major League, Money Ball, A League of Their Own, Shaolin Soccer, National Velvet, The Mighty Ducks, Karate Kid, White Men Can't Jump, The Kid,..... all have themes that are chiseled in stone. It dates back to Casey at the Bat and probably further. It makes a sports fan out of geeks like me, if only in the moment.

[date_tsurugi]

*hands up* actually, am i stupid for thinking that Diamond no Ace (Daiya no A) is the most realistic manga? (aside from the others mentioned)
but ya, I guess there is not any kickasss sports manga without a bit of supernatural.

don't kill me ]:

[ValorantX]

there is not any kickasss sports manga without a bit of supernatural.

don't kill me ]:

.......I won't kill you but Slam Dunk and Real are really good manga that are not in any ways supernatural. First ones that came at the top of my head. There are quite a few others too.

Edited by Saphsin, 04 September 2012 - 04:43 AM.

[Wayne Low]

As covered by previous posters, Giant Killing is one that I really like and Baby Steps is another one of my favourite more down to earth and realistic kind of manga. I think their story plots were more refined and characters were more elaborated in-terms of their characters, goals and the development were just richer. I think a popular concept or rather one that an average reader like myself like is a under-whelming character who is inspired by an event and decided to dream; through some hardships, we see progression, character development, some love story and what's not and more progression and finally some end contents/goal achieved. I do think this is where Kuroko is hindered since they all started out being some Miracle of Generation and have their own unique skills; so there is really not much skill developments since they are really so good and the only way to illustrate progression is to give them more imbalance skills which is hard to digest from our point of view. The character developments in here is also not that refined; to me Kuroko does seems more like a side-kick until recently.

For Kuroko: I thought it was fine till the 'entering-the-zone' and the latest emperor eye come into play. Previously, the realistism is already kind of iffy but at least acceptable now it is just over the top; ridiculous if I must say. Perhaps they try to incorporate battle scene/concepts into this? Could it be due to Jump's influence? Well, like OP, I do certainly hope they can steer the direction back to a more plot, character and story development approach instead of introducing more imbalance skills with each match but it does not look too positive with Emperor eye winning that match, with the setting looking to a finale between Misdirection+Zone versus Emperor Eye. There is just no way Kuroko pair would win at the moment so Author will have to introduce a even more absurd (if I must say) technique to counter the Emperor Eye. I think the analogy is like when someone tells a lie, he often ends up telling more lies to round up the initial lie; so like imbalance technique have to be countered by likewise techniques. I do not think there is any coming back for this manga based on the current flow unless they spend considerable time and efforts illustrating the finale.

After all my depressing opinions however, I will still follow this manga (yes you must be thinking I'm a moron) but I do from the beginning like the story, like how Kuroko being a unlikely hero rising up and supporting his team and despite the current state of story, I will still wish to see it till the end.

My 2 penny.

Edited by Wayne Low, 24 September 2012 - 03:55 AM.

[Makahiya]

Hahaha! Set aside PoT, E21, AnK or any known sports manga for the mean time. Please do try "Yuuto". a speed skating sports manga that has lots of potential just that no one translates it now. ^^b though not sure about its status now a days.

Yuuto, the second series by Hotta Yumi (creator of Hikaru no Go).

EDIT: saw at baka-updates -
Status in Country of Origin
3 Volumes (Complete)

Edited by Makahiya, 04 December 2012 - 03:17 PM.

[Kokai]

well I was thinking about knb in comparison to es21 (I haven't finished pot because their skills got so over the top it annoyed me), it's true that the super powers or skills in knb will seem more apparent than in es21 because as said earlier, the teams in basketball are much smaller so they stand out more.
the main difference is I think overall skill levels.
in es21 every player had a position and (except maybe shin, agon and yamato) couldn't do anything but their special position. sena can only run fast, monta is only good at catching etc.
in knb most players can do anything(passing, scoring, drives etc (sorry I'm not that knowledgeable about basketball) and get a special skill on top of that, so their overall level seems higher BUT that is only the difference in sports. it was said in es21 that they need specialized players, who are good at one thing and one thing only because american football is such a specialized sport.
basketball IS different from that, each player needs a certain diverse set of skills(I may be wrong on that one). so of course it will seems more overpowered but knb is definitly closer to es21 than pot.
though I gotta say kise's perfect copy is simply ridiculous.

[Amelie]

Hmm, I don't think there's too many overly supernatural elements in the series. Misdirection is just not being noticed, is that really something supernatural? And the "power ups" during matches mostly consisted with Kagami just jumping higher.

The most supernatural thing probably would be Kise's copy ability and Akashi's Emperor's Eye, but by then I'm already used to having a bit of supernatural in sports manga so I can just shrug it off. I guess the "zone" is a bit supernatural too, but to me it's just like being super focused and making less mistakes while playing. 

Also, comparing it straight off with Prince of Tennis is a bit much, seeing of Prince of Tennis is completely ridiculous where the abilities of the character is no longer skill, but just superpowers.

[DesertDawn]

Sometimes I just can´t stand the supernatural powering up - even if its just a normal skill descirbed "a little" dramatically. But if its made nice and the whole story doesn´ßt relies on it its fine and funny.

Well I guess there are some mangakas that could make "crossing a street" into a serious and thrilling sport manga

[xKuruka]

Coming from a girl who's not particularly interested in sports, and even less in stories about them - I have to say that I think the super skills is a factor in what made me read this manga, along with PoT. PoT, (only the original, not the current ongoing series) was a childhood favourite of mine and the only other sport manga I've followed besides KuroBasu. I think that the fantasy element is what was able to make me interested in tennis and basketball, as it makes it seem more exciting. I'm not saying that the real sport isn't, but it isn't particularly my cup of tea. 

 

With that said, I also agree that too much is plain ridiculous. As the story progresses, I find that I've learned a little bit more about the sport than I did before reading (due to the tidbits of rules and facts the mangaka puts in, along with a little side-research of my own) and like to see tactics in use, rather than special moves being fired from here and there. The New Prince of Tennis has gone way too far, that I had to drop it several years back. I haven't touched it since. I find that KnB is still all right, although with the Seirin vs Rakuzan match - you never know.

 

Spoiler

Akashi was revealed to have not one but two powers - as if his first wasn't OP enough