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Portrayal of women


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#1
Aedra

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I 've just seen "Yumin Special" so i have to ask, is anyone else bothered by the fact that ALL the women in Boichi's works are portrayed either as sex-craving maniacs(deviants?) or plain prostitutes? I know this manga is for male audience but isn't he overdoing it... I am half-expecting to read the next chapter and see Yumin bondaged by two oiled midgets -.-.

#2
Weaper

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duh, first time you're reading a manga?

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#3
Aedra

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duh, first time you're reading a manga?

What kind of ridiculous overgeneralisation is that supposed to be? Are you saying that every manga is rich with such unsettling amount of chauvinism wherein every female character, main/side/weak/strong will end up subservient to every male character in it, mostly through the public bondage/humiliation ritual, that it makes the practice justified? Or have you never given any thought to the insanity of the idea that a woman can be attracted/aroused by the men who grope them on trains/in gyms?

#4
Weaper

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from the moment a manga is made for "fanservice" I don't see why the hell such a thread is needed. that'd be like manifesting because there was boobs in your porn. OMG why is it here!!!!

for short, don't complain if you get what you came for

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#5
Aedra

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Following post can be considered "flaming" so feel free not to read it.









Weaper, this is going to be the 2nd and the last time i am addressing you, for i am fighting a really strong urge to insult your intelligence :D (...it would be so easy...). The artist in question goes by the pen name "Boichi". He is well known author both in Nippon and S.Korea. Before reading "Sun-ken Rock" i read a collection of one-shots ("Hotel" and "Present" being most prominent) by the above-mentioned author and was astounded by their artwork/story. Manga is a form of art. Those works justified that. Nudity or "boobs" as you say, can be a very powerful symbol in art when illustrated with MEANING. It is well known fact that mangakas earn a pittance so Boichi also does ero mangas on the side, but that is all those are, a way to make a living.
An artist who is capable of creating art, and has proven so, should not abuse the motif of a woman in his main series, only for the sake of appealing to the primitive urges of his male audience.
If you see nothing wrong with the way women act/are treated in "Sun-ken Rock", i sincerely hope that you never find a partner in your whole life or until the moment you change the way you view the women for the better. He/she would probably suffer greatly by your side if you manage to coerce them into relationship, being as eloquent as you are.


P.S. I am knew around here so i do not know if i should generalize all the people on this forum by your example as you did with manga. But if i did i could say that every single person here was a troll who had nothing substantional/meaningful to add to the discussion but was merely laying posts to earn points without actually giving any thought to the topic. So for the sake people whom i am leaving behind on this forum, think before you type. And do not seek accomplishment in the number of posts on a manga-reader site, "duh, first time you're reading a manga?".

#6
bushwhacker2k

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I 've just seen "Yumin Special" so i have to ask, is anyone else bothered by the fact that ALL the women in Boichi's works are portrayed either as sex-craving maniacs(deviants?) or plain prostitutes? I know this manga is for male audience but isn't he overdoing it... I am half-expecting to read the next chapter and see Yumin bondaged by two oiled midgets -.-.


Well, from my experience with games (and, by extention, the game industry) it's because they're pandering to a specific audience because they either don't care about other potential audiences or they don't know how to write good characters that would appeal to other audiences.

duh, first time you're reading a manga?


This was a pretty unhelpful, technically trolling, post. It might help if you elaborate and give reasons to someone is being sincere about something initially in the future.

from the moment a manga is made for "fanservice" I don't see why the hell such a thread is needed. that'd be like manifesting because there was boobs in your porn. OMG why is it here!!!!

for short, don't complain if you get what you came for


Well, the obvious argument is that he came to read a manga, not simply indulge in fanservice pandering to a specific audience. Your second statement confuses me, he obviously DIDN'T get what he came for...

Long story short: the author either isn't trying or has no idea how to write a good female character if fanservice is all they come down to. I am DEFINITELY not pulling the obsolete "if you don't like it, don't read it" card (because it's an invalid argument) but I think there are enough manga out there that if this doesn't have what you seek you can check around and find something worth reading.

"This statement is not true."


#7
Weaper

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Want a detailled post? I considered this thread a troll one but if you insist...

Sun Ken Rock isn't a manga based on fanservice, the female character all have their own personality and if they offend you then so be it.
Sun Ken Rock Gaiden Yumin however is only for fanservice and humor but I guess the ECCHI and COMEDY tags weren't enought... If you want to see another side of Yumin, go read "I want to feed Yumin" and you'll understand.

I won't react to those pseudo insult because I don't consider your opinion to hold any weight or worth... at least for now, up to you to prove me wrong.

The artist in question goes by the pen name "Boichi". He is well known author both in Nippon and S.Korea. Before reading "Sun-ken Rock" i read a collection of one-shots ("Hotel" and "Present" being most prominent) by the above-mentioned author and was astounded by their artwork/story. Manga is a form of art. Those works justified that. Nudity or "boobs" as you say, can be a very powerful symbol in art when illustrated with MEANING. It is well known fact that mangakas earn a pittance so Boichi also does ero mangas on the side, but that is all those are, a way to make a living.
An artist who is capable of creating art, and has proven so, should not abuse the motif of a woman in his main series, only for the sake of appealing to the primitive urges of his male audience.

Please just take half a second and look at the credit page of about every single ones of Boichi's release available, be it Sun Ken Rock, Sun Ken Rock Gaiden, Hotel (the whole compilation), I want to feed Yumin, those Hentai (Lovers in Winter, No Means No and Personal lesson full of love) and you'll be sure to see my name. I can safely assume that I know better about Boichi and I think he is a great Mangaka. My favorite to say the least.
I even made a site dedicated to him: www.sunkenrock.com

So what I mean is, if he want a serie to be full of fanservice, feature those "sex-craving maniacs(deviants?) or plain prostitutes?" then so be it. You might not have seen it but there is a full arc in Sun Ken Rock based on prostitution.

Well whatever, what i mean is that such character might offend those with the most closed minds but if you try not to take everything at the first degree then you'll enjoy these work a lots more.

I still hope that you'll continue to enjoy Boichi's work and maybe it'll allow you to see past the first aspect of things. It'll sure help in the future.
If you have any question about Boichi, feel free to ask. I'm confient enought in the fact that I can answer whatever might bother you.

ps: your ps is quite offensive as you bring some baseless statement. I consider myself as contributing quite a bit to this community and that not to seek those useless "point" that you seems to hold dear.

Edited by Weaper, 11 February 2012 - 01:13 AM.

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#8
bushwhacker2k

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Want a detailled post? I considered this thread a troll one but if you insist...


Something isn't about trolling just because it offends you. Trolling is when something is said only with the intention of inciting anger or argument, without contributing anything beneficial. If someone genuinely feels like women are being portrayed negatively or shallowly then he makes a thread about it there's almost no way he could be trolling.

It's a shame that no one else is contributing to this thread, we could actually learn something. I haven't read this manhwa(or w/e the term) in ages so I don't remember the particulars.

I'm not making any judgments about Sun-Ken Rock, but are you, a fan of this series, yourself saying it's all about fan-service? That's not exactly a point in its favor.

@Aedra: what, specifically, is it that bothers you about the women?

"This statement is not true."


#9
Grumpy

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Well, talking about this subject in SKR forum might get you a quite biased opinion. After all, readers who like SKR will be here. XD People don't like this type of portrayal of women won't be hanging around here (such as myself, I just happened to have glanced at the latest thread) because they just stopped reading it and stopped caring about it.

#10
Weaper

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I'm not making any judgments about Sun-Ken Rock, but are you, a fan of this series, yourself saying it's all about fan-service? That's not exactly a point in its favor.

I'm a big fan of this serie but if you look at what I wrote, you'll see that I make a clear difference between SKR and SKR Gaiden. However as you said that you "haven't read that manga in ages" then you might not know that a sequel with Yumin as MC exist and that it's almost only for fanservice (and good laught).

as for why I thought it was a troll thread, the statement that "ALL the women in Boichi's works are portrayed either as sex-craving maniacs(deviants?) or plain prostitutes?" was so wrong and such a deep misunderstanding of every single character of this manga that I simply wasn't able to take it seriously.

if Aedra is still set on that impression, I can only recommend him/her to reread it and try to understand better the characters of this manga.

and finally, it's not because they are pictured as sexy that they are whores.


ps: Grumpy doesn't read/like SKR? I'm quite saddened :(

Edited by Weaper, 11 February 2012 - 10:56 PM.

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#11
Aedra

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@Aedra: what, specifically, is it that bothers you about the women?



I am bothered by the fact that the author who is capable of reaching incredible depths in his (other) works brought up the subject of women exploitation in modern entertainment industry (sexual abuse, rape, modern-day sex slavery, call it however you want) and used it merely for fan service.The part where that mound of lard raped his own daughter which he, literally, reared for just that opportunity would have been enough to get the point across to even the thickest of skulls. Everything over that was excessive and pure fan service which he often used to make the worst of chauvinistic jokes i have ever seen.
I am bothered by the fact that the main female character's thought as she is standing in front of the mirror is weather or not Ken is not going to be pleased with the body she built for him (seriously!?). But that was covered by bushwacker.
I am sorry if anyone found all this to be trolling, i became rather annoyed after i first posted.

just stopped reading it and stopped caring about it.


Thank you the advice. This pretty much sums it up for me in the end.

#12
bushwhacker2k

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Well, talking about this subject in SKR forum might get you a quite biased opinion. After all, readers who like SKR will be here. XD People don't like this type of portrayal of women won't be hanging around here (such as myself, I just happened to have glanced at the latest thread) because they just stopped reading it and stopped caring about it.


Quite true :D Rather than shooting down SKR I wanted to see what it is that bothers people about things (because I'm just a curious person), hopefully not encouraging anger and flame-wars here :o

I'm not making any judgments about Sun-Ken Rock, but are you, a fan of this series, yourself saying it's all about fan-service? That's not exactly a point in its favor.

I'm a big fan of this serie but if you look at what I wrote, you'll see that I make a clear difference between SKR and SKR Gaiden. However as you said that you "haven't read that manga in ages" then you might not know that a sequel with Yumin as MC exist and that it's almost only for fanservice (and good laught).


You're right, I apologize for misreading your statement.

as for why I thought it was a troll thread, the statement that "ALL the women in Boichi's works are portrayed either as sex-craving maniacs(deviants?) or plain prostitutes?" was so wrong and such a deep misunderstanding of every single character of this manga that I simply wasn't able to take it seriously.


I think the way a lot of internet discussions (or arguments/flame-wars) go is that someone reads something, gets in a certain mindset then wants to talk about it without really considering the implications of the entirety of his/her actions- like posting in the forum of SKR (thus, as Grumpy pointed out, the people responding will most likely be SKR fans) and he puts things in a really negative light which often promotes hostile reactions (because this is the internet, people read into things like that).

if Aedra is still set on that impression, I can only recommend him/her to reread it and try to understand better the characters of this manga.


I'm not trying to demand anything of you (obviously) but pointing out parts about their characters which are unrelated to sexual attractiveness would possibly benefit this train of discussion.

and finally, it's not because they are pictured as sexy that they are whores.


Not absolutely sure I follow this statement, it sounds like you're implying they're whores for other reasons. (Did I misread?)

@Aedra: what, specifically, is it that bothers you about the women?


I am bothered by the fact that the author who is capable of reaching incredible depths in his (other) works brought up the subject of women exploitation in modern entertainment industry (sexual abuse, rape, modern-day sex slavery, call it however you want) and used it merely for fan service.The part where that mound of lard raped his own daughter which he, literally, reared for just that opportunity would have been enough to get the point across to even the thickest of skulls. Everything over that was excessive and pure fan service which he often used to make the worst of chauvinistic jokes i have ever seen.


Ouch, I think I can understand why you'd be bothered by sexual exploitation being used for fan-service.


I am bothered by the fact that the main female character's thought as she is standing in front of the mirror is weather or not Ken is not going to be pleased with the body she built for him (seriously!?).


I've actually seen something vaguely akin to this in another Korean Manhwa(I really don't want to overgeneralize because of the country of origin, but I am seeing something of a theme) called Unbalance x Unbalance (which I enjoyed initially but some parts just pissed me off too much) and I can understand why that would bother you.

I am sorry if anyone found all this to be trolling, i became rather annoyed after i first posted.


I forgive you (unsure if that counts for anything) :D

just stopped reading it and stopped caring about it.


Thank you the advice. This pretty much sums it up for me in the end.


That's been my train of thought in situations like these, I hope you find some good manga here.

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Sorry for my absurdly long posts, I often feel the need to reply to every piece of information.

"This statement is not true."


#13
Weaper

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Not absolutely sure I follow this statement, it sounds like you're implying they're whores for other reasons. (Did I misread?)

yeah, I meant that a girl being sexy doesn't imply that she is a whore.
however SKR feature some prostitute along the story and one even have quite a big role (Miss Yoo), however like I said, it's part of the story which let's remember is based on Mafia, the underworld and crimes...

I'm not trying to demand anything of you (obviously) but pointing out parts about their characters which are unrelated to sexual attractiveness would possibly benefit this train of discussion.

as for that, it'd be far too long but I'll try for a couple characters:
- Yumin: she's a virgin, the daughter of the biggest Yakuza group. A cop that has a special relationship with Ken. She's a sportive and cheerfull girl that knows how to defend herself. The part about her wondering if the body she keep in form everyday will please her future man is normal imo. You can't tell me that girls doesn't worry about their appearance nor about how their loved one see them.
- Kae-Lyn: she's the weapon instructor of the gang, more playfull and with a more liberated sexuality. Even if she love sex and let's be true, like most girls do, she's in no way a slut or some kind of deviant. Girls like her who are true to themselves are quite attractive imo, and not on a sexual way. She's simply the kind of girl that could be the best friend of a guy and that's pretty much what's happening. That's why she's the only girl in the main team.

I hope these thing can help you to understand SKR more and like I said, if Adrea is still set on the statement of his/her first post then there is 2 option left: drop it or reread it and try to understand the manga instead of stopping to some misunderstanding brought by being overly prude.

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#14
TOG25

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I just read most of this thread and this is my opinion.

1) The women in this manga basically are there to accentuate the "alphaness" of the main character kitano ken(KK). and what better way is there then to show that all the women (Yumin maybe the exception) wants to sleep with him?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in society's viewpoint it goes to show he is highly desirable.

2) There are certain scenarios that do really irk me, especially the incest bit. BUT that's what the author intended isn't it? A reaction from the fans and in this case it invoked disgust. This doesn't make it a bad manga, it just stirs you up like what the author wanted. This doesn't change how I treat females in real life and don't think anyone would too. Like a good movie, it doesn't always need to leave you feeling happy inside once you have watched it.

3) Sex sells. Not that it is needed in a manga (promoting tower of god here).

If I think of anything else I would add.

#15
Gecko

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A little bit late, but...

I don't quite understand. While I can't speak for the rest of Boichi's works, the main women in SKR actually seem to be the opposite of what you're implying. Yumin is the daughter of Yakuza who was strong-willed enough to follow her dream and join the police. She's practically a career woman. The main premise of the story was that KEN -- the useless nobody -- liked her enough to chase after her. He was impetuous and, even when he arrived, he was nothing but a nobody whereas Yumin had succeeded.

This is the first chapter. Very first chapter.

As far as the weapon instructor goes, I would actually say that her presence is an interesting contradiction in regards to the "typical" woman and that if you're just looking at her *aggressiveness* towards sex and labeling her a prostitute or a deviant, then your assessment seems a bit shallow. She's the weapon *instructor* for the team and has been a huge help to Ken not for her promiscuity, but for just how knowledgeable she is in regards to cutting people up. In fact, I would even say that her attraction towards Ken and her forcefulness in that regard was more a way to demonstrate Ken's faithfulness towards Yumin, not to show her as a deviant or prostitute.


If you were trying to make the point that the story -- in general -- is oversexualized, I *might* see where you are coming from, but your statement points directly to the characters as being "sex-craving maniacs(deviants?) or plain prostitutes" which simply is not the case.

#16
Neotempest

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Oooh I like this thread. Not because of the topic in general, but how the op takes "Yumin Special" and compares it to "Sun-rock Ken" as if they portray the same thing.
To the strong defense of SRK the Plot/story of SRK is placed in the underbelly of society, aka the crime organization. If one believes that such a topic can be put in seriously (mean that loosely) without drugs, sex, illegal weapons, and gambling than a "serious" comic is just not for you.

Though the main issue is the "sex-craved" women of SRK. Which there isn't many. Now i've started since the manga began and may be missing a few plot and characters but realize myself there there just not that many women portrayed in SRK. Sure there were the women of the Idol arc and the casino arc but the women were hardley sex crazed, just abused...which is completely different from what the op believes.

#17
nzrock

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Sun Ken Rock isn't a manga based on fanservice, the female character all have their own personality and if they offend you then so be it.
Sun Ken Rock Gaiden Yumin however is only for fanservice and humor but I guess the ECCHI and COMEDY tags weren't enought... If you want to see another side of Yumin, go read "I want to feed Yumin" and you'll understand.


You should had just said that in the first place...geesh.

#18
rebecca

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For I am a female myself, I think the way Boichi is portraying women is suppose to be hot and sexy and I think it is a fabulous work. So to say the least, that is the whole point of this manga because it is for MATURE audiences.

#19
wablezzz

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Sex Sells. Artists make low income. 1 + 1 = 2.

#20
Darkwings

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...ok, falling in the possibile troll trap myself but: why not saying the whole truth and noticing the same things about men in SKR?

Or did you miss out the fact that every single man in SKR is a body-builder / martial artis /sex craving beast?
Is Pickaxe perfectly fine in your opinion? Or is this just about women and when it comes to men everything is ok?

Every woman in SKR is supposed to be hot and sexy and/or asking for sex. There's also a lot of panty/boobs shot.
It could be insulting, well yes.

Every man in SKR is muscular, strong, being an idiot when no one is looking and/or a sex maniac. There's also lot of males striking poses and showing off their muscles, removing their clothes in combat for no reason other than looking cool.
It could be insulting, well yes.

Denying half of that is called being biased.

And it could be dumb/insulting/shallow...except that's intentionally exagerated.
Every character is lampshading every possibile stereotype and cliché involved to make fun of itself.

Boichi is making fun of every single character, even Ken 'the Man' is a perfect fool in normal situations.

I personally dislike the more ecchi-oriented works from Boichi (i.e: Space Chief Caisar) for the same reasons stated by the OP, but comparing them to SKR is nonsense.
I'd also prefer less panty shots in SKR, but also less 'male poses' shots at the same time.

There was an arc about prostitution, so of course it involved prostitutes.
Yumin was the victim of an attempted rape. The exact opposite of 'sex-craving' from her part.
The only really sex craving female main character is the tanned crazy weapon freak girl. And no one cares about her, if you didn't notice.

On the other hand Benito and Pickaxe are constantly talking about sex and bragging about their exploits and just being overall abrasive with their remarks.
So, a 'portrayal of men as sex-craving maniacs" ?

If you were actually reading the manga then you should notice the irony of it all.

Edited by Darkwings, 15 March 2012 - 10:08 PM.