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Who is the best leader in cage of eden


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#21
Thunder Wolf

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I'll concede that Nishikori is a leader. I didn't pay close enough attention to the expressions on his followers faces. As for your comment on totalitarian leaders, they have military support. while the people of the country might not agree, they have followers in the government and military.

However, Mami is a figurehead. Let me define what a figurehead is. "a leader in name only who has no real power."

The fact they've survived is thanks to her abilities.


The person who said that didn't know about her fake predictions. He's not a reliable source.

She is the deciding factor for not joining up with Sengoku's group with her premonition.


That image you cited was a fake prediction made by her manager.

In fact, her manager was visibly shocked when no one had a name with the letter "W" in it because it ruined her plans. She had to improvise by killing those two.

The manager even said, "It's not like you really have premonitions". That means that at least the entire time on the island, her "predictions" that came true were all things she was told to say by her manager. I know she really does have premonitions, but the predictions that she told her group were fake. She didn't even believe herself that she had premonitions until later. She even called them flukes.

This page nicely spells it out that Mami was never the real leader.


Mami's manager was pulling the strings on Mami, however Mami was still the leader of the group. If she simply didn't listen to Nakayama, then of course, Nakayama's commands wouldn't have happened. In the end, it all went down to Mami.


If she didn't listen to Nakayama, you honestly think people would listen to her? Her manager marketed her and had them believe. Mami didn't seem to want to be a leader to begin with. Without her manager, she would never had been in the position she's in. Also, as her manager came up with her predictions since she came to the island, the followers would begin to lose faith without the carefully crafted predictions. All the the managers predictions came true and were important.

"Nobody" in the group listened to her? You're clearly misunderstanding a HUGE thing. This wasn't her first real premonition. She's been having them since the very start of her being on the island, heck, even BEFORE she came on the island. Her prediction on meeting Sengoku's group, was correct, no?


Refer back to what I said about her calling her predictions flukes. Also, how do we know the Sengoku's group prediction wasn't fake? Mami's manager made it very clear that all the official predictions on the island were only ones Mami was told to say. That means every single one of her predictions on the island that we didn't actually see in either a flashback or by seeing her experience the prediction, is questionable and possibly fake.

Mami was weak-willed, but that stopped her from being a leader how? She's the one leader that was weak-willed, but the system in her group was pretty clear. Unfortuantely she didn't put the best use to it thanks to her personality, but that doesn't make her in any way not a leader. And so, she almost got raped by her members who were clearly in a massive panic/frenzy. Sengoku has had that happen to him much more.


You took my quote out of context. When I said, "How is that in any way a leader?" I was talking about ALL the points I made. Remember, that was a paragraph. I basically listed a few things, which I will make clearer.
1. Mami was a figurehead.
2.Her real predictions were ignored by her manager.
3.Mami was too weak willed to resist, so she just got pushed around and almost raped by others. Nodoby respected her or actually listened to her.

I'm not saying her almost being raped in a time of panic is a factor of her being a leader or not. I'm saying that obviously, no one actually respected her. They were following for her power, not for her.

Mami was weak-willed, but that stopped her from being a leader how?


Here's exactly how. You keep mentioning "If only Mami did ___". Well, she didn't. I could say that Oomori is a leader because she's an adult and if only she would act more like one and took charge, she'd be the leader of Sengoku's group. But she isn't the leader, and she hasn't taken charge. It's easy to say "what if", but the reality is, Mami never actually lead her group. It was all her manager. Even if she could have lead the group, she didn't.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, I don't mean to be rude, but we seem to have a lot of misunderstanding between each other. Maybe we just have conflicting forms of communication?

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#22
Pax Empyrean

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Mami was a pawn. She never made decisions for others, or even for herself. She was a figurehead, which is not the same as a leader. A leader has to make decisions on behalf of others at some point. Mami never did. She had some true premonitions that she never told anybody else, and made a bunch of false ones as demanded by her manager.

If Mami started making decisions on behalf of the group, giving orders or telling her group about her premonitions then she could have been the leader pretty easily, but she never did that. She was basically just a sock puppet in human form.

#23
Senjosama

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[quote]I'll concede that Nishikori is a leader. I didn't pay close enough attention to the expressions on his followers faces.[/quote]

Even without their expressions, it still fits the definition of a leader.

[quote]As for your comment on totalitarian leaders, they have military support. while the people of the country might not agree, they have followers in the government and military.[/quote]

Yes and Nishikiori has a disease as support.

[quote]However, Mami is a figurehead. Let me define what a figurehead is. "a leader in name only who has no real power."[/quote]

Thank you for just stating she is a leader. You are completely mislead by the fact that you're using a different word, yes, a figurehead is a leader with no real power, but that doesn't change the fact they're a leader. A figurehead is a leader, whether or not they're relying on their friends abilities or not.

[quote]The person who said that didn't know about her fake predictions. He's not a reliable source.[/quote]

What fake predictions? The only ones we actually know of are the two done on Sengoku's group and it's implied the one on the lake wasn't real. She could have said real premonitions which is actually quite evident as she predicted they would meet Sengoku's group.

[quote]That image you cited was a fake prediction made by her manager.[/quote]

Proof?

[quote]In fact, her manager was visibly shocked when no one had a name with the letter "W" in it because it ruined her plans. She had to improvise by killing those two.[/quote]

How were her plans ruined? That's a huge assumption. It's quite clear she was acting the entire time, as was the wrestler on not knowing anything. You have no proof at all her plans were ruined and given that she had to act like she knew nothing at all from the get-go is pretty blatant.

[quote]The manager even said, "It's not like you really have premonitions". That means that at least the entire time on the island, her "predictions" that came true were all things she was told to say by her manager.[/quote]

That changes anything? One person mistrusting her premonitions doesn't change anything. I guess Sengoku isn't a leader because Hikime didn't trust him and Suzuki doesn't support him. It's quite clear Nakayama is a realistic character, as in, she tries to benefit herself through the use of others. She was indeed using Mami. Of course, she doesn't believe her, but that means very little. In fact, she has very well created many real predictions in front of her manager in case you haven't realized. The only reason she even knew of Mami was from her own prediction. This isn't just once, but numerous times. "Whenever I said what popped into my head... I was correct." If you didn't notice, Nakayama is in the background clearly seeing her get things right. It's her own stubborness for not believing Mami's predictions as she has proved she has had true predictions in front of her.

[quote]I know she really does have premonitions, but the predictions that she told her group were fake. She didn't even believe herself that she had premonitions until later. She even called them flukes.[/quote]

Yes, they were flukes because she got them right and didn't expect them to. That was quite evident, since even her mother had held the same ability. I don't even know if you reread Mami's arc at all, considering her whole character revolves around her doubting herself because of other people.

[quote]This page nicely spells it out that Mami was never the real leader.[/quote]

Yes, that page makes it quite clear that Mami can tell premonitions to any other group whether it's under Nakayama's influence or not proving she has the power in the group.

[quote]If she didn't listen to Nakayama, you honestly think people would listen to her? Her manager marketed her and had them believe.[/quote]

What an invalid argument. So what if it's thanks to someone else she was put into a leader position? You also just admitted everyone listened to her, which is clearly quite contradicting when you're trying to say that she isn't the leader.

[quote]Mami didn't seem to want to be a leader to begin with.[/quote]

Again, doesn't change anything. Not wanting to and being something are completely different. She doesn't want to, but she was. Simple.

[quote]Without her manager, she would never had been in the position she's in.[/quote]

Without voters, Obama wouldn't be president. Does that mean we shouldn't call him president? It's pretty simple. Without her manager, Mami wouldn't have been made leader. But thanks to her manager, she is the leader.

[quote]Also, as her manager came up with her predictions since she came to the island, the followers would begin to lose faith without the carefully crafted predictions. All the the managers predictions came true and were important.[/quote]

Except Mami has had her premonitions since childhood. It's pretty simple. The people didn't believe Mami's abilities, so she wasn't leader. They all died, despite Mami telling them about the dangers ahead and they died not listening to her. The remaining people believed her and she was made the leader. Whether or not it was one of Nakayama's lies, she is the leader.

[quote]Refer back to what I said about her calling her predictions flukes. Also, how do we know the Sengoku's group prediction wasn't fake? Mami's manager made it very clear that all the official predictions on the island were only ones Mami was told to say. That means every single one of her predictions on the island that we didn't actually see in either a flashback or by seeing her experience the prediction, is questionable and possibly fake.[/quote]

In other words, you're grasping at the fact that her manager made two fake premonitions to Sengoku's group and you're falsely stating that it was the entire case with the island? Wrong. She had premonitions since her childhood and had numerous of them during her time in fame getting all interviews correct and making her way onto numerous headlines and newspapers. Unless you're going to say that her manager told her what to say when it was quite clear this was not the case.

[quote]You took my quote out of context. When I said, "How is that in any way a leader?" I was talking about ALL the points I made. Remember, that was a paragraph. I basically listed a few things, which I will make clearer.[/quote]

That's not my problem.

[quote]1. Mami was a figurehead.
2.Her real predictions were ignored by her manager.
3.Mami was too weak willed to resist, so she just got pushed around and almost raped by others. Nodoby respected her or actually listened to her.[/quote]

Basically...
1. Mami is a leader, with no power. <-- Wrong. Her premonitions held power and she could make them up, she held the group together, she is clearly the leader.
2. Her real predictions were ignored by her manager <-- Assumption. The prediction of her manager's death was ignored, this doesn't mean all her predictions were ignored. You're saying "once" as "every" which is quite silly.
3. A joke <-- Mami was too weak-willed to reject her manager's orders, yes. That doesn't make her not a leader. Basically, she got almost raped, yet you proceed to say nobody respected her? What a joke. If you even looked at the scene, Ikeda quite well respected her and wanted to see how much she developed as a woman. There's a reason Ikeda, Shouji and Uchimura all followed her predictions. It's because they respected her.

Whew, sorry for the triple post, but Batoto wouldn't let me post without splitting it. It'd be much appreciated if a mod/admin could merge them. Apparently the quotes start/end didn't match, but they clearly did having triple checked it, got Microsoft word to check and checked it myself. :(

[quote]I'm not saying her almost being raped in a time of panic is a factor of her being a leader or not. I'm saying that obviously, no one actually respected her. They were following for her power, not for her.[/quote]

Proof? You're taking a spur of the moment thing into how they feel about her. Which is clearly wrong. Do you even know why he attempted to rape her? Because he was under the impression that he was definitely going to die after being abandoned. It had nothing to do with Mami or not.

[quote]Here's exactly how. You keep mentioning "If only Mami did ___". Well, she didn't.[/quote]

And here's pretty much the winning sentence. For me. The fact that you just now admit that Mami could've done something means you admit she had the power to do so. Just because she didn't doesn't make her any less of a leader. Yes, she didn't do it. So? That doesn't mean she couldn't have done it. Sure, her personality held her back from doing it, but that doesn't change the fact she was the leader of the group and had the ability to do whatever she wanted.

[quote]I could say that Oomori is a leader because she's an adult and if only she would act more like one and took charge, she'd be the leader of Sengoku's group.[/quote]

Except the difference is Mami is officially recognized as the leader of the group, unlike Oomori.

[quote]But she isn't the leader, and she hasn't taken charge. It's easy to say "what if", but the reality is, Mami never actually lead her group. It was all her manager. Even if she could have lead the group, she didn't.[/quote]

Proof? Mami did lead her group. What was Mami doing? Listening to Nakayama on what to do. What does Sengoku do? Listen to Mariya on what to do. It's pretty evident that you're just arguing that "Nakayama is the leader" which is exactly the same as arguing that "Mariya is the leader" over Sengoku. Nakayama was the advisor, Mami was the leader. Simple. Fact.

[quote]Mami was a pawn.[/quote]

She was a pawn, yet she was a leader.

[quote]She never made decisions for others, or even for herself.[/quote]

Erm, I guess bathing and warning Nakayama weren't considered her own descisions?

[quote]She was a figurehead, which is not the same as a leader.[/quote]

A figurehead is a different type of leader. I fail to see how you both can admit she's a figurehead when figurehead is very well a leader (with no power) which is actually incorrect as she held the power in the group.

[quote]A leader has to make decisions on behalf of others at some point. Mami never did. She had some true premonitions that she never told anybody else, and made a bunch of false ones as demanded by her manager.[/quote]

Um, no. Don't mix up your ideal definiton of a leader to the real one. A leader is someone who is followed by others - in other words, leads or commands a group which is clearly Mami.

[quote]If Mami started making decisions on behalf of the group, giving orders or telling her group about her premonitions then she could have been the leader pretty easily, but she never did that.[/quote]

Um, Mami did start making descisions. Her descision was to listen to Nakayama. Yes, Nakayama could be argued to be the leader, but that doesn't change the fact she holds absolutely no power. People listened to Mami, no ther. Meaning, Mami was the leader. It's pretty simple. She did tell the group about her premonitions, you clearly need to reread the arc.

[quote]She was basically just a sock puppet in human form.[/quote]

That changes her from being a leader how? It doesn't.

Both of you are quite clearly grasping at the fact she was being controled by Nakayama to say she isn't a leader which is completely wrong. It was on her own accord to listen to her Manager and the rest you guys are just saying is huge assumptions (ie. Mami never had a real premonition upon hitting the island). Mami was the recognized leader by the group. Nakayama did tell her what to do a few times, however Mariya tells Sengoku what to do just as much if not more times throughout the series. Does that mean Mariya is the leader for making the descisions? No. Sengoku acknowledges what Mariya is saying and leads the group to do such. Mami is acknowleding what Nakayama is saying and leading the group to do such.

I'll say it again:
  • The person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country.
  • A person followed by others.
Who leads the group? Mami.
Who are the people following? Mami.

#24
Thunder Wolf

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Wow. Triple post? Either way,

Yes and Nishikiori has a disease as support. Disease isn't a person. It doesn't count.

Thank you for just stating she is a leader. You are completely mislead by the fact that you're using a different word, yes, a figurehead is a leader with no real power, but that doesn't change the fact they're a leader. A figurehead is a leader, whether or not they're relying on their friends abilities or not. You ignored the part of IN NAME ONLY. That means she is CALLEDa leader, but actually isn't.

Proof? It was the prediction about the bloody "W". Are you telling me that was a real prediction?


How were her plans ruined? That's a huge assumption. It's quite clear she was acting the entire time, as was the wrestler on not knowing anything. You have no proof at all her plans were ruined and given that she had to act like she knew nothing at all from the get-go is pretty blatant. She made the prediction up! She has been manipulating the whole group using false predictions. When one seemed to not end up true, she was upset!

In other words, you're grasping at the fact that her manager made two fake premonitions to Sengoku's group and you're falsely stating that it was the entire case with the island? Wrong. She had premonitions since her childhood and had numerous of them during her time in fame getting all interviews correct and making her way onto numerous headlines and newspapers. Unless you're going to say that her manager told her what to say when it was quite clear this was not the case. I'm talking about how the manager said, "You just have to do what I say, Just as you've been doing until now". Mami had real predictions, but ON THE ISLAND, she's been following what her manager has said.

That's not my problem. But it IS your problem. If you're going to debate, you should try and make sure you don't misquote or misrepresent someone!

Basically...
1. Mami is a leader, with no power. <-- Wrong. ..... Fail logic that I'm not even going to try and argue it's so strange.
2. Her real predictions were ignored by her manager <-- Assumption. The prediction of her manager's death was ignored, this doesn't mean all her predictions were ignored. You're saying "once" as "every" which is quite silly. HER MANAGER DIDN'T BELIEVE SHE COULD REALLY SEE THE FUTURE. She said, as I'll quote, AGAIN, "It's not like you really have premonitions"!!!
3. A joke <-- Mami was too weak-willed to reject her manager's orders, yes. That doesn't make her not a leader. Basically, she got almost raped, yet you proceed to say nobody respected her? What a joke. If you even looked at the scene, Ikeda quite well respected her and wanted to see how much she developed as a woman. There's a reason Ikeda, Shouji and Uchimura all followed her predictions. It's because they respected her. Once again, fail logic. You don't have to respect someone to follow them. You call me out for assumptions, when you make these sort of ridiculous ones.

And here's pretty much the winning sentence. For me. The fact that you just now admit that Mami could've done something means you admit she had the power to do so. Just because she didn't doesn't make her any less of a leader. Yes, she didn't do it. So? That doesn't mean she couldn't have done it. Sure, her personality held her back from doing it, but that doesn't change the fact she was the leader of the group and had the ability to do whatever she wanted. This made me lol. so you're basically saying, "Just because she didn't lead, that doesn't make her any less of a leader." It doesn't matter what someone COULD do, all that matters is what they DID do. You deconstructed your own argument.

Proof? Mami did lead her group. What was Mami doing? Listening to Nakayama on what to do. What does Sengoku do? Listen to Mariya on what to do. It's pretty evident that you're just arguing that "Nakayama is the leader" which is exactly the same as arguing that "Mariya is the leader" over Sengoku. Nakayama was the advisor, Mami was the leader. Simple. Fact. Except Sengoku makes the final decisions, and Mami just follows her managers orders.

Erm, I guess bathing and warning Nakayama weren't considered her own descisions? Strawman Argument. A form of debate you seem to love.

figurehead is a different type of leader. I fail to see how you both can admit she's a figurehead when figurehead is very well a leader (with no power) Once again, if you call someone a leader, but then someone else gives the orders and handles all the responsibilities, and even orders the "leader" around, they are not a leader. If you call a sheep a bear, it does not make it true.

Um, no. Don't mix up your ideal definiton of a leader to the real one. A leader is someone who is followed by others - in other words, leads or commands a group which is clearly Mami. Your argument doesn't make sense here. I said, "A leader has to make decisions on behalf of others at some point" You AGREED with me. "- in other words, leads or commands a group"

Um, Mami did start making descisions. Her descision was to listen to Nakayama. Yes, Nakayama could be argued to be the leader, but that doesn't change the fact she holds absolutely no power. People listened to Mami, no ther. Meaning, Mami was the leader. It's pretty simple. She did tell the group about her premonitions, you clearly need to reread the arc. I've cited my pages and they were relevant. You pages did not support to your actual argument. I'm not sure if you're trolling, or just like to contradict yourself, but your logic isn't adding up. I will once again say, just because people listened to Mami's predictions, does not mean she lead anyone. Especially when the manager told her what to say.

That changes her from being a leader how? It doesn't. Please reevaluate what makes a leader a leader.

Both of you are quite clearly grasping at the fact she was being controled by Nakayama to say she isn't a leader which is completely wrong. It was on her own accord to listen to her Manager and the rest you guys are just saying is huge assumptions (ie. Mami never had a real premonition upon hitting the island). Mami was the recognized leader by the group. Nakayama did tell her what to do a few times, however Mariya tells Sengoku what to do just as much if not more times throughout the series. Does that mean Mariya is the leader for making the descisions? No. Sengoku acknowledges what Mariya is saying and leads the group to do such. Mami is acknowleding what Nakayama is saying and leading the group to do such. Just because she chose to listen to Nakayama, does not make her a leader. You CAN choose to be a follower or pawn. >_>. Also, Sengoku has lead even without Mariya and makes descisions regardless of what Mariya says. Sengoku has made decisions that Mariya hasn't agreed with before. Completely different issue.

Who leads the group? Mami. Nakayama told Mami what to say and do. Essentially, the person leading is Nakayama as she issued the orders.
Who are the people following? Mami. who has only been following orders from Nakayama.


If I didn't respond to something, it's because it's so sily I don't even want to try and argue because it's too contradictory or nonsensical. I really hope you're trolling. If not, please take a class on logic and reasoning. Most of your arguments are cyclical or strawman arguments. Please make sense.

Edited by Thunder Wolf, 14 January 2012 - 10:59 AM.

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#25
Pax Empyrean

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Yes and Nishikiori has a disease as support.


So he leads a disease? What. Dictators have support from the military, meaning they have followers there. You can't count a disease as a follower.

A figurehead is a leader, whether or not they're relying on their friends abilities or not.


That's nonsense. A figurehead is a glorified mascot. If some lunatic spoke to the people through a literal sock puppet and said that it was really in charge, is the sock puppet the leader, or is the person controlling it the leader? Mami was a puppet. She didn't do anything of her own volition. Lets take another example; televangelists. They claim that God tells them what to do and say, and their congregations believe this. Suppose this is just a scam; is God the leader in that situation just because the guy who's running everything says so and the followers believe it?

What fake predictions? The only ones we actually know of are the two done on Sengoku's group and it's implied the one on the lake wasn't real. She could have said real premonitions which is actually quite evident as she predicted they would meet Sengoku's group.


And yet she never told anybody. How are you still missing that? Her manager was clearly the source of all of her "predictions" that anybody else heard about; the manager said so herself that Mami didn't make any of them. Mami had other premonitions that turned out to be true, but kept them all to herself.

That changes anything? One person mistrusting her premonitions doesn't change anything.


The mistrust of one person isn't what makes this significant. The fact that the manager claims to be the source of all of Mami's premonitions tells us that Mami never told anybody else about her actual premonitions.

Yes, that page makes it quite clear that Mami can tell premonitions to any other group whether it's under Nakayama's influence or not proving she has the power in the group.


No, it proves that she could have power, if she ever tried to exercise it. She doesn't, and just plays the role of passive sock puppet for her manager.

What an invalid argument. So what if it's thanks to someone else she was put into a leader position? You also just admitted everyone listened to her, which is clearly quite contradicting when you're trying to say that she isn't the leader.


They're listening to the words the manager puts in her mouth. Sock puppet.

Again, doesn't change anything. Not wanting to and being something are completely different. She doesn't want to, but she was. Simple.


She didn't want to, and so she never did anything that a leader would do. No decision making, no establishing rules or standards of behavior, nothing. Not doing any of the things that leaders do means they aren't a leader. It doesn't matter if people think they are making the decisions. Again, it's like all those televangelists who claim God is telling them what to do and their followers believe it. Just because everybody in their group claims that God is their leader doesn't mean it's true. It's just a claim they make that makes it easier to get their followers to do what the actual leader wants them to do, which is exactly what the manager was doing.

Unless you're going to say that her manager told her what to say when it was quite clear this was not the case.


We're told that that's exactly what happened. "It's not like you really have premonitions."

Proof? You're taking a spur of the moment thing into how they feel about her. Which is clearly wrong. Do you even know why he attempted to rape her? Because he was under the impression that he was definitely going to die after being abandoned. It had nothing to do with Mami or not.


If you don't think that respecting someone and trying to rape them are mutually exclusive, you're seriously fucked up.

There's more, but the forum tells me that the number of quote tags and quote closing tags doesn't match if I go beyond this, even though I've used notepad++ to count instances of each tag. Crappy forum software, I guess.

Edited by Pax Empyrean, 14 January 2012 - 11:47 AM.


#26
Thunder Wolf

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There's more, but the forum tells me that the number of quote tags and quote closing tags doesn't match if I go beyond this, even though I've used notepad++ to count instances of each tag. Crappy forum software, I guess.


Just copy+paste the text you wish to quote into one large quote like I did. It makes it easier. I just made what I said in response highlighted in blue and in bold. I think it also saves space.

Edited by Thunder Wolf, 14 January 2012 - 11:59 AM.

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#27
Senjosama

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Good job ThunderWolf! Doing a bit quote making it extremely difficult to quote your post. Props to you. Not to mention, it's quite evident by the length of both of your replies that you're really not trying and/or are in the wrong which is evident anyway. I would be nice, but it's quite clear that Thunder Wolf is either really young or just an angry person, so I won't bother.

Disease isn't a person. It doesn't count.
Um, yes it does. He monopolized a way of controlling his subordinates. It doesn't have to be a person, you're clearly ignoring what the real definition is.

You ignored the part of IN NAME ONLY. That means she is CALLEDa leader, but actually isn't.
What a joke.
I'll say it again:

  • The person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country.
  • A person followed by others.
Who leads the group? Mami.
Who are the people following? Mami
She's called the leader, she in fact in definition is the leader.

It was the prediction about the bloody "W". Are you telling me that was a real prediction?
So, one, as well as the other fake prediction means EVERY prediction was fake? Wrong. Those were the only two known predictions and she's had a lot more correct predictions over "fake" ones.

She made the prediction up! She has been manipulating the whole group using false predictions. When one seemed to not end up true, she was upset!
She used two fake predictions to try and monopolize Sengoku's group with them. Again, you're highly assuming things. It's quite clear even when she was with her other group members she was putting on a facade. She was lying then, she was lying now. She wasn't upset at all. If she wanted to have someone match her list, she could have easily used "e" or "a" instead of "w". It's quite evident in all common sense, that she had planned the "w" from the start. Unless you're seriously suggesting she didn't plan out a murder despite her character being a realistic, intellectual and person who holds pride in herself?

I'm talking about how the manager said, "You just have to do what I say, Just as you've been doing until now". Mami had real predictions, but ON THE ISLAND, she's been following what her manager has said.
On the island, she had real predictions too. This is evident that she guessed Sengoku's group was ahead and also the swamp which is unknown whether it was fake or not. She has been following what the Manager says, but again, that doesn't change her from being a leader at all.

But it IS your problem. If you're going to debate, you should try and make sure you don't misquote or misrepresent someone!
And if you're going to debate, actually raise a good point instead of making it a one-sided slaughter house where you abandon all logic and common sense.

Fail logic that I'm not even going to try and argue it's so strange.
You're seriously a joke. How did Mami not hold the power in her group? She did. This is a fact. Everyone in the group acknowledges this fact, too. There's are a reason Nakayama used Mami over herself, no?

HER MANAGER DIDN'T BELIEVE SHE COULD REALLY SEE THE FUTURE. She said, as I'll quote, AGAIN, "It's not like you really have premonitions"!!!
Again, what a joke. She didn't believe Mami could really do predictions, but this doesn't mean she didn't follow her lead. In fact, it's quite evident she did follow her lead as she was the one who let Mami do the interviews and again, lead them to Sengoku's group before pulling the strings in an attempt to monopolize the whole group.

Once again, fail logic. You don't have to respect someone to follow them. You call me out for assumptions, when you make these sort of ridiculous ones.
All I can see fail logic is yours. Your reply was also quite off-topic, so I'll repeat.
Mami was too weak-willed to reject her manager's orders, yes. That doesn't make her not a leader. Basically, she got almost raped, yet you proceed to say nobody respected her? What a joke. If you even looked at the scene, Ikeda quite well respected her and wanted to see how much she developed as a woman. There's a reason Ikeda, Shouji and Uchimura all followed her predictions. It's because they respected her.

This made me lol. so you're basically saying, "Just because she didn't lead, that doesn't make her any less of a leader." It doesn't matter what someone COULD do, all that matters is what they DID do. You deconstructed your own argument.
If that made you "lol", you have a terrible sense of humour. Also again, stretching words and making baseless assumptions. This isnt' even a debate, you're just being a child who's saying "no, this can't be true" with no argument against such. Sorry, but I actually don't have much spare time, so if you're not going to actually counter an argument, then please leave.

Except Sengoku makes the final decisions, and Mami just follows her managers orders.
You're kidding, right? Sengoku did make the final descision to go to the mountain. Mami made the final descision to follow Nakayama's orders. Fact. Thanks for helping my case.

Once again, if you call someone a leader, but then someone else gives the orders and handles all the responsibilities, and even orders the "leader" around, they are not a leader. If you call a sheep a bear, it does not make it true.
Um, you clearly don't know the definition of a leader, despite me posting it more than once. Don't bring your idealistic views into this. Mami gives the orders. Fact. Mami listens to her manager, fact. Mami decides to lead the group following Nakayama's advice, fact. It's relatively simple, Mami is the one giving the orders in the end, whether or not she is following someone else. She is the leader. You're pretty much agreeing with me, but then be like: "but it's not possible for Mami to be the leader, cause she's listening to someone else."

Your argument doesn't make sense here. I said, "A leader has to make decisions on behalf of others at some point" You AGREED with me. "- in other words, leads or commands a group"
Um, how doesn't it make sense? You may need a re-education, but if you seriously need it, I'll summarize it. A leader commands and/or leads a group, which is clearly what Mami is doing.

I've cited my pages and they were relevant. You pages did not support to your actual argument. I'm not sure if you're trolling, or just like to contradict yourself, but your logic isn't adding up. I will once again say, just because people listened to Mami's predictions, does not mean she lead anyone. Especially when the manager told her what to say.
I dont' contradict myself. Please don't say such absurd things. My logic adds up, in fact, you're pretty much disagreeing to disagree. "LolNishikiori can't be a leader, lets ignore the manga completely". Why do you do this? I'm doubtful, but I think you may have better things to do than say the opposite of what the manga states.

Please reevaluate what makes a leader a leader.
A leader is someone who commands/leads the group. What Mami does. Even if listening to what someone else is saying, she made the descision to follow through with that, so she is obviously the leader.

Just because she chose to listen to Nakayama, does not make her a leader. You CAN choose to be a follower or pawn. >_>. Also, Sengoku has lead even without Mariya and makes descisions regardless of what Mariya says. Sengoku has made decisions that Mariya hasn't agreed with before. Completely different issue.
Not a different issue at all. You're very simple-minded with your posts. The fact that she is recognized and follows through as the leader, being the one to make the final descision and following through as such makes her a leader. Sengoku done the same thing with Mariya's advice.

Nakayama told Mami what to say and do. Essentially, the person leading is Nakayama as she issued the orders.
Wtf? Do you know what a leader is? Nakayama wasn't commanding the group, Mami was. Get that through your titanium skull.

who has only been following orders from Nakayama.
Okay, so I guess Obama's advisor is the real President of America? I guess Zenkichi is the leader of the Student Council as he advices Medaka. What Nakayama is doing is advising Mami the best course of action in her own benefit which Mami decided to go along with.

So he leads a disease? What. Dictators have support from the military, meaning they have followers there. You can't count a disease as a follower.
Mhm.
Dictator: A ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained power by force.
Whether or not it is through military power or monopolizing a disease, Nishikiori done it effectively and took control of the group. So incorrect, why did you even argue that point? Thunder_Wolf pretty much conceeded his Nishikiori argument realizing how wrong he was.

That's nonsense. A figurehead is a glorified mascot. If some lunatic spoke to the people through a literal sock puppet and said that it was really in charge, is the sock puppet the leader, or is the person controlling it the leader? Mami was a puppet. She didn't do anything of her own volition. Lets take another example; televangelists. They claim that God tells them what to do and say, and their congregations believe this. Suppose this is just a scam; is God the leader in that situation just because the guy who's running everything says so and the followers believe it?
Awkward moment when Mami isn't a figurehead. How is she a figurehead at all? Hm? Seriously, get it through your head. She held the power in the group, she was the one the people listened to. She was the leader. You're a joke for calling her a puppet. Both of you are saying the most absurd things in the world. She listened to Nakayama and followed her advice, that doesn't mean she isn't a leader. She held the power, she isn't the leader "in name only" considering she was officially recognized as the leader.

And yet she never told anybody. How are you still missing that? Her manager was clearly the source of all of her "predictions" that anybody else heard about; the manager said so herself that Mami didn't make any of them. Mami had other premonitions that turned out to be true, but kept them all to herself.
How are you still missing the fact you are unable to recognize the definition of a leader? The world will never know. Her manager wasn't the source of "all her predictions". Even Thunder_Wolf recognizes this (he's saying she's the source of all the island predictions), so stop contradcting him first of all. She has had her premonition abilities since birth. How do you know the groups history? You don't. Only one event in the group was actually explained thoroughly, don't assume.

The mistrust of one person isn't what makes this significant. The fact that the manager claims to be the source of all of Mami's premonitions tells us that Mami never told anybody else about her actual premonitions.
No, she didn't. That's absurd. Not only that, it also changes very little on Mami's position as a leader. You're clearly side-tracking off the main fact and definition of a leader.

No, it proves that she could have power, if she ever tried to exercise it. She doesn't, and just plays the role of passive sock puppet for her manager.
Wtf? No, it proves she DOES have power. What do you mean she could? If she can do something, she obviously has the power to do such and it's recognized she's a leader.

They're listening to the words the manager puts in her mouth. Sock puppet.
She was a sock puppet when Nakayama wanted her ways. That doesn't change the fact she's a leader. I fail to see how she can't be both. She was still leading the group.

She didn't want to, and so she never did anything that a leader would do. No decision making, no establishing rules or standards of behavior, nothing. Not doing any of the things that leaders do means they aren't a leader. It doesn't matter if people think they are making the decisions. Again, it's like all those televangelists who claim God is telling them what to do and their followers believe it. Just because everybody in their group claims that God is their leader doesn't mean it's true. It's just a claim they make that makes it easier to get their followers to do what the actual leader wants them to do, which is exactly what the manager was doing.
Again, you're bringing your ideal leader into this. Not doing actions that a leader would do doesn't make you a leader. She did do descision making, this is pretty much concreted into the argument. She decided she wanted to listen to Nakayama, she decided to help Sengoku's group, she decided to talk to him, she decided to warn her boss and she decided to wait for Uchimura and wrestler dude as they were scouting. Mami doesn't "think" she's making descisions, she "knows" she's making descisions and we see her make descisions to follow through. So I fail to see how your ideal leader stops her from being a leader.

We're told that that's exactly what happened. "It's not like you really have premonitions."
Um, are you stupid? That's exactly not what happened. Before she hit on the island, Mami made it quite clear she was running the show. She even stated herself that she was the one talking in interviews about what popped up in HER head. Not the manager's. In other words, wrong, wrong and again, wrong.

If you don't think that respecting someone and trying to rape them are mutually exclusive, you're seriously fucked up.
Grow up, get rid of your silly assumptions. They were in a panic in assumption they were definitely going to die after being abandoned. Of course Ikeda and Shouji respected her, this was quite evident on how protective they were of her and pushing around Sengoku because he got close to her. Please reread the arc. It's quite annoying that you sprout off such things.

There's more, but the forum tells me that the number of quote tags and quote closing tags doesn't match if I go beyond this, even though I've used notepad++ to count instances of each tag. Crappy forum software, I guess.
Pretty much solidifies the fact that I'm wasting my time as you aren't reading my post. I said that in my post and Thunder_Wolf also was like "eh? triple post?" when I clearly said in my post I had to break it up to do this.


Seriously, this is absurd. Neither of you can distinguish your own "ideal" leader between what an actual leader is. There's a reason why a majority of the community consider Mami as the leader and not Nakayama. I'm apart of almost every CoE discusison thread and have known a lot more people who've read CoE much more accurately than both of you. They'll summarize it for you:

Rosalie says:
idd
she was a leader
she wasn't a very good one
but she was one

Kyle says:
who is this idiot?
ignore them
Mami was the leader, she just went through with that girls decisions, but she decided herself to do so
she was still leading the group, obviously

Rose says:
Aww in another debate?
They're trolling you ignore them
William says:
Err, I don't ignore debates. Especially not ones I'm winning.
Now who's the leader?
Rose says:
Well Mami was the one making the shots in the end so I guess her


None of them want to participate in the argument because of the nonsencial swearing, idealistic thoughts and biased views, but if you want to contact them, just ring. They're on Mangafox and other places anyway. They put it nicely, Mami wasn't a good leader, she listened to someone else, but in the end, she was still the one who made the descisions so she was the leader.

#28
Pax Empyrean

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Wow, if you found some people somewhere else on the Internet who agree with you, you must be right! Never mind that the Internet provides people who agree with literally any position you can think of.

I'm not saying that someone has to be my "ideal" leader in order to be a leader. They just have to do something in the role of a leader to count as a leader. They have to actually lead at some point, not just serve as somebody else's mouthpiece. I said that Mami never made any decisions as a leader and you come up with examples of her trying to do things on her own or deciding to follow her manager. Those are not decisions for the group or anyone else except for Mami.

I used the example of televangelists to point out that the actual position of leadership is distinct from being acknowledged as the leader, but you went off about how I supposedly think someone has to be an "ideal" leader to count. The nominal leader in that case is God, acknowledged by the televangelist and his followers, but God has nothing to do with any of the goings on taking place. The actual leader is the televangelist. By your response you seem to think I was saying that the televangelist isn't the leader because he isn't an "ideal" leader. I can only conclude that you are stupid.

Lets try again for you since you're stupid; suppose that it is discovered that the president is a mindless robot, controlled by somebody else. None of the things he's told us are his own decision, and he's just been somebody else's mouthpiece this whole time. Is he still the leader? You would say yes because people listened to what he said and called him the leader. I would say no because the thing that people are calling the "leader" hasn't actually been making any of the decisions for the country.

The leader is the person who makes the decisions, not the person who reads the press release or puts a pretty face on the message.

#29
Thunder Wolf

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None of them want to participate in the argument because of the nonsencial swearing, idealistic thoughts and biased views, but if you want to contact them, just ring. They're on Mangafox and other places anyway. They put it nicely, Mami wasn't a good leader, she listened to someone else, but in the end, she was still the one who made the descisions so she was the leader.

Nice job quoting someone on MangaFox (that I don't even know if they exist), and telling me to go to a website owned by NOEZ. Bravo, I applaud your trolling expertise!
Oh, and I did look them up. Rosalie is a common username. But I did find a simple rosalie, but she's never posted anything. The other people have similar circumstances, or won't appear in the member search. Maybe you should actually make a decent argument instead of making someone up. But I guess you can't do that because Chuck Norris himself told you not to. >_>

Unless you're seriously suggesting she didn't plan out a murder despite her character being a realistic, intellectual and person who holds pride in herself?

I'm saying she expected someone in the group to have the initial "W" in their name. She just planned on killing someone with a "W" in their name, then changed her plans. Obviously.

And if you're going to debate, actually raise a good point instead of making it a one-sided slaughter house where you abandon all logic and common sense.

I was saying you shouldn't take a quote out of context just to further your own argument, which you did. How is it not your problem when you obviously misrepresented what I said? I guess when I bring that to your attention, it makes sense to you to then go off topic. You keep avoiding that fact.

You're seriously a joke. How did Mami not hold the power in her group? She did. This is a fact. Everyone in the group acknowledges this fact, too. There's are a reason Nakayama used Mami over herself, no?

She was using her fame. Which is a rather easy tactic to guarantee a group will follow you.

How are you still missing the fact you are unable to recognize the definition of a leader? The world will never know. Her manager wasn't the source of "all her predictions". Even Thunder_Wolf recognizes this (he's saying she's the source of all the island predictions), so stop contradcting him first of all. She has had her premonition abilities since birth. How do you know the groups history? You don't. Only one event in the group was actually explained thoroughly, don't assume.

What are you talking about? Why should he stop contradicting me? Either way, you took his quote out of context. You completely ignored it. Let me bold the parts you ignored. "Her manager was clearly the source of all of her "predictions" that anybody else heard about; the manager said so herself that Mami didn't make any of them. Mami had other premonitions that turned out to be true, but kept them all to herself." He's obviously referring to her time on the island, not when she was in Japan.

Pax: "The mistrust of one person isn't what makes this significant. The fact that the manager claims to be the source of all of Mami's premonitions tells us that Mami never told anybody else about her actual premonitions."
No, she didn't. That's absurd. Not only that, it also changes very little on Mami's position as a leader. You're clearly side-tracking off the main fact and definition of a leader.

Let me highlight what important here. "Mami never told anybody else about her actual premonitions." "No, she didn't. That's absurd." Unless you meant, "Yes she did", you're agreeing with him. It's hard trying to reason with you when you're agreeing and disagreeing with us at the same time.

Wtf? No, it proves she DOES have power. What do you mean she could? If she can do something, she obviously has the power to do such and it's recognized she's a leader.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean anything. Let's use Sengoku for example. He could have killed a friend of his. He's had the chances. That doesn't mean he did or that he's a murderer. Maya has the power to beat Sengoku up and force him to obey her. Does that make her a leader? Power does not equate to leadership. You can have all the power in the world, but if you take orders from someone else, you're not the leader, they are.

Again, you're bringing your ideal leader into this. Not doing actions that a leader would do doesn't make you a leader. She did do descision making, this is pretty much concreted into the argument. She decided she wanted to listen to Nakayama, she decided to help Sengoku's group, she decided to talk to him, she decided to warn her boss and she decided to wait for Uchimura and wrestler dude as they were scouting. Mami doesn't "think" she's making descisions, she "knows" she's making descisions and we see her make descisions to follow through. So I fail to see how your ideal leader stops her from being a leader.

Let me highlight a few things here."Not doing actions that a leader would do doesn't make you a leader." You are exactly correct! Not being a leader does not make you a leader! Glad we're on the same page! The rest of the argument equates to, "She chose to go to the bathroom without asking! She's a leader!". It's not "making descisions" that makes you a leader. It's making them for other people.

Um, are you stupid? That's exactly not what happened. Before she hit on the island, Mami made it quite clear she was running the show. She even stated herself that she was the one talking in interviews about what popped up in HER head. Not the manager's. In other words, wrong, wrong and again, wrong.

Talking in an interview outside of the island makers her the leader? Also, did you know that ancient civilizations used Oracles? They didn't always follow what they said, but they still listened to them. Did that mean the leader of those groups was in fact, the oracle? No! The Oracle is just someone you listen to for advice on what to do. Mami is fulfilling that role to the letter.

Grow up, get rid of your silly assumptions. They were in a panic in assumption they were definitely going to die after being abandoned. Of course Ikeda and Shouji respected her, this was quite evident on how protective they were of her and pushing around Sengoku because he got close to her. Please reread the arc. It's quite annoying that you sprout off such things.

They valued her as an asset, not as a person. If she didn't have her predictions and was ugly, they'd ignore her. They were protective of her because they wanted to guard their sexy prediction machine. If you have a wallet, you would protect it from thieve's right? Do you respect your wallet as a friend, though?
I also showed this particular quote to a few people (irl) and they questioned your age. Seriously, how can you say rape is normal in a panic situation? Have you ever even been in one? I have, and I sure as hell didn't try and rape anyone.

EDIT: Damn, Pax! That was an amazing post! Mind if I use parts of it for a leadership event I attend?

Edited by Thunder Wolf, 14 January 2012 - 07:02 PM.

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#30
Pax Empyrean

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Sure, feel free.

#31
Senjosama

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Wow, if you found some people somewhere else on the Internet who agree with you, you must be right! Never mind that the Internet provides people who agree with literally any position you can think of.
Don't worry, at the very least, they're much more reliable and have much more common sense than you two. Also again, if there's the common belief between the community over two kids who think they're right, one of them is much more believable. I find it interesting once again how you disregard the entire post, but okay. That's pretty much a win in itself.

I'm not saying that someone has to be my "ideal" leader in order to be a leader. They just have to do something in the role of a leader to count as a leader.
Again, that is something in your own idea of an ideal leader. Mami is leading the group, therefore she's a leader. It's pretty simple. I fail to see how her leading the group isn't leading?

They have to actually lead at some point, not just serve as somebody else's mouthpiece. I said that Mami never made any decisions as a leader and you come up with examples of her trying to do things on her own or deciding to follow her manager.
She wasn't just serving as someone's mouth piece. That's a huge and especially incorrect assumption. She did make descisions as a leader, you're clearly trolling and being a joke. Stop it. Did you even read my post? Clearly not.
Here, she's clearly helping another group by informing them of the Pristichampus's weakness of not being able to swim (effectively) in water. This is also heavily implied to be from her own prediction, Thunder Wolf who seems to think she never made any on the island.
Here, she informs her group about her fake prediction. Under Nakayama's orders, in her own descision. Therefore not joining up with the other group.
Here, she confronts her Manager wondering if it was right to follow her actions.
Here, Mami is clearly warning her Manager (a member of her group) about the dangers ahead. Something a leader should do, according to you all. She's clearly worrying about the well-being of her followers.
Here she confronts Sengoku (the other groups leader), from the recent events, desputing whether or not to confront him about them. She also decides not to which has something to do with her group.
Again, she warns her Manager of the dangers ahead.
Here, she warns and confronts Sengoku's group. Notice how she's the one talking and not the others?
The other 3 follow upon seeing their leader taken away. It's an indisputable fact that they still trust her, despite it being let out that Nakayama was doing the killings.
Here, she tries to run back to her Manager to help her from getting devoured.
Here, she warns the two men to come back as soon as possible if they're in danger.
Here, she defends Uchimura and trusts him enough to stay in the bush.
Here, it's pretty much proof she actually cares about her followers. Even after being attacked, similar to Sengoku. Quite respectable too.

Mami is obviously the leader. I don't even know how that can be disputed.

Those are not decisions for the group or anyone else except for Mami.
It's quite clear that Mami made the final descisions. Whether or not you like it or not, she made the descision. Not anyone else, they suggested it to her, but ultimately, she had the power to say "yes" or "no". Sure, saying yes didn't make her as good of a leader, but she is still a leader.

I used the example of televangelists to point out that the actual position of leadership is distinct from being acknowledged as the leader, but you went off about how I supposedly think someone has to be an "ideal" leader to count.
That's an understatement, it's quite clear that you think

The nominal leader in that case is God, acknowledged by the televangelist and his followers, but God has nothing to do with any of the goings on taking place. The actual leader is the televangelist. By your response you seem to think I was saying that the televangelist isn't the leader because he isn't an "ideal" leader. I can only conclude that you are stupid.
The difference is, "god" may not exist. Mami clearly exists. Therefore, doesn't make the group one of your silly religious things where the High Priest makes descisions based on "god". Nakayama makes decisions and asks Mami to follow through with them, meaning she's literally relying on Mami's power as a leader. This is quite clear. Given that you don't even know the definition of a leader and keep bringing your idealistic views into it, I fail to see how your insult makes any sense.

Lets try again for you since you're stupid; suppose that it is discovered that the president is a mindless robot, controlled by somebody else. None of the things he's told us are his own decision, and he's just been somebody else's mouthpiece this whole time. Is he still the leader? You would say yes because people listened to what he said and called him the leader. I would say no because the thing that people are calling the "leader" hasn't actually been making any of the decisions for the country.
The fact is, she isn't a mindless robot. What a stupid theory. She's a human being who takes into account what other people say to her and follows through with that. There's a difference than just letting someone control you, this isn't the case where they just let them control them. So obviously, if Mami was just a sock puppet, she would say anything the Manager would say, no? That's obviously not true as she didn't even know the murders were just that, murders. So of course, her final descision to relay fake predictions wasn't a good one, but in the end it effected the group as a whole and it was in the end, her descision.

The leader is the person who makes the decisions, not the person who reads the press release or puts a pretty face on the message.
You clearly don't know anything. A leader is someone who commands the group. Learn this, read this and get it through your thick skull. It's her descision to listen to someone else and since she holds the power - in other words, leading the group, Mami is the leader. They were listening to Mami, not Nakayama. Whether you like it or not, if Nakayama said the same thing, people wouldn't listen to her. If Mami said it, people would listen. You're wrong. Blunt, simple, fact.

Nice job quoting someone on MangaFox (that I don't even know if they exist), and telling me to go to a website owned by NOEZ. Bravo, I applaud your trolling expertise!
Fortunately they clearly have more common sense than you. Heck, you could be Pax Empyrean using double accounts because you feel sad that you know you're wrong. Considering you're entire argument is a massive joke, I fail to see how you aren't a troll.

Oh, and I did look them up. Rosalie is a common username. But I did find a simple rosalie, but she's never posted anything. The other people have similar circumstances, or won't appear in the member search. Maybe you should actually make a decent argument instead of making someone up. But I guess you can't do that because Chuck Norris himself told you not to. >_>
Cool, her MSN name and her Mangafox name are obviously going to be the same. No, her username is Veggiebul. Just in case you need more claficiation on how wrong you are. The fact that my argument is conclusive, please don't call it decent, with backed up by other people and the communities majority opinion (by a large marjin no less), maybe you should get a brain before arguing. "LolNishikioriisn'taleader!" <-- Proven wrong. What do you do? Ignore. The fact you ignore half my argument pretty much concludes you're wrong since you have the pattern of ignoring someting when you're wrong which is a majority of the stuff I say.

I'm saying she expected someone in the group to have the initial "W" in their name. She just planned on killing someone with a "W" in their name, then changed her plans. Obviously.
No, she didn't. What the hell are you on about? That defies all common sense. Nakayama clearly plans ahead, she's smart, realistic and logical. She was acting then and acting before that. Her plans weren't screwed up at all, however as she couldn't blow her cover, she obviously couldn't be like: "Oh, don't worry. It has nothing to do with that." That's stupid in so many ways. Her plan wasn't ruined, can you prove that? Because it's quite evident she was acting in an attempt to manipulate both groups.

I was saying you shouldn't take a quote out of context just to further your own argument, which you did. How is it not your problem when you obviously misrepresented what I said? I guess when I bring that to your attention, it makes sense to you to then go off topic. You keep avoiding that fact.
And you should make a valid argument instead of your own wrong interpretations of what a leader is and what statements in the manga are. Which is your problem, a much worse one as it makes your entire argument invalid because it's all hypothetical crap. Don't say such absurd things. I don't avoid facts. I look at them. I'm not you. Please don't misunderstand, but you're the only one avoiding facts.

She was using her fame. Which is a rather easy tactic to guarantee a group will follow you.
Um, that changes Mami being a leader how? Please reread. You're seriously a joke. How did Mami not hold the power in her group? She did. This is a fact. Everyone in the group acknowledges this fact, too. There's a reason Nakayama used Mami over herself, no? Do you want the right answer? Well you're getting it, because I truly beieve the Dodo bird isn't extinct now. The correct answer is, drum roll please... Nakayama was using Mami, because she was the one in power.

What are you talking about? Why should he stop contradicting me? Either way, you took his quote out of context. You completely ignored it. Let me bold the parts you ignored. "Her manager was clearly the source of all of her "predictions" that anybody else heard about; the manager said so herself that Mami didn't make any of them. Mami had other premonitions that turned out to be true, but kept them all to herself." He's obviously referring to her time on the island, not when she was in Japan.
He should stop contradicting you because you're trying to defend the same thing yet both saying contardictory things which looks very bad on your less than sub-par argument. Also wtf? The Manager was not the source of all her predictions. That's an assumption, prove it. The Manager can't stop Mami from having predictions and it's given it'll happen within 3 months since she had interviews and had to predict something each time. How do you know Mami kept them all to herself? The fact she warned Nakayama about her predictions is proof enough that she didn't just let them slide by. Not only that, warning Sengoku's group, finding Sengoku's group and the swamp.

Let me highlight what important here. "Mami never told anybody else about her actual premonitions." "No, she didn't. That's absurd." Unless you meant, "Yes she did", you're agreeing with him. It's hard trying to reason with you when you're agreeing and disagreeing with us at the same time.
Proof? Oh wait, there isn't any. It's a blatant assumption that you're trying to force which isn't true. What a fail-whale. I've also answered this numerous times, so please get your eyes checked and read them.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean anything. Let's use Sengoku for example. He could have killed a friend of his. He's had the chances. That doesn't mean he did or that he's a murderer. Maya has the power to beat Sengoku up and force him to obey her. Does that make her a leader? Power does not equate to leadership. You can have all the power in the world, but if you take orders from someone else, you're not the leader, they are.
What the hell? Yes, just because you can do something does mean quite a bit. Your example also holds no context or relevance showing your mental retardation brilliantly. Good job. Mami is a leader because she holds the power to do so, is recognized as such and is blatantly the leader. What does power have to do with anything? You're clearly avoiding about 80% of my quotes, all my facts and saying absurd assumptions. Again, this isn't even a debate, I'm the only one being logical here. I think Pax is attempting to, but his god references make me think otherwise.

I'll put it simply this seems to be your only actual point. Telling the leader to do something does not make you a leader. Nakayama is not the leader because she's ordering Mami to do a few things. Please clarify:
#1. How does that show Nakayama is leading anyone?
#2. How does that show SHE is followed by others?
I'll answer them. Nakayama is leading Mami, no more. So she isn't the leader. She fits none of the definitions of a leader. Fact.

Let me highlight a few things here."Not doing actions that a leader would do doesn't make you a leader." You are exactly correct! Not being a leader does not make you a leader! Glad we're on the same page! The rest of the argument equates to, "She chose to go to the bathroom without asking! She's a leader!". It's not "making descisions" that makes you a leader. It's making them for other people.
Interesting how you need to highlight things instead of tacklign the fact as a whole. Not that you can't tackle anything, since you argument is the most flimsy thing I've seen in my life. It's quite clear the only way for you to win an argument is time, ignoring one and stupidity. A leader can sit around all day and do nothing. In fact, that's what some leaders in real life do. Again, you're bringing your own ideal of a leader into this. A leader is someone followed by others or someone who holds the power and commands a group. Mami having BOTH of them. It has nothing to do with actions. Learn, read, stop being an idiot.

Talking in an interview outside of the island makers her the leader? Also, did you know that ancient civilizations used Oracles? They didn't always follow what they said, but they still listened to them. Did that mean the leader of those groups was in fact, the oracle? No! The Oracle is just someone you listen to for advice on what to do. Mami is fulfilling that role to the letter.
Wow. I have never seen such an idiotic post. This has contradicted what you've been saying the entire time. Nakayama is the one playing the Oracle role, as she's the one advicing. So now, you just said she isn't the leader and Mami is the message from the Oracle, meaning in the end - it's a completely contradicting statement you've made. It's terrible at that. Nakayama is advising Mami, yes. Mami is the leader. Pretty fact and simple.

They valued her as an asset, not as a person. If she didn't have her predictions and was ugly, they'd ignore her. They were protective of her because they wanted to guard their sexy prediction machine. If you have a wallet, you would protect it from thieve's right? Do you respect your wallet as a friend, though?
Can you prove that? No. That's like saying everyone in Sengoku's group value him as an asset and not a person. Also, contradiction! Again!~ Not surprising actually. "If", well she does. Meaning you just admitted that they and yourself recognize her as a leader. And the rest? Assumption, assumption and assumption. Good job. The amount of argument is none. Because you only assumed things.

I also showed this particular quote to a few people (irl) and they questioned your age. Seriously, how can you say rape is normal in a panic situation? Have you ever even been in one? I have, and I sure as hell didn't try and rape anyone.
Um, you clearly don't know jack shit. It's actually happened, in many breakdown situations. Can you prove you won't? Oh no, you can't. I never said it was normal at all, please don't say such absurd, retarded things. You're obviously an idiot. What they done isn't acceptable, obviously. I never said it was. However, you can't judge them at all for attempting to rape her when it's happened in real life. Have you heard of an Earthquake? No? You need to read "51 Ways to Protect Your Girlfriend", in fact, it was even stated by Mariya at the start of the series that panic causes people to change in a whole different way. Don't bring your hypothetical nonsense into reality. You don't know how you'd act and given your brain, I don't think you'd survive in very many situations. Also, I'm going to repeat:
Nice job quoting someone in real life, and telling me to that you have real friends. Bravo, I applaud your trolling expertise! I find it interesting that you tell them bullshit (ie. lies) and proceed to tell me you have real friends that might not even exist. Good job.

Damn, Pax! That was an amazing post! Mind if I use parts of it for a leadership event I attend?
You won't win. Especially when you're relying on someone else to do the work for you. The fact that at least, Pax is arguing somewhat reasonably and you're simply relying on him to make sense of the argument is pretty sad.


Then again, neither of you are doing very well.
Me: You can't blame them for their actions during a panic. They're not normally like that.
Pax: You tink rape is acceptebul? YOU'RE FOOKD
Thunder: ow c@n u sey rape is accepturaba in paneek situ?

Excuse me you two, but calm your farms. I never said it was acceptable. It's quite evident both of you don't read my posts. This isn't an argument, do you know why?

#1. You're assuming.
#2. You're ignoring the manga.
#3. You're bringing your ideal situations into context.
#4. You're down right wrong.
#5. You're ignoring 80% of my post and trying to target small things.
- You're you wrong anyway.
- Or you make it completely out of context to make it a point and then try and accuse the other of doing so.

Edited by WilliamP, 15 January 2012 - 01:00 AM.


#32
Pax Empyrean

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Your perspective is obscured by your own colon.

#33
Senjosama

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I'm sorry that you're going to obscure you're views like that. But you're arguing against the manga itself. It's pretty certain that's a forfeit. A pretty bad one at that. Unlike you, I go through fact instead of immature idealistic views on a leader instead of the reality of things.

Mami is the leader. Simple, fact.

The community recognizes this.
The author recognizes this.

Setting two kids straight is not a hard job.

Edited by WilliamP, 15 January 2012 - 02:17 AM.


#34
Pax Empyrean

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By "the community" do you mean those people you made up? In this thread there are three people debating this, and everyone who isn't you agrees that you're wrong.

Setting two kids straight is not a hard job.


First of all, you aren't "setting anybody straight", you're just arguing in circles. Second, I was in college by the time you were in third grade, kid.

#35
Senjosama

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Sorry, yeah, the ones I "made up", like you're Thunder_Wolf's second account.

Age doesn't excuse personality and attitude.

It's pretty evident you're wrong. Plain and simple. You can't argue otherwise and when you do:
#1. You're assuming.
#2. You're ignoring the manga.
#3. You're bringing your ideal situations into context.
#4. You're down right wrong.
#5. You're ignoring 80% of my post and trying to target small things.
- You're you wrong anyway.
- Or you make it completely out of context to make it a point and then try and accuse the other of doing so.

I don't even know why you joined in. Maybe you were butt hurt or something, but unless you're saying the manga itself is wrong, then you have another thing coming. Do you seriously think people think Nakayama is the leader of the group? You're down right wrong. You clearly aren't well endorced in talking to other people, even on the internet. As the scanlator, I avidly talk to its fans on just about every forum. You're not the only ones who've been proven wrong and before you sprout nonsense, please study up before making stupid accusations such as "fake people". So until you grow up personality-wise instead of:

"herp derp, you think rape is acceptable", then you're very well a kid in my eyes. Also lol, making up stuff. That's all you're doing - not surprised. Proof or leave. Funny how you can't do either.

Whether you like it or not, you're outclassed in about ever way possible.

Edited by WilliamP, 15 January 2012 - 02:44 AM.


#36
Grumpy

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This is getting out of hand. Locked

Just so people know, there is a limit to max number of quotes per post (this helps ppl with crappy computer not crash). I suggest you try making proper paragraphs in making argument rather than making 100 quote splits.
Actually... I suggest you guys not talk to each other.