61 replies to this topic

[TheCrowSword]

Great people (mainly me) started being off topic In another thread so I made this... if you guys wanna discuss something off topic why don't take it here...

1'st discussion is about what is within human limitations, what to believe and not believe in, historically.

Spoiler

Actually, just because someone is a monster, doesn't mean he or she is invulnerable. I don't buy any of those mythical soldiers in history who supposedly killed hundreds to thousands, by themselves. Or if a person's declared to be invincible, it just means someone else hasn't found a way to beat them. Even great soldiers and commanders have been felled by an arrow from some newbie archer or some stab wound when they're already injured, exhausted or not paying attention. And okay... I can't quote history but even small insects can prove to be a pestilence.

But at the same time, since TOG is full of strategies, plots and politics, you can be sure things will get really complicated. Have fun... watching people struggle to find ways to kill or capture Baam just 'cos they can't kill him directly. Fufufufufufu... this is going to be fun.

Also, we need to remember this: from now on, it's no longer just Baam. He's a team and I think they're going to put him on a leash after they've figured out how to crack the chestnut. They will also probably have to watch out for one another, if they really want to make it through the upper Floors.

I hope that doesn't happen :/ (would kill my image of Baam)

and don't compare fantasy to reality... Really what you believe about reality, what a human can accomplish alone...
people tend to be about the same strength, Genrals are rarely good at first hand combat, they get famous by winning battles, discovering new tactics, and using new technology, as well as sundering the moral of their enemies and exhausting them. There isn't a single human who can take out hundreds of other humans, without these...

A human in combat, can win on experience only for sure... but no human has enough stamina to take on that many people... a battle one against many is a difficult thing best considered impossible, and only possible in the extremes (weak guys scared and inexperienced against trained masters).... and even then there is hard limit for what can be complicated...
humans are human... we are one species and we all share same abilities and disadvantages...

one very important fact never to be underestimated, is fatigue... it is really a great gap it creates from what one can and cannot accomplish
also you would be supervised at how weak martial arts are against weight and strength technique, is really no that important... most martial artist win by using their trained bodies and reflexes, not their fancy kicks and punches...

Martial artist who go against a person with a knife, no matter how skilled, will put his life in grave danger... That said it is usually easy to tell the difference between people who are dangerous with a knife and not...

lol sorry for blabbering...

Actually,TheCrowSword, I could name quite a few real-life people who managed to tackle dozens, or even hundreds, of enemies in real life, and come out victorious.
A Japanese swordsman, Miyamoto Musashi, was ambushed by an entire school of 70 swordsmen after he had killed both of the leaders of the schools in duels. He killed them all. He went to trial for 70 counts of murder, but was released when the court found that he acted in self defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

Then there's Sergeant York:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York

Then, there's the famous battle of Thermopylae, where 300 Spartans held off a force of hundreds of thousands of Persians for 3 days:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae

Or the Roman battle in England, the last battle of the Boudiccan Rebellion, where 10,000 Roman soldiers tackled an army of 230,000 Britons and didn't just hold off the massive opposing force; the Romans won!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudiccan_rebellion

That's just a few examples. There are literally thousands of cases where one skilled soldier has killed dozens of similarly armed, but much less skilled, opponents. Fatigue does factor into a battle, but I would bet on the fatigued veteran soldier over a well-trained, well-equipped, but inexperienced raw recruit any day.

and 95% of them are 90% likely to be lies(exaggerated ever heard of the winner creates the truth and what is right and wrong?)...
but awesome that you came here, but if you want to take this discussion further we need to take it someplace else it's off topic in this thread XD

if you want to just click my profile go to profile feed and write some stuff there ^^

reverse order of quotes

Spoiler

lol... I'm making a thread for this really... we will take it there... lolz..... also documented proof....

Link to the new Thread http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/4914-the-great-hopefully-everlasting-discussion-thread/

well, i find that you define your limits
i'm sure in 1k years no one will believe in space travel, or atomic bomb, they will be considered 95% 90% exaggerated lies

unsure this might be more ToG related in truth

Spoiler

I think

I think there is something to this kind of thinking actually. Personally I think fighters in the tower of god works a bit like Super Combatants from the game Dominions 3. In that game it is popular to forge magic items and give them to powerful commanders. Often the commanders can also buff themselves before battle with magic.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/78/aella6ns.png/

Supercombatants are all very powerful and can literally fight an infinite amount of normal troops and win. But they are not invincible. There is no supercombatant that can be immune to everything. There are not enough equipment slots and the chassis are not strong enough and there are situations witch a single unit simply can not win in.

One of the big newbie mistake for making a supercombatant is to not factor in fatigue. Every attack or spell he uses will cause fatigue and the more fatigue he gets the easier it is to hit and the more critical hits he get against him. Even the strongest guy will die if he falls unconscious and someone slits his throat.

Eddit: sorry for moving around on it a bit, but would have been an even bigger mess otherwise.

Now what I find interesting is these 4 links...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudiccan_rebellion

so what are peoples thoughts on them? are the realistic, modified, exaggerated, or lies...

Edited by TheCrowSword, 16 March 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[Rafa El]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wizna
also sabaton made a song about it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivgCD31iKyg

[TheCrowSword]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wizna
also sabaton made a song about it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivgCD31iKyg

That is much more reliable than the other links ^^ thanks a lot for it... although it is hardly as impressive as some of the others, although an absolutely awesome known battle with reliable information

all stats are not certain of course but reliable, says 900 German soldiers were killed in action they apparently had high moral, and they had the defensive position... and nice tactics, this is impressive but not impossible.

anyone disagreeing with this?

[Katzen]

a few real-life people who managed to tackle dozens, or even hundreds, of enemies in real life, and come out victorious.

have you guys heard about Simo Häyhä? he has the highest recorded number of confirmed sniper kills–505–in any major war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBeYRslzK4c

i agree with the fact that not all stats being certain. especially with battles that happened so long ago (battle of thermopylae, etc)

or if you'd prefer to read things about him in a more lighthearted note: http://badassoftheweek.com/hayha.html

[Fearless]

Ah this is a bit of an annoying topic, I'll say what I know, which I profess isn't alot nor can be backed up with proof, just vague ' I thinks ' and 'I remember reading somewhere' I would look for references, but the lazy in me.

Well for starters let's look at the Boudiccan rebellion, from what I remember, it was started by Queen Boudicca! (obviously) After the Romans toke over her tribe? after her husband died, (previously the Romans had some sort of agreement with them) ignoring all the gritty details, she was pissed, raised an army, and called help from neighbouring tribes, whom were also pretty pissed at the Romans, then they marched down to Londunium (Modern day equivalent, London!) and laid it to waste, then the romans(I think the majority or larger forces of the romans were in wales subjacating the druids, Don't quote me on that) were pretty pissed (for obvious reasons) and marched to meet them, and they fought and the Romans won.

Let's look at the facts: I'm not sure of numbers (I'm not looking this up, i'm running from memory here) The 'rebels' outnumbered the Romans, whatever way you look at it, even if the Romans were exaggerating the number of of 'rebels' the number would probably still be higher then the number of Romans present, again due to the fact that the rebels were more from every part of tribal society, in other words, their was no 'professional army' (as for alot of places in the world at the time, and coming times, there was no professional army, just people who were called upon). So thery're were more celts.

I'm not sure, on the exact battle details, but the celts had blocked their own retreat, I think from sheer stupidity ( Tactics taking part here (may have something to do with their chariots) ), then the romans, outnumbered they may have been, but significantly more disciplined, expeirenced, all armoured, probably much more and better then the celts, guided by a comptent general, could easily destroy the army.

Yeah there could have been a better explantion, but I got distracted? Meh don't read this, it will probably confuse you.

[TheCrowSword]

some other off topic stuff

Spoiler

Unlikely. Very.. unlikely.

lol I agree on this xD

@The Corinthian
interesting theory, although I'm not sure if I agree with transferring that to ToG xD (after all it was made to set real life in a different position then ToG)

i think Rafa El meant a thousand year ago

you don't believe in flying cities, lasers or atomic bombs in ancient indian vedas, do you? it's all been before
i meant 1k years in the future

I'm confused now. =_=;




Still confused =_=;

I don't know what a "vedas" is, please clarify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas

so you're saying that in old writings, 1000 years ago, they would not have believed the things we have now?
Edit: correction, like 4000 years ago. I recall something about it being that old...

i am saying two things:
1,in 1k years, in the future, atomic bomb and space travel will be a myth and laughed upon (i am also saying that our civilization will fall)
2, about 8k-12k years ago there was an atomic war in india, recorded in ancient indian writings called vedas, no one really believes even now, much less 200 years ago
there is some physical evidence to support the writings though

@fearless no it's the opposite it's a bit interesting, I'll have to look a bit more into it before saying more about it though, and this topic was made for confusing thought and getting them out and discussing with people

[pizhhh]

Since we're talking about human limitations...

http://www.cracked.com/article_17019_5-real-life-soldiers-who-make-rambo-look-like-pussy.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_18429_6-soldiers-who-survived-shit-that-would-kill-terminator.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_18810_the-5-most-epic-one-man-rampages-in-history-war.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_19306_the-6-most-epic-one-man-armies-in-history-war.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_16449_7-people-from-around-world-with-real-mutant-superpowers.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_19661_6-real-people-with-mind-blowing-mutant-superpowers.html

I could go on, but I'm too lazy to search for the others..

Edited by Pizhhh, 16 March 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Angelo.]

i kinda miss the age wen "humanity" were warriors! real warriors not some some solider holding a gun but a man who is defined by his skills and not the type of gun or fire power. Gintoki change ma life hahaha...

Edited by Gintoki, 17 March 2012 - 02:17 AM.

[TheCrowSword]

i kinda miss the age wen "humanity" were warriors! real warriors not some some solider holding a gun but a man who is defined by his skills and not the type of gun or fire power. Gintoki change ma life hahaha...

there is little difference today... people holding guns still needs to be skillful, the major difference is that today we have a much greater resource advantage, against the people we're fighting against, the same applies for tech...
this makes it unfair...

this also happened a lot in the time of swords, bows and spears...

[pizhhh]

Yeah, modern soldiers can still pretty much kick your ass and mine, even without weapons, so the "warrior" part is still there. And when you really think about it, humans actually got better at hurting and killing each other, only the way we do it just became more impersonal.

Edited by Pizhhh, 17 March 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[TheCrowSword]

Yeah, modern soldiers can still pretty much kick your ass and mine, even without weapons, so the "warrior" part is still there. And when you really think about it, humans actually got better at hurting and killing each other, only the way we do it just became more impersonal.

I must disagree with the end statement, but please state what makes you think it's more impersonal xD

[pizhhh]

The person who pushes the button to launch a Tomahawk never meets anyone he's about to blow up. I think that's pretty impersonal.
And in todays age of UAVs and ballistic missiles, you don't even have to be in the same continent to kill somebody.

Edited by Pizhhh, 17 March 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[TheCrowSword]

The person who pushes the button to launch a Tomahawk never meets anyone he's about to blow up. I think that's pretty impersonal.
And in todays age of UAVs and ballistic missiles, you don't even have to be in the same continent to kill somebody.

the most deaths in war are still caused by the good old factors... mainly guns... so it's still very personal... and in the past it wasn't that personal for a king, lord or emperor either... since most of them simply commanded where to invade and not... so it's not really that large a difference,

[pizhhh]

Even guns, or any ranged weapon for that matter, have a sense being impersonal in them. It might sound something like a character in a manga would say, but there is a certain bond when people are brawling or crossing swords with each other up close. And politicians will always be detached from any conflict. They might be the ones that start wars, but they almost never participate, so it will always seem impersonal for them.

[TheCrowSword]

Even guns, or any ranged weapon for that matter, have a sense being impersonal in them. It might sound something like a character in a manga would say, but there is a certain bond when people are brawling or crossing swords with each other up close. And politicians will always be detached from any conflict. They might be the ones that start wars, but they almost never participate, so it will always seem impersonal for them.

you speak like you yourself have shot people down with guns... from what I have heard from soldiers, there is a very clear and very personal, enemy ally connection in the field, not that I know much about that though.

But very well I'll just stop commenting on that topic xD

[pizhhh]

Unless you're a complete monster, every action meant to hurt another person is bound to come with its share of negative emotions. And no, I haven't shot anybody with a real gun, so I'm speaking based on personal opinion. If my views are wrong then please feel free to correct me.

But very well I'll just stop commenting on that topic xD

Oh, and by the way sir, If you're dropping this topic, I suggest you start a new one. If you still have any intention of keeping this thread alive, that is.

[TheCrowSword]

Unless you're a complete monster, every action meant to hurt another person is bound to come with its share of negative emotions. And no, I haven't shot anybody with a real gun, so I'm speaking based on personal opinion. If my views are wrong then please feel free to correct me.



Oh, and by the way sir, If you're dropping this topic, I suggest you start a new one. If you still have any intention of keeping this thread alive, that is.

... not really, I mean I don't really have any intention to keep the thread alive, this was simply made so that when stuff got too off topic, guys could go here and sort it out... but doesn't seem like they would even do that, so guess it lost the purpose...
and well correcting you is something I can't do, but my opinion still didn't move from you comment...

and if you want something else to discuss what do you think about this topic and source ?

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

and when I said dropping topic, what I meant was the specific case about being personal and impersonal because beyond what's been stated so far, if no soldier or something comes here the rest will be simple wild guesses...

Edited by TheCrowSword, 17 March 2012 - 12:50 PM.

[pizhhh]

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

Well, that was.... enlightening. I guess it's true that once you get used to media scaremongering, you start to consider it as fact.

[annihilator]

should i add me 2 cents in here roar? or i will just go off topic?... lols...

peace!...

/ok.. ok.. i'm going... lorz