35 replies to this topic

[Mokata]

Who is the best leader and why?

[soranokira]

...sengoku akira, isn't that obvious :< dude has the largest army. and they all follow him willingly.
Yarai leads through power/sheer strength, the doctor guy leads through fear. while akira leads through...charisma? leadership? no idea. anyway, he even knows the pros and cons of almost everyone in his group. now THATS a leader.

[Kyujyu]

I want to say Yarai because he can actually fight the animal but the winner is still Akira IMO because although he is not as strong as Yarai, he always pulled through with his wits and gut(and his comrade will readily help him compared to Yarai team that consist only of normal girl).
Not everybody can do that!
The doctor using fear is a very risky gamble, his follower will tip he off with even a slight event(not that he's even thinking of that I guess)

[Senjosama]

I'm going with Mami (well, Kyouko). The way she ran the group was sheer amazement and they done things pretty well at avoiding danger (if not for using them to their advantage). It would've been perfect if Kyouoko and Wrestelr actually believed in Mami's predictions.

Also I think Yamaguchi has the most charisma, if that accounts for being the best leader. But, there are too many other factors to put him on top, IMO.

Edited by WilliamP, 28 December 2011 - 01:24 AM.

[Soran Lioncore]

sengoku is the best leader in aspect of subordinates trust and charisma.

yarai is best in aspect of intellect and strength.

and the deceased father who once ruled the pyramid group. he formed a group with more than 50 members.
to bad he's dead

[Nilix]

Fools, Miina-chan is the greatest leader!

[Exkalamity]

Fools, Miina-chan is the greatest leader!

Pretty much this. Her underlings would die for her without a second thought.

[Pax Empyrean]

That depends on how you're defining "best leader". Mina inspired fanatical devotion among her followers but didn't really accomplish much or organize them to any productive end as far as we know. Establishing a cult of personality gets one into a position of leadership, but doesn't really make a good leader in my opinion. Yarai keeps his group safe, but doesn't really get much use out of his followers either. He wouldn't be able to protect everybody in a larger group. Sengoku's followers are loyal but not fanatical, and he's not as smart or strong as Yarai, but he knows the individual strengths of his people and puts them to best use. He's probably best able to handle a larger group and actually accomplish things. The doctor rules through fear alone and doesn't really have much of anything to offer his subjects. In real life, dictators rely on military power to keep their position. The doctor doesn't even have that; his position isn't stable, and it stretches disbelief that he hasn't been killed by his own subjects already. A promise of loyalty doesn't really last too long once you figure out that the guy is a self-serving asshole who wouldn't hesitate to throw away any of your lives for basically no reason at all.

[Sheapy]

That depends on how you're defining "best leader". Mina inspired fanatical devotion among her followers but didn't really accomplish much or organize them to any productive end as far as we know. Establishing a cult of personality gets one into a position of leadership, but doesn't really make a good leader in my opinion. Yarai keeps his group safe, but doesn't really get much use out of his followers either. He wouldn't be able to protect everybody in a larger group. Sengoku's followers are loyal but not fanatical, and he's not as smart or strong as Yarai, but he knows the individual strengths of his people and puts them to best use. He's probably best able to handle a larger group and actually accomplish things. The doctor rules through fear alone and doesn't really have much of anything to offer his subjects. In real life, dictators rely on military power to keep their position. The doctor doesn't even have that; his position isn't stable, and it stretches disbelief that he hasn't been killed by his own subjects already. A promise of loyalty doesn't really last too long once you figure out that the guy is a self-serving asshole who wouldn't hesitate to throw away any of your lives for basically no reason at all.

Except he's holding the fear of death over his group. Basically he's a needed existence because he's the only one that can cure the "disease" that spread throughout the group. At the moment, his group believes that if he dies, they will all die too. He's basically holding his group at gunpoint through medical knowledge.

Personally I kind of want to see that chemistry teacher do some work. That last chapter made him seem pretty badass

[Liar]

Not to mention that the doctor is just that, a doctor. If anyone from their group is injured or sick, they need the help from an individual who knows medicine. First aid can only go so far in this setting after all.

I would have to say that Sengoku Akira makes the best leader out of all them. However, I can see Yarai being an excellent field leader if or when he starts being actively part of Akira's group.

[Senjosama]

I dunno, Arita and his force of hormone-crazed girls seemed pretty fierce if he didn't go and kill them off himself.

[Thunder Wolf]

It depends on what kind of leader.
Sengoku is the best "true" leader. He not only has effective leadership skills, but has gained the respect of those in other groups as well. He's such a good leader, that he's inspired others in his group to become good leaders in his absence. He's made it so that even if he dies, his group will live on and continue to emulate him. His influence has helped make the others in his group into better people who will also have a better chance of survival.

Yarai is the best protector, so he doesn't count. While he leads, he does not really utilize his followers efficiently. All he does is actively protect everyone in his group through his own strength. He's essentially a body guard.

Fake-Miina is an OK leader, but he hasn't shown long-term leadership capability. We all remember how his first leadership position ended, right? He's more suited to short term trickery and insight, than actual leading. Also, Fake-Miina can't stay a trap loli forever.

Mami as a leader sounds ridiculous. She has no confidence and zero inspirational skills. She's nothing but a support. Just like in a game (I know, not a real world example, but I'm making an analogy), the Healer class is never the leader.

As for the doctor, can he even be counted? What he's doing isn't really leadership, as it is slavery. If the people he's controlling for even an instant think they are safe from him and are not in danger of dieing, they'd kill him or escape.

Personally, I think the Pervy Teacher might be a good leader. We haven't seen a lot of him, but based on what we've seen, and my bellythink, I believe he's probably a good leader. Probably not as good as Sengoku, though.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Conclusion: Sengoku is the best leader.

Edited by Thunder Wolf, 12 January 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[Mokata]

It depends on what kind of leader.
Sengoku is the best "true" leader. He not only has effective leadership skills, but has gained the respect of those in other groups as well. He's such a good leader, that he's inspired others in his group to become good leaders in his absence. He's made it so that even if he dies, his group will live on and continue to emulate him. His influence has helped make the others in his group into better people who will also have a better chance of survival.

Yarai is the best protector, so he doesn't count. While he leads, he does not really utilize his followers efficiently. All he does is actively protect everyone in his group through his own strength. He's essentially a body guard.

Fake-Miina is an OK leader, but he hasn't shown long-term leadership capability. We all remember how his first leadership position ended, right? He's more suited to short term trickery and insight, than actual leading. Also, Fake-Miina can't stay a trap loli forever.

Mami as a leader sounds ridiculous. She has no confidence and zero inspirational skills. She's nothing but a support. Just like in a game (I know, not a real world example, but I'm making an analogy), the Healer class is never the leader.

As for the doctor, can he even be counted? What he's doing isn't really leadership, as it is slavery. If the people he's controlling for even an instant think they are safe from him and are not in danger of dieing, they'd kill him or escape.

Personally, I think the Pervy Teacher might be a good leader. We haven't seen a lot of him, but based on what we've seen, and my bellythink, I believe he's probably a good leader. Probably not as good as Sengoku, though.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Conclusion: Sengoku is the best leader.

Yeah Sengoku is my favor leader for all the obvious reason but must of all is trust.
Also The doctor is a leader just like a dictator is a leader.

[Thunder Wolf]

But is a kidnapper a leader? He's essentially holding them hostage. Even a Dictator has other people in positions of power besides himself. Dictators are allowed to lead the way they do because of a system of subordinates that allow them to. This doctor has no people raised to a higher level of trust or authority. He's no different than a person robbing a bank and holding people at gunpoint.

While you could call him a "leader", he'd be one of the worst. He displays zero positive leadership traits. His "leadership" will result in most of his group dieing.

Edit: I hadn't read all of Pax's message. He nicely summed up what I've been saying ever since the doctor was introduced.

The doctor rules through fear alone and doesn't really have much of anything to offer his subjects. In real life, dictators rely on military power to keep their position. The doctor doesn't even have that; his position isn't stable, and it stretches disbelief that he hasn't been killed by his own subjects already. A promise of loyalty doesn't really last too long once you figure out that the guy is a self-serving asshole who wouldn't hesitate to throw away any of your lives for basically no reason at all.

Also, I'd like to make a very important note about the doctor's medical skills. Just because you have a particular skill, does not mean you are a good leader. He's a doctor. He heals people. That doesn't inherently make him a capable leader. Saying being a doctor equates to being a good leader is the same as saying, "He's a lawyer, so he'll make a good juggler". It doesn't make any sense.

Edited by Thunder Wolf, 12 January 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[Senjosama]

Nishikiori didn't kidnap them. Though, he is holding them hostage and manipulating him, but he is definitely a leader as that's how he leads his group.

Also Mami is a leader too. She was like a theocratic leader, being the "god" of the group whilst Nakayama was the "high priest" of the group, in a kind of theocratic sense. Arguably, Nakayama could also be called the leader.

Similar to the Saji/Yoshimoto situation. Saji is the most proiment person in the group, however they all followed Yoshimoto's advice over everyone else.

Edited by WilliamP, 12 January 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[Thunder Wolf]

You do realize I never disputed Mami being a leader. I ridiculed the thought of her being in a leadership position. And actually, Mami was more of a figure head than a leader.

I did not literally mean he kidnapped them. I was using a comparison. By comparing him to a kidnapper, I was hoping to demonstrate how he isn't really a leader, but simply holding them hostage. I'm assuming we're using the positive meaning of a leader, so I would think we'd discuss based on those points. The doctor could be defined as a toxic leader, but that's not the same "leadership" that I'd assume the purpose of this thread was based on.

But then again, even if you were super literal, you'd have to take into account that leadership isn't power over people, but power with people. A simple way to put it, is that you need a give and take for it to actually be leadership. Giving orders does not equate to leadership. The same as how a slave owner isn't a leader of slaves.

[Pax Empyrean]

Didn't the doctor already cure them in exchange for an oath of loyalty? They're basically just helping him carry out his evil plans out of an overinflated sense of obligation at this point, not because they're sick and they need his medicine. It's not like doctors can just whip up new cures out of the jungle either; most of his knowledge is pretty useless without the infrastructure that modern doctors are trained to use.

I think this is one of those cases where I just facepalm at some aspects of Japanese culture, specifically the tendency toward rigid hierarchy and carrying out obligations even when it makes more sense not to. The doctor is obviously an evil murdering bastard, but he's still got his position because his minions are comfortable where they are with someone telling them what to do so they don't have to take their own initiative and act on their own. Oh, and since they promised they'd let him be in charge, he gets to be dictator for life, and the fact that he's an evil murdering bastard isn't a big enough deal that they would reconsider letting him have that position.

[Senjosama]

You do realize I never disputed Mami being a leader. I ridiculed the thought of her being in a leadership position. And actually, Mami was more of a figure head than a leader.

I did not literally mean he kidnapped them. I was using a comparison. By comparing him to a kidnapper, I was hoping to demonstrate how he isn't really a leader, but simply holding them hostage. I'm assuming we're using the positive meaning of a leader, so I would think we'd discuss based on those points. The doctor could be defined as a toxic leader, but that's not the same "leadership" that I'd assume the purpose of this thread was based on.

But then again, even if you were super literal, you'd have to take into account that leadership isn't power over people, but power with people. A simple way to put it, is that you need a give and take for it to actually be leadership. Giving orders does not equate to leadership. The same as how a slave owner isn't a leader of slaves.

Well excuse me. I was not trying to be rude, given the tone of your post. Mami was the one maintaining the group, she was pretty much the leader as she was the one who could finalize any of Nakayama's descisions.

Also, I don't know why one would dispute whether or not Nishikiori is a leader as he is simply defined as such. The characters say so, the people follow his orders and he is naturally figured as a leader by the author. If you're going to argue Nishikiori being a leader, it's quite easy to do so for a Sengoku and any other character too.

Whether or not it's acceptable, Nishikiori is a leader. A kidnapper leading a heist, he's the leader of such group. The hostages? They're not considered apart of a kidnappers group, or else they would be charged...

[Thunder Wolf]

This is beginning to get frustrating. You verified my statement, yet you also said it was not true. I will try to make this as blunt as possible. Nishikiori has created a hostage situation. All the people following his orders are only doing it because they are hostages. They believe that if they rebel, they will die because he will kill them or make them sick. A person performing a heist alone isn't a leader, as he's alone. It'd be rather hard for anyone to make a rational argument against the others being leaders because they actually do what a leader, by definition, does.

I just reread the Mami clervoiant arc. Please cite a page where she displays leadership. Warning others of danger does not make you a leader.
The leader of that group was Mami's manager. They were using Mami as a figurehead to convince others to obey and do what they wanted. In fact, the manager made her say false predictions so she could have her group secretly murder people. When Mami had a real prediction, nobody in her group listened to her. In fact, her manager said, "Are you threatening me?". Mami was just a weak little girl being pushed around by others. She almost got raped by people in her own group before they were eaten by the crocs. How is that in any way a leader?

[Senjosama]

This is beginning to get frustrating.

Well, that's unfortunately not my problem. So I apologize, once again. A small debate is nothing to get angry about. I definitely think you need to understand something, though. The definition of a leader:

• The person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country.
• A person followed by others.

I will try to make this as blunt as possible. Nishikiori has created a hostage situation.

No, he hasn't. Sure, everyone is being manipulated, but there are no hostages. In fact, he kills any hostages pretty fast. He also makes it quite clear that he doesn't care about any hostages. It isn't a hostage situation as people aren't FORCED to follow his orders. People are definitely scared of him which influences their decisions, but it's simple, he's even giving people the opportunity for escape.

All the people following his orders are only doing it because they are hostages. They believe that if they rebel, they will die because he will kill them or make them sick. A person performing a heist alone isn't a leader, as he's alone. It'd be rather hard for anyone to make a rational argument against the others being leaders because they actually do what a leader, by definition, does.

I believe that is the biggest influence for him, that he may cause a few to be sick before he dies or leave them as such. However, you're clearly misunderstanding his position. People are quite willingly following his orders. In fact, Kubo, a prominent member in his group even suggests himself to help him. Now please look at the definition of a leader. Nishikiori is definitely leading his group, this is stated numerous times and it's by fear. He's a leader, no matter how you see it. It's an indisputable fact and rather pointless to do otherwise. It's clear he's the boss, the leader, the head honcho of the group. He makes the descisions in the group whether it is through fear or not and it's pretty blatant that some even enjoy being under his presence, such at Kubo and the fat guy who looks like a second version of Karino. You make it sound like a Totalitarian government system would also be considered a heist. Everyone follows his orders, he is a leader. He controls the group, and is followed by everyone.

I just reread the Mami clervoiant arc. Please cite a page where she displays leadership. Warning others of danger does not make you a leader.

Sure, there are quite a few. I've pretty much memorized CoE, whether that's an accomplishment or not.
First of all, the group accepted her as the leader. Fact. The group as a whole, did not accept Nakayama as the leader.
The fact they've survived is thanks to her abilities.
She was clearly said she was the one who allowed them to meet Sengoku's group, again going back to her premonitions.
She is the deciding factor for not joining up with Sengoku's group with her premonition.

The leader of that group was Mami's manager.

Mami's manager was pulling the strings on Mami, however Mami was still the leader of the group. If she simply didn't listen to Nakayama, then of course, Nakayama's commands wouldn't have happened. In the end, it all went down to Mami.

They were using Mami as a figurehead to convince others to obey and do what they wanted.

That changes Mami from being the leader how? The fact you called her a figurehead is pretty much calling her leader, except the fact, that is wrong considering Mami does hold the power in the group. The only two that she didn't hold power against were the murderers, where she could easily control them through her knowledge of them being murderers.

In fact, the manager made her say false predictions so she could have her group secretly murder people. When Mami had a real prediction, nobody in her group listened to her. In fact, her manager said, "Are you threatening me?".

"Nobody" in the group listened to her? You're clearly misunderstanding a HUGE thing. This wasn't her first real premonition. She's been having them since the very start of her being on the island, heck, even BEFORE she came on the island. Her prediction on meeting Sengoku's group, was correct, no? The fact that the people in her group that would've listened to her, everyone bar Nakayama and the wrestler she didn't talk to about. She did make false predictions, but they were only on the murders actually taking place. IN this case, the swamp murder, Gotou/Shinji murder and attempted on Oomori/Mariya.

Mami was just a weak little girl being pushed around by others. She almost got raped by people in her own group before they were eaten by the crocs. How is that in any way a leader?

Mami was weak-willed, but that stopped her from being a leader how? She's the one leader that was weak-willed, but the system in her group was pretty clear. Unfortuantely she didn't put the best use to it thanks to her personality, but that doesn't make her in any way not a leader. And so, she almost got raped by her members who were clearly in a massive panic/frenzy. Sengoku has had that happen to him much more.
#1. Getting strangled and thrown off a cliff by Kotomi.
#2. Letting his whole group panic during the Argentavis invasion.
#3. Getting head bashed by Hikime.
#4. Letting Suzuki rat out everyone in his group.

It's simple.
Sengoku is a leader.
Yarai is a leader.
Nishikiori is a leader.
Yamaguchi was a leader.
Miina (Fake) was a leader.
Mami was a leader.
Eiken was a leader.

The only unknown ones are:
Tooru.
Eiken after Seigou joined.
Saji or Yoshimoto.