[quote]I'll concede that Nishikori is a leader. I didn't pay close enough attention to the expressions on his followers faces.[/quote]
Even without their expressions, it still fits the definition of a leader.
[quote]As for your comment on totalitarian leaders, they have military support. while the people of the country might not agree, they have followers in the government and military.[/quote]
Yes and Nishikiori has a disease as support.
[quote]However, Mami is a figurehead. Let me define what a figurehead is. "
a leader in name only who has no real power."[/quote]
Thank you for just stating she is a leader. You are completely mislead by the fact that you're using a different word, yes, a figurehead is a leader with no real power, but that doesn't change the fact they're a leader. A figurehead is a leader, whether or not they're relying on their friends abilities or not.
[quote]The person who said that didn't know about her fake predictions. He's not a reliable source.[/quote]
What fake predictions? The only ones we actually know of are the two done on Sengoku's group and it's implied the one on the lake wasn't real. She could have said real premonitions which is actually quite evident as she predicted they would meet Sengoku's group.
[quote]That image you cited was a fake prediction made by her manager.[/quote]
Proof?
[quote]In fact, her manager was visibly shocked when no one had a name with the letter "W" in it because it ruined her plans. She had to improvise by killing those two.[/quote]
How were her plans ruined? That's a huge assumption. It's quite clear she was acting the entire time, as was the wrestler on not knowing anything. You have no proof at all her plans were ruined and given that she had to act like she knew nothing at all from the get-go is pretty blatant.
[quote]The manager even said, "It's not like you really have premonitions". That means that at least the entire time on the island, her "predictions" that came true were all things she was told to say by her manager.[/quote]
That changes anything? One person mistrusting her premonitions doesn't change anything. I guess Sengoku isn't a leader because Hikime didn't trust him and Suzuki doesn't support him. It's quite clear Nakayama is a realistic character, as in, she tries to benefit herself through the use of others. She was indeed using Mami. Of course, she doesn't believe her, but that means very little. In fact, she has very well created many real predictions in front of her manager in case you haven't realized. The only reason she even knew of Mami was from her own prediction. This isn't just once, but numerous times. "Whenever I said what popped into my head... I was correct." If you didn't notice, Nakayama is in the background clearly seeing her get things right. It's her own stubborness for not believing Mami's predictions as she has proved she has had true predictions in front of her.
[quote]I know she really
does have premonitions, but the predictions that she told her group were fake. She didn't even believe herself that she had premonitions until later. She even called them flukes.[/quote]
Yes, they were flukes because she got them right and didn't expect them to. That was quite evident, since even her mother had held the same ability. I don't even know if you reread Mami's arc at all, considering her whole character revolves around her doubting herself because
of other people.
[quote]This page nicely spells it out that Mami was never the real leader.[/quote]
Yes, that page makes it quite clear that Mami can tell premonitions to any other group whether it's under Nakayama's influence or not proving she has the power in the group.
[quote]If she didn't listen to Nakayama, you honestly think people would listen to her? Her manager marketed her and had them believe.[/quote]
What an invalid argument. So what if it's thanks to someone else she was put into a leader position? You also just admitted everyone listened to her, which is clearly quite contradicting when you're trying to say that she isn't the leader.
[quote]Mami didn't seem to want to be a leader to begin with.[/quote]
Again, doesn't change anything. Not wanting to and being something are completely different. She doesn't want to, but she was. Simple.
[quote]Without her manager, she would never had been in the position she's in.[/quote]
Without voters, Obama wouldn't be president. Does that mean we shouldn't call him president? It's pretty simple. Without her manager, Mami wouldn't have been made leader. But thanks to her manager, she is the leader.
[quote]Also, as her manager came up with her predictions since she came to the island, the followers would begin to lose faith without the carefully crafted predictions. All the the managers predictions came true and were important.[/quote]
Except Mami has had her premonitions since childhood. It's pretty simple. The people didn't believe Mami's abilities, so she wasn't leader. They all died, despite Mami telling them about the dangers ahead and they died not listening to her. The remaining people believed her and she was made the leader. Whether or not it was one of Nakayama's lies, she is the leader.
[quote]Refer back to what I said about her calling her predictions flukes. Also, how do we know the Sengoku's group prediction wasn't fake? Mami's manager made it very clear that all the official predictions on the island were only ones Mami was told to say. That means
every single one of her predictions on the island that we didn't actually see in either a flashback or by seeing her experience the prediction, is questionable and possibly fake.[/quote]
In other words, you're grasping at the fact that her manager made two fake premonitions to Sengoku's group and you're falsely stating that it was the entire case with the island? Wrong. She had premonitions since her childhood and had numerous of them during her time in fame getting all interviews correct and making her way onto numerous headlines and newspapers. Unless you're going to say that her manager told her what to say when it was quite clear this was not the case.
[quote]You took my quote out of context. When I said, "How is that in
any way a leader?" I was talking about
ALL the points I made. Remember, that was a paragraph. I basically listed a few things, which I will make clearer.[/quote]
That's not my problem.
[quote]1. Mami was a figurehead.
2.Her real predictions were ignored by her manager.
3.Mami was too weak willed to resist, so she just got pushed around and almost raped by others. Nodoby respected her or actually listened to her.[/quote]
Basically...
1. Mami is a leader, with no power. <-- Wrong. Her premonitions held power and she could make them up, she held the group together, she is clearly the leader.
2. Her real predictions were ignored by her manager <-- Assumption. The prediction of her manager's death was ignored, this doesn't mean all her predictions were ignored. You're saying "once" as "every" which is quite silly.
3. A joke <-- Mami was too weak-willed to reject her manager's orders, yes. That doesn't make her not a leader. Basically, she got almost raped, yet you proceed to say nobody respected her? What a joke. If you even looked at the scene, Ikeda quite well respected her and wanted to see how much she developed as a woman. There's a reason Ikeda, Shouji and Uchimura all followed her predictions. It's because they respected her.
Whew, sorry for the triple post, but Batoto wouldn't let me post without splitting it. It'd be much appreciated if a mod/admin could merge them. Apparently the quotes start/end didn't match, but they clearly did having triple checked it, got Microsoft word to check and checked it myself.
[quote]I'm not saying her almost being raped in a time of panic is a factor of her being a leader or not. I'm saying that obviously, no one actually respected her. They were following for her power, not for her.[/quote]
Proof? You're taking a spur of the moment thing into how they feel about her. Which is clearly wrong. Do you even know why he attempted to rape her? Because he was under the impression that he was definitely going to die after being abandoned. It had nothing to do with Mami or not.
[quote]Here's exactly how. You keep mentioning "If only Mami did ___". Well, she
didn't.[/quote]
And here's pretty much the winning sentence. For me. The fact that you just now admit that Mami could've done something means you admit she had the power to do so. Just because she didn't doesn't make her any less of a leader. Yes, she didn't do it. So? That doesn't mean she couldn't have done it. Sure, her personality held her back from doing it, but that doesn't change the fact she was the leader of the group and had the ability to do whatever she wanted.
[quote]I could say that Oomori is a leader because she's an adult and if
only she would act more like one and took charge, she'd be the leader of Sengoku's group.[/quote]
Except the difference is Mami is officially recognized as the leader of the group, unlike Oomori.
[quote]But she
isn't the leader, and she
hasn't taken charge. It's easy to say "what if", but the reality is, Mami never actually lead her group. It was all her manager. Even if she
could have lead the group, she didn't.[/quote]
Proof? Mami did lead her group. What was Mami doing? Listening to Nakayama on what to do. What does Sengoku do? Listen to Mariya on what to do. It's pretty evident that you're just arguing that "Nakayama is the leader" which is exactly the same as arguing that "Mariya is the leader" over Sengoku. Nakayama was the advisor, Mami was the leader. Simple. Fact.
[quote]Mami was a pawn.[/quote]
She was a pawn, yet she was a leader.
[quote]She never made decisions for others, or even for herself.[/quote]
Erm, I guess bathing and warning Nakayama weren't considered her own descisions?
[quote]She was a figurehead, which is not the same as a leader.[/quote]
A figurehead is a different type of leader. I fail to see how you both can admit she's a figurehead when figurehead is very well a leader (with no power) which is actually incorrect as she held the power in the group.
[quote]A leader has to make decisions on behalf of others at some point. Mami never did. She had some true premonitions that she never told anybody else, and made a bunch of false ones as demanded by her manager.[/quote]
Um, no. Don't mix up your ideal definiton of a leader to the real one. A leader is someone who is followed by others - in other words, leads or commands a group which is clearly Mami.
[quote]If Mami started making decisions on behalf of the group, giving orders or telling her group about her premonitions then she could have been the leader pretty easily, but she never did that.[/quote]
Um, Mami did start making descisions. Her descision was to listen to Nakayama. Yes, Nakayama could be argued to be the leader, but that doesn't change the fact she holds absolutely no power. People listened to Mami, no ther. Meaning, Mami was the leader. It's pretty simple. She did tell the group about her premonitions, you clearly need to reread the arc.
[quote]She was basically just a sock puppet in human form.[/quote]
That changes her from being a leader how? It doesn't.
Both of you are quite clearly grasping at the fact she was being controled by Nakayama to say she isn't a leader which is completely wrong. It was on her own accord to listen to her Manager and the rest you guys are just saying is huge assumptions (ie. Mami never had a real premonition upon hitting the island). Mami was the recognized leader by the group. Nakayama did tell her what to do a few times, however Mariya tells Sengoku what to do just as much if not more times throughout the series. Does that mean Mariya is the leader for making the descisions? No. Sengoku acknowledges what Mariya is saying and leads the group to do such. Mami is acknowleding what Nakayama is saying and leading the group to do such.
I'll say it again:
- The person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country.
- A person followed by others.
Who leads the group? Mami.
Who are the people following? Mami.