13 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

Why not befriend that boy in the beginning where he hears him listening to a old song? Even if in secret. Like he does with the girl. The answer that comes to me is that he isn't a cute girl.

 

And it occurs to me that he is pretty attached to popularity, considering how much he sacrifices for it.  Considering his athleticism and good looks, the other kids that drag him along with stuff and maybe consider him a friend, would not just completely reject him because he likes old stuff, especially with them having considered him friend for some time now. At the very least he would not have to worry about being bullied.

 

So besides old stuff, he cares about being as popular as he can, is willing to overlook bullying, and only wants friends that specifically provide him some immediate benefit or another (like continuing his popularity or being a love interest) He's portrayed as a kind person, yet the rest doesn't add up to that to me. I think this is just a failing in the authors writing. Author clearly wants him to be a nice person, just wrote in some giant plot/character holes that say otherwise.

[deathbahamutxxx]

Ootaki is the way he is because of people rejecting his hobby like they did that kid in the first chapter. Small things like that can have a huge effect on kids. That's natural for a kid his age. Highschool is a shark infested ocean of hormones and angst.

 

As far as overlooking bullying that is very common. No one wants to stick their neck out and become a target themselves. And the level of bullying in this manga isn't something that an authority figure would even care about. It is more teasing than it is bullying. You say that Ootaki wouldn't have to be worried about being bullied but sometimes just having a hobby that isn't mainsteam is enough to get you ostracized by your peers in highschool.

 

As far as why he didn't reach out to the other kid? The hobbies are different. Ootaki likes stuff from the 80s and the kid likes Vocaloid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocaloid Vocaloid is something from the 2000s so there a lot of style difference. It would be like if a kid likes 80s pop music and another kid liked dubstep.

 

I think Ootaki is a kind person. Is he a paragon of virtue and righteousness? No. But for a teen who just wants to fit in and has an odd hobby I think he does well.

Edited by deathbahamutxxx, 01 May 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[truepurple]

Upon reexamination,I think I kinda jumped to a conclusion or two considering how much of a bullying problem Japan apparently has based on many comics and how frightened that kid was.

 

Yeah, I don't know the names etc of music stuff. I appreciate you giving be a better understanding of that part of the story.

 

On the other hand, how about that time before he knew her where he destroyed that picture thing, just to keep up appearances of someone who doesn't like or understand older stuff, and not willing to tolerate it. That wasn't very nice. As far as he knew, that could have been a item valued alot by the other person, maybe was, she was wary of him afterwards.

 

You say that Ootaki wouldn't have to be worried about being bullied but sometimes just having a hobby that isn't mainsteam is enough to get you ostracized by your peers in highschool.

 

OK, but why should Ootaki worry about being ostracized? He has been shown not to enjoy any of the activities they bring him to, especially since he has to hide what he really likes. And if I had friends that were so superficial that they would drop me and even ostracize me based on knowing I liked X or Y.  I mean he already is feeling alone, even when they drag him with to stuff, at least in your worser case scenario of them ostracizing him (which I don't buy would happen) then he has more time for the stuff he does like.

 

I read a comic where a young girl MC was very obsessed with all wrestling stuff (the fake kind, WWE type). Her friends knew, and didn't share her interest, and would tease her in a friendly way when her obsession with wrestling showed, but they were still her friends.  Are you saying that is unrealistic that it can't be like that with Ootaki, especially considering that he has people who have considered him friend for some time, his good looks, and athleticism? Surely those three aspects would be enough on their own to give him some latitude in liking something they consider oddball. Especially if he still joins in some of their activities and doesn't push his likes on them.

 

Let me ask you personally, Deathbahamut, if you were back in highschool, and someone you considered a good friend showed interest in a hobby that you and most of the class considered unpopular/uncool, would you ostracize this person you called friend and hung out with on a daily or at least weekly bases?

Edited by truepurple, 01 May 2017 - 08:37 PM.

[deathbahamutxxx]

On the other hand, how about that time before he knew her where he destroyed that picture thing, just to keep up appearances of someone who doesn't like or understand older stuff, and not willing to tolerate it. That wasn't very nice. As far as he knew, that could have been a item valued alot by the other person, maybe was, she was wary of him afterwards.

 

He didn't destroy the bromide. He denied it was his but then confronted Yakushimaru with the bromide to ask if she was the one who put it in his desk.

 

 

OK, but why should Ootaki worry about being ostracized? He has been shown not to enjoy any of the activities they bring him to, especially since he has to hide what he really likes. And if I had friends that were so superficial that they would drop me and even ostracize me based on knowing I liked X or Y.  I mean he already is feeling alone, even when they drag him with to stuff, at least in your worser case scenario of them ostracizing him (which I don't buy would happen) then he has more time for the stuff he does like.

 

I read a comic where a young girl MC was very obsessed with all wrestling stuff (the fake kind, WWE type). Her friends knew, and didn't share her interest, and would tease her in a friendly way when her obsession with wrestling showed, but they were still her friends.  Are you saying that is unrealistic that it can't be like that with Ootaki, especially considering that he has people who have considered him friend for some time, his good looks, and athleticism? Surely those three aspects would be enough on their own to give him some latitude in liking something they consider oddball. Especially if he still joins in some of their activities and doesn't push his likes on them.

 

You sort of answer your question in the first part with the reference to the bullying in Japan. Ootaki doesn't like the things the people around him like. He doesn't want to do the things they do. In fact for the most part it doesn't seem like he engages the people around him at all. It isn't that Ootaki wants to get along with everyone so much as he doesn't want to make waves. He doesn't want to be the target so that's why he hides what he likes and goes with the flow when he has to. At this point I believe Yakushimaru is his only actual friend.

 

 

Let me ask you personally, Deathbahamut, if you were back in highschool, and someone you considered a good friend showed interest in a hobby that you and most of the class considered unpopular/uncool, would you ostracize this person you called friend and hung out with on a daily or at least weekly bases?

 

No idea because this situation would have been the opposite of what I was in. I was already into "nerdy" things like D&D, video games and was a heavy metal kid in a highschool where sports, especially Football, were king. So my circle of friends were the outcasts anyway. If the positions had been reversed I would be a different person than I am so who knows how I would have reacted. I just know from my highschool experience how little it takes to be ostracized. 

[truepurple]

I remember him crumpling it up into a ball, but don't feel like looking through it and trying to find it.

[deathbahamutxxx]

The whole point of chapter 7 of this manga was that he still had the card and it went into a flashback of why Yakushimaru got the card in the first place.

[arimareiji]

OK, but why should Ootaki worry about being ostracized? He has been shown not to enjoy any of the activities they bring him to, especially since he has to hide what he really likes. And if I had friends that were so superficial that they would drop me and even ostracize me based on knowing I liked X or Y.  I mean he already is feeling alone, even when they drag him with to stuff, at least in your worser case scenario of them ostracizing him (which I don't buy would happen) then he has more time for the stuff he does like.

Mayuko said it well in Fruits Basket (56:29) - being with someone to try to dispel loneliness only increases it.

 

...well, so much for that bright idea. I was going to post a tagged image, but apparently images aren't allowed here (or at least, both PNG and JPG get the error message "That image extension isn't allowed in this community").

[truepurple]

deathbahamutxxx:

You sort of answer your question in the first part with the reference to the bullying in Japan. Ootaki doesn't like the things the people around him like. He doesn't want to do the things they do. In fact for the most part it doesn't seem like he engages the people around him at all. It isn't that Ootaki wants to get along with everyone so much as he doesn't want to make waves. He doesn't want to be the target so that's why he hides what he likes and goes with the flow when he has to. At this point I believe Yakushimaru is his only actual friend.

Again, so it sounds like you are saying he hangs with them and hides his interests from them so they don't bully him. But I see no reason for him to worry about that, all things considering.

 

Let me ask you personally, Deathbahamut, if you were back in highschool, and someone you considered a good friend showed interest in a hobby that you and most of the class considered unpopular/uncool, would you ostracize this person you called friend and hung out with on a daily or at least weekly bases?

No idea because this situation would have been the opposite of what I was in. I was already into "nerdy" things like D&D, video games and was a heavy metal kid in a highschool where sports, especially Football, were king. So my circle of friends were the outcasts anyway. If the positions had been reversed I would be a different person than I am so who knows how I would have reacted. I just know from my highschool experience how little it takes to be ostracized. 

 

Show some imagination please. For you and your friends, sports were unpopular/uncool. So for you the question becomes, if you found out one of your friends secretly adores football in all forms, playing it, watching it, knows pro-footballer names by heart, has posters and action figures of them.  Would you ostracize them for this? Let's say all your other friends ostracized this person simply for being a football fan, would you go along or would you stand up for them, still play & hang with them? Especially relevant with D&D because it requires a group, and if your other friends refused to play with them and by extension you because you wanted to play with your football fan friend, you might have to miss out on D&D. Or is the hypothetical of them ostracizing someone for being a severe football fan just too unrealistic for you? (the ostracizing, not the football fan part)

Edited by truepurple, 05 October 2017 - 10:30 PM.

[Dafortminor]

Please do not go off-topic, if anyone from this point goes off-topic they will be warned.

 

-Dafortminor

[deathbahamutxxx]

Again, so it sounds like you are saying he hangs with them and hides his interests from them so they don't bully him. But I see no reason for him to worry about that, all things considering.

 

 

Show some imagination please. For you and your friends, sports were unpopular/uncool. So for you the question becomes, if you found out one of your friends secretly adores football in all forms, playing it, watching it, knows pro-footballer names by heart, has posters and action figures of them.  Would you ostracize them for this? Let's say all your other friends ostracized this person simply for being a football fan, would you go along or would you stand up for them, still play & hang with them? Especially relevant with D&D because it requires a group, and if your other friends refused to play with them and by extension you because you wanted to play with your football fan friend, you might have to miss out on D&D. Or is the hypothetical of them ostracizing someone for being a severe football fan just too unrealistic for you? (the ostracizing, not the football fan part)

 

 

Japan has a very strong culture of conformity. Just recently there was a story of a Japanese student suing their school because they wanted her to dye her natural brown hair blonde. The dyes were giving her rashes. The school has a no hair bleach/dye policy but it was more important to the school and faculty for her to have black hair than her dyeing her hair. Teachers were telling her if she showed up with brown hair roots to not show up to class or school and if she didn't like dyeing her hair not to show up at all. One teacher went so far as to tell others the student dropped out. Students picked on the girl saying her brown hair was proof her mother cheated on her father. The only thing the school really had to say in it's defense is "If the student was foreign we would make them dye their hair black as well". 

 

The whole reason I bring up this recent event is to show you why Ootaki is afraid. He is scared that because he does not like what the other kids like. He likes things that other kids find lame. In fact earlier the kids were picking on the kid who liked Vocaloid. You thought Ootaki should be friends with him but I explained they were different music styles and music from different time periods as well. Vocaloid is a lot newer compared to the 80s stuff Ootaki likes. If they will ostracize a girl for her natural hair color, or a kid for liking music that went out of style 10 years ago they would definitely ostracize a kid for liking a style of music from before they were even born. 

[Haiyami]

Many people forget that this is not the west. As Deathbahamut said, he doesn't want to make waves. In Japan there is a real thing called "keeping the wa". Staying in line with the rest of the majority. Don't make waves. Read the atmosphere of everyone else. If the group likes the color white and you like the color black. You don't go out of your way to disturb the "wa". In Japan your response is to say "I like the color white" to go along with the group. Japan's society down to it's roots is in a sort of bee hive like mentality. Deathbahamut's last post about the girl getting bullied in school due to bleached hair is a great example. Conformity is a big thing. So it is very easy to happen to get bullied if you step out of line.

 

Japan is not the western countries. Western mentality does not work there.

[Racky]

Many people forget that this is not the west. As Deathbahamut said, he doesn't want to make waves. In Japan there is a real thing called "keeping the wa". Staying in line with the rest of the majority. Don't make waves. Read the atmosphere of everyone else. If the group likes the color white and you like the color black. You don't go out of your way to disturb the "wa". In Japan your response is to say "I like the color white" to go along with the group. Japan's society down to it's roots is in a sort of bee hive like mentality. Deathbahamut's last post about the girl getting bullied in school due to bleached hair is a great example. Conformity is a big thing. So it is very easy to happen to get bullied if you step out of line.

 

Japan is not the western countries. Western mentality does not work there.

Isn't that somewhat similar to Law of Jente? Let's not generalize and use Western mentality as magic word.

Edited by Racky, 01 November 2017 - 02:52 PM.

[truepurple]

Spoiler

Japan has a very strong culture of conformity. Just recently there was a story of a Japanese student suing their school because they wanted her to dye her natural brown hair blonde. The dyes were giving her rashes. The school has a no hair bleach/dye policy but it was more important to the school and faculty for her to have black hair than her dyeing her hair. Teachers were telling her if she showed up with brown hair roots to not show up to class or school and if she didn't like dyeing her hair not to show up at all. One teacher went so far as to tell others the student dropped out. Students picked on the girl saying her brown hair was proof her mother cheated on her father. The only thing the school really had to say in it's defense is "If the student was foreign we would make them dye their hair black as well". 
 
The whole reason I bring up this recent event is to show you why Ootaki is afraid. He is scared that because he does not like what the other kids like. He likes things that other kids find lame. In fact earlier the kids were picking on the kid who liked Vocaloid. You thought Ootaki should be friends with him but I explained they were different music styles and music from different time periods as well. Vocaloid is a lot newer compared to the 80s stuff Ootaki likes. If they will ostracize a girl for her natural hair color, or a kid for liking music that went out of style 10 years ago they would definitely ostracize a kid for liking a style of music from before they were even born.

 
DeathB, I already told you I appreciate and understand your point about the different ages of music.
 
     As for hair dying etc. You are conflating two seemingly similar but actually different topics. Lots of Japanese have excessive pride in Japanese, it's culture and people.  I see that over and over in comics and anime. The conformity of hair color is conformity in being Japanese. No one is going to take interest in old music and old Japanese culture as antiJapanese, if anything, it a nod to it, what could be more Japanese than love of old Japanese?  
 
    And the desire of Japanese adults for conformity is probably different than that of children. In adult world of Japan, conformity means the difference between work success or not, peoples livelihoods often depend on them conforming.  Complex social standing mechanisms exist in the adult world. I would imagine adults would want to indoctrinate children into this as much as they can "for their own good"
 
    And stuff like conformity represents discipline and control. If they control the small stuff, the big stuff naturally follows, seems to be the thinking. Like military thinking, the drill Sargent doesn't have the recruit clean the toilet or the floor with a toothbrush because toothbrushes are the best cleaning tool.
 
   Where as kids just want to fit in and be free of all that, yet of course not let their families down. So him fitting in with his friends, even knowing his likes of old stuff, would make sense.

Edited by truepurple, 04 November 2017 - 05:02 AM.

[truepurple]

       Plus, Japanese has a otaku culture ingrained everywhere. People with obsessions over particular subjects seem very Japanese, his "friends" may not share his obsession (if you even call it as far as obsession), but it would be strange for them to find him obsessed over something otaku style to be that abnormal to completely reject him and even turn on him, especially with him being a symbol of excellence in everything else. You can see that in this comic itself, and the many other comics that highly specialize in one specific topic. Bicycling, motorcycling, soccer, wrestling, boxing, ping pong, swordsmanship [and the sport one with the wooden swords], band playing, pianist, conducting,  kongfu of various types, writing, photography, old video games, gardening, farming, junk food snacks, insects, a specific type of old Japanese plays they did (forget the name) that is strictly male only,  old Japanese music and culture in general (hint hint) etc, etc. are just a few of the many topics I've seen in Japanese comics etc where the plot seems to be a excuse to get into the topic rather than a background and every chapter has that topic featured front and center and usually heavily glorified. Even more where the topic is more background to a story that doesn't necessarily always hinge on it, but still is pretty prominent in the story (for example "Again!!" and that scream cheering thing)

Edited by truepurple, 05 November 2017 - 10:25 AM.