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Gate released chapters discussion.


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#1
truepurple

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I really don't get whats going on there. They have the might and technology to easily invade without much unintended casualties. What are they waiting for, everyone to be dead by these villains?!!

 

Seriously, trying to recall back to the politicians discussing it, something like they are waiting for the right opening, if they act reckless people could die. But that makes no sense at all. What opening could possibly appear? How could anyone be at less risk of dying from them sitting on their hands for eternity?

 

I know what the rabbit girl is up to, pretty positive she's doing all this to make sure the empire is completely destroyed. She's setting things up so that JDSF will be forced to act and destroy them. You know, for revenge for destroying her kingdom, her people, and enslaving her as a sex slave.

 

I liked this comic ok before, but this plot where these evil fools are taking over and destroying everything while japan sits on its hands, has gone on way too long, gotten tedious.



#2
Mythrrinthael

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Are you aware of the history of America's interventions in the Middle-East, and the consequences for both the civilians there and the American soldiers who fought those wars? Reasons why Japan doesn't just go wild is plentiful. Soldiers getting PTSD for having to slaughter hundreds, if not thousands, of practically helpless primitive soldiers. Cultural "contamination". Christ, the US has created its own enemies by arming rebels of a ruling faction who turn on them later several times in the same geographical area. Already, there's a native police force armed by Japan. Even if all they have are just old bolt-action rifles, they could still kill a squad of Japanese soldiers with surprise on their side. It has been done before in real life.

If anything, I think Japan is still too reckless. A diplomatic station was bombed out of nothing but emotion-driven vengeance. How's it those Imperial guards' fault that Zorzal took a Japanese woman as a sex slave?

 

The most interesting plot development I've seen in this manga thus far is Tyuule's budding feelings for that Japanese "chef". I expected more intrigue, more exploration of topics like the horrors of asymmetrical warfare and PTSD. Things like cultural contamination and tragic misunderstandings. How come no angry native has come yelling at the PX store because their baby died after they gave it twenty sleeping pills because it was crying?

The only reason I'm still reading this is because the artist does a great job with character design (booru-bait, but good booru-bait) and architecture as well - it's not their fault the LN's plot is equivalent to a Japanese bootleg of the song "America, fuck yeah" as performed by raging drunk Yakuza mooks in a karaoke bar at 4 AM.



#3
truepurple

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booru-bait, but good booru-bait


What is that?

 

You've been watching too much Startrek, Prime directive has always been the shows stupidest concept, especially the way it was done on the show.

 

Are you aware of the history of America's interventions in the Middle-East, and the consequences for both the civilians there and the American soldiers who fought those wars?

     

If you are talking Iraq, alot of dumb things were done, including not supporting people who would support the US.

      Did you know that there was a group called Sons of Iraq that US empowered to help stabilize the country. It was successful. This after the US stupidly dismissed most of Iraqs army, leaving countless men jobless and left with nothing but being hired as insurgents to support themselves. And allowing the country to loot itself silly, destroying the economy and infrastructure.  A general finally got smart and left Iraq to the Iraqies, supporting the Iraqs that would support US and Iraq as a whole. But a prejudicial idiot was left in charge of Iraq. And Obama idiotically just pulled out completely, the Sons of Iraq had all their support withdrawn, including pay, they were targeted and killed too. Translators who helped the US, people who informed for the US, all sorts of people were left high and dry to die, and not provided shelter, because of their country of origin, because of the place on the map they were born on. And people have learned not to trust the US to provide support when it's needed.

 

     Now let's compare to the comic, they have the Rose knights, and their military, powerless to intervene in the mistreatment and slaughter of their own people. They have political leaders, being rounded up and executed! The longer Japan waits, the less there is to do. They are sitting around and watching the infrastructure they need to resolve the situation peacefully, being destroyed! Just like the US in Iraq. Not intervening when it's needed, not providing the support when its needed. They might as well just give up and go home at this rate, and leave the idiotic evil dictator to destroy the country because Japans leaders are too idiotic and spinless to get anything done, at least in the comic.

 

     And in the comic, a japanese citizen was rescued, and even warranted a warning shot. But a good peace supporting senator and a little girl who supports Japan and has political importance can't warrant being allowed sanctuary standing on the border of safety and at deaths door too, much-less anyone else. Japan being shown doing many of the stupid things that is the reason Iraq is still a mess. Well the US was never that stupid as to deny sanctuary to an important political child standing at the border of their compound. Yes they eventually caved, but they shouldn't need something like someone being a fiancee etc to do so, should have been a no brainer. "put everything at risk for" says one of the diplomats chapter 64 page 11 put what at risk? The only risk at this point of the story comes from inaction. What can they do if they continue to not act, that saving them puts in jeopardy? And even then, it's just the girl that is saved, and not the senator it seems. Personally I think most of this part of the story was to get that guy engaged to the little girl and treat it like the morale high ground.

 

And you want to compare US military intervention. Surely you are aware that Japan was formally an evil power bent on world domination, and formally the US military occupied Japan rather completely. And now look at it. 

 

       Iraq is a country with arbitrary borders (lines on a map that might as well been drawn by a drunk child) that encompasses some very different cultures and people. Muslim faith, which is plentiful in Iraq, is by nature militant and dictator like, completely intolerant of anyone outside of their particular version of faiths, (and multiple versions of the faith causing lots of conflict) especially the Islam types found in places like that. They have a outside force convincing the people that their faith should be so intolerant.

 

   Many conflicts are because of badly drawn national lines, and the sometimes just as asinine concept of national sovereignty.

 

      The empire inside the comic is very different. There is no insurgent culture, no muslim like faith that advocates dictatorship, slavery, death, ignorance. The empires people are not fractured anything like Iraq was even before the US entered. It was the dictatorship that kept Iraq together. The people of the empire in the comic. like Japan alot. Also, there is no road-side bombing technology. If Japan were to quickly sweep away these sweepers AKA secret police and their evil idiotic leader quickly before all the good political leaders are killed, there would be no reason to occupy at all.

Even if all they have are just old bolt-action rifles,

When did they have even that? I miss a chapter where they were armed with bolt action rifles? I haven't seen any of the sweepers carry such weaponry.

 

If anything, I think Japan is still too reckless. A diplomatic station was bombed out of nothing but emotion-driven vengeance. How's it those Imperial guards' fault that Zorzal took a Japanese woman as a sex slave?

 

      I don't recall it being a diplomatic station that was bombed, I think you got that wrong. It was a warning shot, an unoccupied building. And that warning shot might be the reason Zorzal is still allowing Japan and his sister and her immediate people, to still have their own bit of safety.
 
 

The most interesting plot development I've seen in this manga thus far is Tyuule's budding feelings for that Japanese "chef". I expected more intrigue, more exploration of topics like the horrors of asymmetrical warfare

 

     There has been no asymmetrical warfare so far. So no forum to explore horrors of something that has yet to be. Sure, evil dictator has used some evil underhanded tactics to gain control with his secret police. But it's not warefare if Japan isn't fighting back.

 

and PTSD.

 

      Because of the blood bath when Japan first arrived? Otherwise no reason for any of these soldiers to have PTSD. Besides, those soldiers were never even in the smallest bit of danger, and were able to obliterate these people from so far, they didn't need to see it up close. PTSD is usually an accumulation of stress, and not caused solely by one incident. Also, only a small amount of soldiers even needed to participate in that massacre.

 

Things like cultural contamination

 

    Usually mostly a nonsensical concept, belonging in the same category as human racial purity. The proper phrase here to use is cultural exchange, which has been going on since there has been humans. It's only contamination when the culture being exchanged is vile, like conservative arab style muslim faith. When you have people in the US mutilating their little girls genitals because that is what their culture did from the african etc countries they came from, that is "cultural contamination" if anything is, and should be stomped out. Otherwise, no such thing.

 

and tragic misunderstandings. How come no angry native has come yelling at the PX store because their baby died after they gave it twenty sleeping pills because it was crying?

 

While logically something like that is bound to happen. Why do we need to see that any more than to see the comic cover toiletry etc.? Yes, shit happens. But why include it in the comic?

 

    This comic is a tragic reminder of how excessive valuing of arbitrary lines on a map can get out of hand. Like that stupid meaningless border with the grass on the compound, in real life, because of arbitrary lines on a map, many things have been done or not done that have caused countless people to suffer.


Edited by truepurple, 01 June 2017 - 07:00 AM.


#4
Mythrrinthael

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Seeing that shot at the concept of Prime Directive, I already knew you didn't understand the point of my comment. Like, at all. Same with "Yeah, shit happens, but why include it in the comic?". Thanks for pointing out my mistakes with the MPs and the building, though I was so certain the native MPs did get rifles. I remember a panel in great detail, but it doesn't seem to exist. Memory is weird.

 

If "booru-bait" doesn't ring a bell, that's fine - it's very peculiar slang for fanservice.

Anyway, I'm expressing disappointment that this comic is taking a very easy route with depicting a counter-invasion of a force with a truly gargantuan technological gap, as well as every sordid consequence of said force occupying a region with vastly diverse peoples and interests. Expressing disappointment. Also, "Prime Directive" is only relevant insofar that lack of interference from a technologically superior force also means there are less complications/consequences for said superior force.

 

It's not about should/should not, it's about this whole thing being underwhelming to me because consequences do not flow from cause and effect but are put there or prevented from occurring by author bias. All stories do this, but it's painful to me with how it happens in GATE.

 

Your confusion of those horrors of war and elements I describe not being there? Yes, I know they're not there. That's my point - the plot is shallow for my tastes.

The author of the LN took the easy route. It's funny you've gone through that effort of laying out differences that aren't differences. Iraq being just a random scribble on the map that contained a wide variety of different tribes? That is indeed a major cause of the US fucking things up. Well geez, the geographical area that was conquered by the Empire while containing a wide variety of different tribes (of different races, no less) and were made slaves/second-rate citizens while putting them in one geographical area sure is different, huh? Hell, a main plot point of GATE is that Tyuule is trying to goad Japan into lining up the entire upper echelons of the Empire to the wall and shooting them in the head. Don't forget that attack by a previously trusted native on a rescued Japanese civilian.

 

No, definitely no insurgency culture or underlying socio-cultural stresses there at all. Nu-uh. And it's the sort of thing I would have liked to see much more of, instead of what it is now.

 

I want to see Japan dealing with a huge population that has no idea what to do because they're a huge mass of uneducated freed low-skill labor slaves. I want to see Japan be forced to deal with the consequences of an emerging secondary "black market" economy based around, I don't know, spent casings and smuggled Japanese items. Christ, I want Japan to shit a brick house after Lelei casually demonstrates magic.

 

If you're not going into how it violates the underlying properties of the world as we know it - and you don't always need to, because that's not exactly an easy topic - then I think it's a shame you're not at least spending time on how magic would change the society reliant on the purely material. That would've been real neat, you know?

 

    This comic is a tragic reminder of how excessive valuing of arbitrary lines on a map can get out of hand. Like that stupid meaningless border with the grass on the compound, in real life, because of arbitrary lines on a map, many things have been done or not done that have caused countless people to suffer.

Only if you're not particularly well-read, in my opinion. So far, the "out of hand" seems, to me, be a sequence of events out of an 80's patriotic American action movie. Bad things exist solely for the good guys to defeat/liberate. Not particularly tragic thus far, on a scale of things that could have happened quite easily.

EDIT: I keep thinking this is self-evident, and therefor I didn't actually write it down (though I touched on it slightly above), but I think you're really not seeing it: Japan is literally doing nothing to stop the bad things happening because if it did, the author would be done in half a novel. If this chapter seemed contrived and stupid as all hell, that's because it is. I was just being picky about how if you're going to artificially extend the story through stupidity, you might as well do it properly. Bureaucracy is (in)directly blamed for things that happen here but it's not executed well at all. Maybe the LN puts more nuance on the politics on Japan's side, but from what I'm hearing that is not the case.


Edited by Mythrrinthael, 01 June 2017 - 11:39 AM.


#5
truepurple

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The sweepers aren't military police(which is what MP stands for, unless you mean something else, then please explain), they are most akin to secret police. A corrupt organization depending on carrot and sticks to make a network of spies for everyone to inform on everyone else in case anyone isn't towing the states propaganda line, with draconian punishments for anyone who steps out of line. MPs are just army self regulating, very different.

 

Your accusations about my ignorance are false BTW.
 
Yes, the empire is made up of different nations, but the empire is much more like ancient Rome than Iraq (in many ways). In ancient Rome, they would conquer a people, but any conquered people could become regular Romans. War slaves can buy or earn their freedom. They would get the respect and personal freedom of any other Roman. Rome did not attempt to micromanage control people. As long as you swore obedience to the state, and didn't cause trouble with your neighbors, you were mostly free to worship any god you like, in any way you like, use any form of entertainment. Rome provided technology of clean drinking water, plentiful food with irrigation systems, baths, Colosseum for entertainment, freedom of religion and prosperity, safety and rule of law, relative freedom from discrimination-all Romans were just Romans. Romans even had a basic system of representation for taxation and how the state spent its dollars. People had senator outlets for expressing outrage against outrageous taxes, or to request assistance etc. Romes culture consumed all others and made those cultures its own. And clearly the empire allows subservient nations too, as much a coalition of nations as a empire. Obviously with some outliers like the rabbit people, clearly some racism against beast peoples.
 
Places like Iraq, there was no real identity of Iraqian or whatever. Dictators like Asama had no interest in unifying people, in fact, tensions and differences were used to distract people from fighting against the state.

 

And look, a more complicated social and governmental structure would be nice, I agree with a number of things you said in your last post.  but the author is clearly unable or unwilling. I just want actions to fit with what IS shown. And what IS shown are a people that would not fall into rebellion and chaos the moment this evil dictator and head of sweepers guy and his people are defeated. And it would be super easy with the technology and knowledge gap. They clear these clowns out before they kill all the good guys from the previous government, and the empire becomes stable and peaceful, the girl would have right to ascend to the throne and could rule very well.

 

So what is Japan waiting for? Again,they beat us over the head with this concept that they are letting him and his sweepers have their way because they want to safeguard a better solution in the future, what better solution? What could possibly happen if the high level politicians have their way and Japan sits on their hands eternally? What possible opportunity could come along that these clowns would say "see, this is the opportunity we are waiting for"? Dictator boy is not going to change his mind. But if the peace supporters are all killed, then the only solution would be japan occupying the empire.

 

I would also point out that Japan is not currently occupying any peoples! They set up camp on a empty hill away from any towns, a town sprang up around them with people who wanted to be there for obvious reasons. And again, if they act fast while the peace loving good government peoples are still alive, there is no reason to occupy after they drive these bad guys out.


Edited by truepurple, 01 June 2017 - 04:44 PM.


#6
Mythrrinthael

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I edited my comment a bit before you posted as I realized I was going off of a mutual understanding about the story that didn't exist. You might want to read the bottom of that post, it provides the second half of your question (the first half you already know: "unwilling or unable") about why he doesn't do what you'd like to see nor what I would like to see happening in the story.

 

I didn't call you ignorant, I "accused" you of misunderstanding my intention. That's not an accusation of ignorance, it isn't meant to be and I don't think you are.

 

When I said "MP with rifles", I was thinking about the native police force that was patrolling the area with the PX store, not the Empire's "sweepers".

The Empire is not like our historical Roman empire we knew. Halfbreeds in the Empire are generally discriminated against by the elites. It's why this one guy had an entire household staff of nothing but halfbreeds - he was sympathetic to their plights. This, in combination with the simple factor of time after the Empire is deposed and the conquered people are no longer held together by singular rule, means that what I said about the several factors that create circumstances for something like Iraq to happen again is not baseless. People are liberated, they try to pick up their old culture again - and you get clashes once more as incompatible parts cause friction.

You are also not really addressing that a lot of foreign lands enslaved by the classical Roman empire never were able to have any significant part of its population able to buy their freedom. It happened, but the majority could not get enough money for it. For good reason to the Romans - they relied on slavery to sustain production.



#7
truepurple

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If they wanted to extend the story, get another nation from earth involved (not the US, manga authors really seem to look down on the US as a easy scape goat). If they were getting support from say China or North Korea on the sly, the situation would quickly become more complicated. Right now it's a fricken holding pattern, the stories not moving at all! Well the little girl being allowed in was some small movement, but still.

 

There is other story they could do, Like this death god thing, advanced technology isn't much use against a god. Or imagine if the magicians banded together to start their own country and exclude Japan.  Maybe they make a new portal and that is how China or North Korea gets involved. Perhaps the dragons get pissed and come in force at the request of the death god for being turned down.

 

Or imagine if the idiot dictator wasn't a idiot,and was actually onto bunny queens plot, but wanted to use it. So no sweepers, lots of subtle movements and manipulations of each other and others to get what they want.

 

This is stuff I thought up in like  5 minutes, plus stuff you said too was good, seriously, the author can't do better than this?!? I enjoyed it early on. After they got the dragon, it was just downhill from there I think. Well the puppet assassin and magic city was interesting.


Edited by truepurple, 01 June 2017 - 05:27 PM.


#8
truepurple

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So I'm watching this battle between forces right in front of the embassy, and thinking, they left these diplomats without modern armed guards?!? And then I see ch65 p24 bottom right frame https://vatoto.com/reader#612e383b73dc8303_24*forehead slap* So they just stood around and let the slaughter happen? What would be required for them to actually fire?!? Though this reminds me of stores I've heard of UN guards who just sit around as slaughter happens in front of them because they don't have instructions to engage. But this isn't the UN, this is the vaulted Japanese defense force (can't remember exact acronym)


Edited by truepurple, 22 July 2017 - 02:32 PM.


#9
truepurple

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CH 67 page 26 "The masses believed the theory to be a mistake because it would destroy the world." How is the theory that the world is a sphere, possibly be considered by anyone as potentially destroying the world?

 

In RL, the opposition to such theories never came from the masses, at least not from angry mobs with protest signs (signs?!?)  But from religion who's doctrine was threatened in a more direct and obvious way.

 

So the thing he was talking about from the internet, was just how to make gunpowder? I thought at first they were talking about the existence of the internet or something. And why does he see no problem with her sharing how to make deadly weapons?