Lastest chapter Discussion
#1
Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:39 PM
Feel free to discuss what you thought of the lastest chapters here.
#2
Posted 22 April 2012 - 05:40 AM
#3
Posted 23 May 2012 - 06:21 PM
- Hououin Kyouma likes this
Never forget where you came from; never stop moving onwards. The future is ours for the taking.
What is the difference between a MAN and a SLAVE? The man chooses, the slave obeys.
A wise one knows truth lies in the middle - as all the Opposites are unified unto One.
There is a system in chaos, just as light shines at it's brightest in the dark.
#4
Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:26 AM
Ah, if only Kai knew of the Christian faith then he could have found the solution to his dilemma ...
Edited by Moloch, 17 August 2013 - 11:35 AM.
#5
Posted 18 August 2013 - 04:36 AM
I would have let them go, then ambush them, that evil leader has to die to save lives. And, Kai was left alone to do his killing with the others...
I understand being reluctant to kill people, but sometimes you have to, to save anothers life, even your own life. So when all other reasonable options have been exhausted...
*reads on and edits in*
Ohhh big surprise, NOT. This could have been seen a mile away, no hunters instinct necessary. I mean even if it weren't for that he obviously planned to attack them from the start unless they surrendered completely, even if that crazy guy had been willing to negotiate some terms, what if they were unreasonable terms, did Ryou really think he would let them just walk out peacefully when those terms were refused?
And I see Sei is continuing with his lame, 'I won't kill, even if it means some of my friends or myself getting killed' philosphy. Blaming himself for that guy wandering off that cliff.. give me a break. If he had killed that boss, then he wouldn't have had to shoot the stooge guy in the leg, which is probably deadly long term(especially since that evil boss guy will probably eat em) I wonder how many other people will die, because Sei refuses to kill Sawada.
And how many more because of another person, Kai, though it hasn't reached that stage yet since I suppose you could say he hasn't exhausted all options with Kai, but it's close, and he's not even moving on the subject at the moment, and who else is going to die while this festers. For starts, he could bloody well tell the rest of the guys in the group what's happening.
Edited by truepurple, 18 August 2013 - 05:53 AM.
#6
Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:33 AM
... I wonder how many other people will die, because Sei refuses to kill Sawada.
And how many more because of another person, Kai...
A lot.
#7
Posted 18 August 2013 - 01:46 PM
Kai is not siding with Sawada I bet, more like hes trying to get them to kill off each other. I would not be surprised if he drops off a warning to Sei and company, of course last minute when its really too late just to even things out.
#8
Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:06 PM
Though it was dumb of them to assume they could negotiate with someone who simply takes, I don't think they were completely unprepared for negotiations breaking down, just the bait-and-switch knife pull. Even then the trap was pretty obvious, but I can at least see that they were desperate for an option other than violence.
And I wouldn't say it's stupid for Sei not wanting to take out an unstable individual for the group's safety. In essence that's what Kai is doing. Obviously the degrees of threat they are addressing. are completely different, but there is a "slippery slope" on which someone begins to judge another's right to live or die. The leader kills an outside threat,then one from within, then goes mad with the power. It's a pretty freaking common theme in survival stories, especially one like this which is specifically about the inherent value of live. Killings not as easy a decision to make as it is from a practical 3rd person perspective, especially with the sympathy that arises from everyone coming from strikingly similar situations as they mentioned. They're all sort of fucked up. But killing someone should mean something. The guy with the knife was just immediate self defense, and wasn't intended to kill.
Edited by IHavoc, 20 August 2013 - 03:18 PM.
#9
Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:24 PM
Come now, throughout the ages there have been soldiers who kill in the battlefield, yet don't go home and slaughter everyone. Even soldiers who kill the women and children of their enemies, yet don't do this at home. People have killed intruders in their home in self defense and police have killed in the line of duty, neither usually find themselves on slippery slops (of course it usually bothers them, especially at first) Even Mat of the story, that reformed thief guy, killed and aside from some nightmares, didn't slide down any slope. So someone who values human life as much as Sai, certainly wouldn't slide down a slop.
Killing someone should mean something, and I understand Sai avoiding killing those thief guys chasing after him to kill him, barely. But with Kai and Sawada, its painfully obvious they need to die. Aside from the threat to their community, Sawada is a poison to those around him, the women living as sex slaves to everyone, and the men as slaves to him. For his own community, he should die.
Who is Sai to put his worry about the ethics of killing above all the lives Kai and Sawada will continue to take and destroy because they keep on living? It might be a common theme in comics for this to be a slippery slop, but in reality it wouldn't be. Killing either or or both of these guys is nowhere near the edge of any morale or mental slop.
Sai kills boars, deer, peasants, fish, without any hesitation, to survive, for his friends to survive, for the balance of the island. Kai and Sawada need to die for all those reasons, and I would not say either of those evil men have any more right to life then a fish, and certainly not more then the deer Sai so admires. Aside from which, Kai plans to kill himself eventually anyway (and has said as much to Sai) it's just a question of how many people he takes with him.
Also, Sai shot Sawadas henchman, and knowing how dangerous simple wounds are, should realize how deadly that can be without medicine etc, even if in a nonlethal area. So how can Sai think its more morally acceptable to kill the henchman just following orders because he's frightened, rather then the boss forcing him to act.
I don't think they were completely unprepared for negotiations breaking down, just the bait-and-switch knife pull. Even then the trap was pretty obvious, but I can at least see that they were desperate for an option other than violence.
For there to be a trap, then there would be no chance for negotiations in the first place. They should have been prepared for negotiations to break down. What was the alternative, Sawada demands they give him meat and fish for nothing in exchange, and Sawada no longer bothers them? Anyone who would think that is living in a fantasy land completely divorced from their reality.
Let's look at it from the other side. Sawada is greedy and thinks of himself as king. He is cannibalistic. This is something he made clear to them when he visited them. He is opportunistic and thinks nothing of others, as made painfully evident when he tried to kidnap a bunch of the girls of the community. From this, they can also easily figure out that any terms he could possibly demand of them, would include surrendering one or more of their female companions, which is absolutely unacceptable to them.
So such a person, who they know to be such a person, the main males from the other community have all wondered into your area. You got them outnumbered, and with a surprise attack you can kill them and own everything, from Sawada's perspective, he would be crazy to truly negotiate with them, crazy to not try to kill them all.
It was stupid well beyond the pale for them to think they could ever negotiate with Sawada, to think that the four of them carrying weapons and Sawada desiring to avoid conflict ( even less then baseless assumption) would bring Sawada to the negotiating table, short of actually getting terms they could ever swallow in a thousand years from him. And these four apparently don't learn from history either, because this is just like with the thieves, except their opponent is more arrogant and confident, greedy and evil, and with the thieves, they outnumbered thieves, and still lost due to hesitation! where it was the reverse when they walked into Sawadas area, they were outnumbered, yet still the only ones hesitating.
I hate it when authors make characters randomly super geniuses or dumb as rocks to suit the story and the direction they want it to go in. And in this example, all four must have daydreamed their way into Sawadas area with nothing but cobwebs in their heads. "We don't want to kill anyone, so let's just make a suicidal walk to their village instead. Then when we're dead, all the women we know as friends and lovers, can be raped as slaves for Sawadas sake, while others get killed by him." *others nod their heads in agreement* "Yeah, that's a much better idea then using some violence ourselves or just saying home and not walking to our deaths."
Also, weapons are only decoration if your not willing to use them. If Sawada knew how pathetically stupid Sai is in this regard, they would all probably be dead right now, since Sai probably wouldn't kill him even after he started killing his friend. Kai's greatest gift to Sawada will be to tell him that Sai (their main protector) is soft in the head, and won't kill, even to save people around him (and that he is out of the community, into the mountains alot)
P.S. I know it wouldn't be easy to take a human life for the first time, but Sai would just have to overcome that, just like he overcame that with the deer.
Edited by truepurple, 20 August 2013 - 04:13 PM.
- BoldChild likes this
#10
Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:18 PM
Soldiers don't really bear the full responsibility of the judgement on a personal basis since they're following orders, and even then there are psychological effects. They decide on a situational basis whether someone does or doesn't die. Not whether they should.
And I'm not saying the Sei will become like Kai, but that their actions would be comparable enough to bother him. I'm also not saying that he shouldn't kill Sawada. Your comparison to maintaining the balance of the island is apt- I think the beginning of that realization could be found before he shot the knife weilder. He has to make the connection to the underlying problem/imbalance and take action against Sawada. But the point is it is difficult, it's apparently contradictory to what he's learned up till that point, while in the following chapters he learns of this role of regulator they have to play on the island.
To me it is stupid of him but not inappropriate that he hesitated at that particular time.
And I don't think anyone's really qualified as a super genius so far. Most have been emotionally unstable, abandoned people, lost focus. Not to this degree I'll admit. They did prepare at least a bit for negotiations to break down, though it makes no sense why they'd believe negotiations could occur in the first place. It's dumb to the point of irrational but I can understand the general sentiment, which is they're being naive and can't think of any other solution. One could argue that they were unaware of their numbers or Sawada's level of control over all of them, but that still doesn't explain why they didn't turn tail once they found out.
It probably served more to show that Sei was moving more in a direction that was capable of regulating their enemies than Ryou was, though hamfistedly, and not to such a degree that you're satisfied with Sei's decisions. But I think ultimately he'll have to make the decision to deal with Sawada conclusively.
P.S. Okay so were basically in agreement.
You're stance is just harsher. And I'm a bit wishy washy.
Edited by IHavoc, 20 August 2013 - 04:30 PM.
#11
Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:44 PM
BTW, edited in content a few times since posting that last post.
Even modern soldiers with less clear enemies, don't require orders to kill in the battlefield. It is situation, and the situation easily calls for Kais and Sawadas death, the alternative is the death of alot of other people. Also, orders don't make the consequences to ones mind, of killing, any less harsh.
Sawada's level of control over all of them
That was shown when he tried to kidnap the girls with a few of his minions. Mat clearly told them that they were his slaves when they tried to talk them over onto their side. All the information from Mat, the prostitute, and others who have escaped from Sawadas side, should have told them how much everyone is under Sawadas thumb.
unaware of their numbers
If second hand source from those who were there and escape was considered useless, then scout ahead with your Sai hunter using the trees for cover when possible.(or use the night as cover) No excuse for them to not be able to know or find out both of those things. Anyway, a number higher then four should be expected.
If nothing else, they could have had Sai deliver a note with a arrow, saying to meet them at a neutral place with limited entourage. Of course Sawada would agree then try to stab in the back with a ambush, but at least it would have been a bit less stupid. And the ambush could be detected and dealt with etc. Anyway they had the chance to talk when Sawada came over to kidnap the girls, and Sawada clearly refused to talk then.
Let me put it this way. I think readers would have given a collective WTF/WTH if Sawada had been willing to negotiate anywhere close to reasonable terms/if they hadn't been attacked. And Sai's group knows almost as much as the readers do about Sawadas camp.
To me it is stupid of him but not inappropriate that he hesitated at that particular time.
At any one particular time, sure. But Sai's been doing nothing but hesitating and avoiding. He had no problem going on a hunting trip, even with Kai possibly killing people back at base while he was out. It took Kai trying to kill a girl he likes in front of his eyes for Kai to act, and even then it was half assed and hesitant. For someone who has new confidence and desire to win and to protect the lives and minds of his friends, Sai sure doing a horrible job with this extremely abnormal desire to avoid taking human life. Alot of these characters have extremely extreme personalities, rather at least bordering on the unrealistic side, if not already there.
Edited by truepurple, 20 August 2013 - 04:53 PM.
#12
Posted 17 January 2014 - 08:49 PM
I'm surprised some of them are acting so hesitant to kill even after knowing for a while that any girls over their were being raped. None of this would be a problem if they had killed Sawada when they had the chance. Well, unless their is another leader somewhere lurking in the shadows.
Seems sort of odd, as I know a large majority of humans in my community would be itching to kill this kind of guy. (based on my own experince)
#13
Posted 18 November 2014 - 10:41 AM
Sorry for make a really silly question but... When did this Ryuu guy show up for the first time? Is he from the second group? Because he suddenly being the leader comes from nowhere to me. I have a hard time remembering names and faces though.
#14
Posted 30 June 2015 - 12:54 PM
Sorry for make a really silly question but... When did this Ryuu guy show up for the first time? Is he from the second group? Because he suddenly being the leader comes from nowhere to me. I have a hard time remembering names and faces though.
If I'm not wrong he was shown as some kind of useless guy or someone similar to Cap in the beginning. He did appear a few times but he was no one important.
Also, where's Ken in the last chapter, and why don't they get Liv to shoot too ? And why the fuck is Sei not teaching Cap to make more bows ?
#15
Posted 22 December 2015 - 07:26 PM
I missed out on a bunch of chapters in between and jumped right into the after rape scene. Thought tomo was sei and was like WTF happened here lol.
Edited by kshin, 22 December 2015 - 07:27 PM.