77 replies to this topic

[bushwhacker2k]

Connection with One Piece...hm, it seems the other guy confused the original poster op with one piece.

That makes sense, I'll have to clarify in the future.

Anyways, I think its ridiculous to call this manga shonen. Its definitely seinen, what with the topics it covers and the over the top ecchi.

Over-the-top ecchi has never really been a deal breaker, and I can't really say which it is since I can't list the topics it covers (once again though, it's generally the maturity and depth with which topics are approached that determines it, rather than the topics themselves).

[The Dude]

What kind of ridiculous overgeneralisation is that supposed to be? Are you saying that every manga is rich with such unsettling amount of chauvinism wherein every female character, main/side/weak/strong will end up subservient to every male character in it, mostly through the public bondage/humiliation ritual, that it makes the practice justified? Or have you never given any thought to the insanity of the idea that a woman can be attracted/aroused by the men who grope them on trains/in gyms?

If you haven't noticed, Ken is actually the living embodiment of chivalry and has turned down every single chance at another woman for his love interest. If anything, this manga is for guys who through their own eyes view women as how you described this manga/manwha presents them. In other words, Ken is a true man and through this story he shows how you can be one to.

If you want to complain about how women are portrayed sexually then go hound the porn industry.

(Lastly, you're complaining about another countries culture at this point. Maybe you should go to Japan/Korea and complain there?)

Edited by Vile, 06 May 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[Leonel Abreu]

User was banned for this post.

[Pablo Benito Nuñez]

Ok, I just read ALL (except for the banned/deleted) posts of this topic, mainly because I liked the discussion it brought up, also I just made this account to contribute to the argument.

Here it goes:


1) The Original Poster (OP) comes with the realization that in "all" of Boichi's work women are portrayed as "prostitutes or deviants", since I have only read SKR by Boichi I can't really talk about all of the works that people have mentioned but there is one thing I know for sure and that is that although there is a share of fanservice the character design and depth it's not made purely by it. For example: during the red light district arc (can't remember the actual name) a prostitute is saved by Ken and she tries to pay him by giving him a blowjob, now, if that was all there is to it then I could agree with the OP but it just is not. When she tries to she is convinced that all she can do is to work in the sex industry, she is mortified and the whole scene is filled with emotion and deep thought of what is right and wrong, of course, if read lightly or just fast it can seem somewhat fanservice-ish, but that is if you read it skipping text and looking away during serious talk, so yeah, it can be read both ways, but when read seriously there is no doubt of the amazing portrayal of internal struggle of every character.

2) On to the Seinen - Shonen feud (I know is no feud but it sounds cool so I am keeping it). I am the kind of guy that just reads the tag to know if it is seinen or shonen and just goes along with it, but since the topic evolved into it so here it goes. First of all what I understand by seinen and shonen, so that there are no comments like "oh you don't know a thing" or whatever, dude, if I am wrong I am letting you know before you have to actually read about my argument.

Ok, to me shonen is a manga that focus primarily on male audience and it covers a wide age range from children to teenagers, storywise it delves superficially, appealing to easy to target feelings such as friendship, determination, unrequitted love, and all that stuff that everyone suffers from during highschool. Imo shonen hardly ever has a true tragic scene, we see parents/family members die and friends to leave the main character behind but it doesn't get deep enough to actually constitute tragedy, at least in the begining. As for seinen I take it as shonen for grown ups, it's primarily for men, the age range goes from 18+ and storywise tends to delve super deep, it targets a wider range of feelings such as treason, compromise, relationship's love/hate plus the easy to target aforementioned feelings and has a more serious point of view towards each situation.

Onto the actual argument, SKR is most definetely seinen, first it has sex scenes almost from the begining (I am pretty sure that would take it out of any shonen mag), second it's story has tons of plots that require an "adult"(not age related) perspective to understand and really enjoy and lastly the topics it unravels are dense and filled with social criticism which makes for an older audience.

3) About the double-standar.To say what the OP said about women in Boichi's work and not say the same about the male characters is a pretty huge double standar, if only by the bodies there is hardly an ugly or un-fit female character in SKR but the same rule applies to the men, right?
SKR has a magnificent yet fantastic way to show the dark side of a particular society, is in light of the fantasy element that every muscle looks like it's been trained a whole life and every ass looks like a perfect heart, or that knife cuts, bullets and other skin-tearing blows don't leave any scar on some characters but that is just in appearance, if the mindset of each character were to be taken into consideration there is not sexism at play, nor chauvinism or misoginism, all there is is people trying to make the best for their own desires according to their own standards, and trying to find a flaw in that to call it this of that is just silly, I have yet to see a pattern in SKR characters(male or female) to take one side or the other, so far imo there is no such thing as sexism in SKR.


Pablo.

[Darkwings]

Is this is really still going on?

If anyone is still addressing a double-standard problem than here it is:

Well, not that I'm arguing here but I don't think men are really bothered to be thought of as such

This is the very definition of double-standard, generalization, and 'applying your opinion to others'. Everything packed together in a single period.

Edited by Darkwings, 15 May 2012 - 12:53 AM.

[bushwhacker2k]

Is this is really still going on?

If anyone is still addressing a double-standard problem than here it is:



This is the very definition of double-standard, generalization, and 'applying your opinion to others'. Everything packed together in a single period.

I went over this post a few times and I'm genuinely unsure how to reply to this. Can you elaborate?

[cauthon]

I'm sorry, but I'm a guy and I call bullsh*t on all the other guys who are bringing up this 'double standard' of SKR men being ideal. Men like being portrayed as powerful, ripped, dominating, able to expose their pectorals and 6-packs, yet sensitive and chivalrious. Women, however, do not enjoy being portrayed as simply beautiful curves with a strong-willed personality. I can't tell how many mangas I've read where everyone loves the male MC because he is everything a male expects an ideal male to be, and the women hate the female lead because she is everything a male expects an ideal female to be.

One thing I would have to say is that all women, ALL of them (and I have read ALL of Boichi's stuff) seem to be on a lower rung of intelligence and will-power than the men. That may be Boichi's intention, conscious or not, maybe because of his traditional Korean background, his work on ero, or simply his style/type of manga this is. This is a manga geared towards a male audience after all (unfortunately for some).

I read the posts and rofl at people saying that this manga promotes 'chivalriousness' and 'turning down opportunities'. Just lol. To me that just proves the OPs point...why are all the women in this manga the ones who are reaching and desiring and not denying (like the men always do)? The women are always subservent to the males in SKR, lets be real. No matter how strong-willed, admirable and intelligent an SKR woman might be, Boichi has a way of making me think of beautiful curves eventually. To women, that is a no no. When I look at SKR men, Boichi makes me idol them. When I look at SKR women, Boichi makes me desire them. When women see SKR women, they see admirable, yet smutty. See the difference? I fail to see the male double standard you speak of.

Boichi always gives decent scenarios in all his works, even the ero ones, and fleshes it out with his characteristic style that can be identified from a mile away. It's a shame that some are offended by it, but I enjoy it, others enjoy it, and I think we would lose something without it, and I wouldn't change it. There are artists who will cater to a female audience just as Boichi caters to males here. I completely agree with the OP, but I thank Boichi for letting me choose to read it or not.

[Isramat]

This is fun to read

[Hierofantus]

I was never really thinking about this till now. OP says it annoys him as for me I think it's just part of the series. I mean all the sex stuff disturbs you OP but the violence not? I think BECAUSE there are some nasty things in this manga like rape, violence and others that the meaning of some actions are so deep. Might be I misunderstood something but that's how I see it.

[Squier]

...ok, falling in the possibile troll trap myself but: why not saying the whole truth and noticing the same things about men in SKR?

Or did you miss out the fact that every single man in SKR is a body-builder / martial artis /sex craving beast?
Is Pickaxe perfectly fine in your opinion? Or is this just about women and when it comes to men everything is ok?

Every woman in SKR is supposed to be hot and sexy and/or asking for sex. There's also a lot of panty/boobs shot.
It could be insulting, well yes.

Every man in SKR is muscular, strong, being an idiot when no one is looking and/or a sex maniac. There's also lot of males striking poses and showing off their muscles, removing their clothes in combat for no reason other than looking cool.
It could be insulting, well yes.

Denying half of that is called being biased.

And it could be dumb/insulting/shallow...except that's intentionally exagerated.
Every character is lampshading every possibile stereotype and cliché involved to make fun of itself.

Boichi is making fun of every single character, even Ken 'the Man' is a perfect fool in normal situations.

I personally dislike the more ecchi-oriented works from Boichi (i.e: Space Chief Caisar) for the same reasons stated by the OP, but comparing them to SKR is nonsense.
I'd also prefer less panty shots in SKR, but also less 'male poses' shots at the same time.

There was an arc about prostitution, so of course it involved prostitutes.
Yumin was the victim of an attempted rape. The exact opposite of 'sex-craving' from her part.
The only really sex craving female main character is the tanned crazy weapon freak girl. And no one cares about her, if you didn't notice.

On the other hand Benito and Pickaxe are constantly talking about sex and bragging about their exploits and just being overall abrasive with their remarks.
So, a 'portrayal of men as sex-craving maniacs" ?

If you were actually reading the manga then you should notice the irony of it all.

Fucking smackdown post good sir. Argue for the portrayal of women? Then I argue the portrayal of men. While we're at it, let's just fucking make everyone unisex and androgynous so that we don't have these stupid debates.

[LockONN]

Seriously, i have to agree with Aedra, and whats more with all this depravity the author has continued to keep portraying Ken as "innocent" in such matters which i'm annoyed by how it seems like the author is pleading with all these noble characteristics ken has. it feels like ken has no natural appeal. the same way a person can seem annoying when they're almost to perfect.

[Squirrelz]

More relevant then saying "all woman are sex craving / deviant" you should look at the context.

Prostitute in general has to be rather attractive.
Hostess in general has to be attractive.
Idol in general has to be attractive.
etc etc.

there are only very few woman in this manga who don't have to be attractive for their job.

[omnipwnage]

More relevant then saying "all woman are sex craving / deviant" you should look at the context.

Prostitute in general has to be rather attractive.
Hostess in general has to be attractive.
Idol in general has to be attractive.
etc etc.

there are only very few woman in this manga who don't have to be attractive for their job.

The professions outside of 'idol' don't have a strict guideline as far as appearance is concerned, to be blunt. You'd be very surprised what a man would pay for if he's lonely. And need I say that Yumin doesn't have to appeal sexually to be a police officer, but the story would fold if the MC was never interested in her.

And as for the overall topic of this thread, it would be a lie for anyone on here to say that the vast majority of women in SKR, and honestly the majority of shonen/ seinen works, don't conform to the male masses idea of desirable women, at least on the physical level.

That being said, sex sells. Not to mention that modern women are liberated, and as many men have learned, also enjoy having sex. The true double standard of this discussion is that men wanting sex is because of their nature, wherein women wanting sex is because they are a slut or a deviant.
(And as soon as I typed this out a re-read it, I feel like this is trolling a bit. I do sympathize with the OP, as the main characters that are female have been fleshed out really well personality wise, to give insight to their ideals, and their desires. However, the twins in the casino arc were purely fanservice imo, and all the women that Benito have slept with were just because of his size, which is misogynistic. The inbetween for these two would be the sister portrayed in chapter 95, by the guy from Kazakhstan. She was portrayed as a prostitute, but was shoved into that predicament because of sex trafficking, which is a disgustingly real phenomenon. Would you say that her portrayal is a bad thing, even if it shines the light on something that is currently happening in the real world?)

[Moloch]

[ernabc]

Many guys here are forgetting one thing : the age of our heroes. Ken had 18 in the start of the manga and , in the later chapters , no more than 20. I think it is normal to be portraited so. At his age I was the same, interested only in the women I loved. At my actual age I won't refuse any good looking one.

Edited by ernabc, 07 September 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[ChiqOmar]

Hi all,
I just caught this after reading the latest chapter....

This might be opening another can of worms, but after reading several different manga, from several different authors, I imagine it's not hard to believe that the stress of serial comic-writing could lead to some amount of sexual frustration, isolationism, and anti-social behavior. It can't be that uncommon: after reading about the author of TWGOK, I feel that he might not be the only one in such a situation. As a result, things like "fan-service" may end up having a kind ulterior motive, that perhaps this is a simple way to release that frustration, and at the same time pander to the (likely) male audience.

I'm not a psychologist, but I imagine that people that have been reading anything (books, magazines, comics, whatever) have the ability to read between the lines and see some of the author through their works.

Regarding Boicihi though, I have one thing to say that reveals his mindset to me...
Omake 77.5 for Sun-Ken Rock: the last page: http://vatoto.com/read/_/23114/sun-ken-rock_v12_ch77.5_by_xscansx/4

Yup. He's a guy.

If you think that guys can stave off their chauvinism in their work, you'd be right.
But if you think that prolonged execution of their work would not reveal ANY chauvinism, that wouldn't seem artificial or forced, well, you'd be wrong.
I don't imagine every guy is as easygoing as the guy in "Mangaka-san to Assistant-san to", and they do try to at least rein in their instincts somewhat. But you can't get rid of it. That's the author. That's a guy writing this. And he's portraying women in a comic meant for guys. Where editors and readership is gained by pandering to that audience. If he's allowed to do it, he'll do it, and it'll be a release for him at the same time.

My perspective. As a guy.

[ernabc]

@ChiqOmar , who't the guy there ? The robot or the ass?

[XxionxX]

Fantasy != Reality

Chauvinistic or not, it's just a story. If you don't like it don't read it.

[cov]

Just would like to clarify that a huge number of Biochi's previous works are hentai.

[Weaper]

Just would like to clarify that a huge number of Biochi's previous works are hentai.

just 11 oneshots, less than 250 pages.
11 short stories, which are a little parts of about 40 books. "huge numbers" needs to be relativised here.
SKR: 17 vol
Raqiya: 5 vol
Hotel, Space Chef Caisar, Lovers in Winter, H.E : 1 vol each
the rest are mostly shoujos from the time he was a manwhaka and was still published in Korean (along with several books about the use of photoshop in art, how to draw, etc...)

I'd see him more of a round about and accomplished artist able to use every styles he chose instead of the "hentai mangaka" that such a post wants to point.

Edited by Weaper, 17 September 2012 - 06:49 PM.