12 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

I could only bear to read to chapters three or four and then skipped ahead and skimmed a bit. Why am I criticizing something I am not reading? Because this pretty bad comic is rated so good, so that I clicked on it when it surfaced in the rating list. And I made a comment questioning why people liked that, others asked me to say why. So here we are.

 

To get out all the issues with pokeman in general, that can't help but be a issue in a story based on them.

 

Pokemans are sentient battle slaves.. They are even imprisoned in little magical balls when not training or fighting.  Yet they are happy with this, they live for this. I take that back, they only live for this after being beat down and imprisoned in the balls, which apparently have a brain washing function. This is the brutality of gladiator battles conveniently minus the death and the gladiators being happy this being their lot in life. Kinda hard to root for someone swearing to be the best of the slave masters. Not only that, these gladiator battles are constant, almost only thing anyone thinks about is watching people battle to nondeath.

 

And then there is the issue that didn't come up in the chapters I read, but pokemon are used for meat too. There are no regular animals, all animals aside from humans are pokemon, even some plants. This means ALL meat is pokemon, and people have been shown to eat meat in this universe.

 

So, what does this leave us. Two people with dumb names of Green and Red (I know they got better names from the game, but everyone calls them these dumb names in the comic) , trying to out do each other. Why do I care who outdoes who? There is no motive that makes me care. It's just some competitive blood thirsty slave masters, I'm ok with both of them failing hard and becoming bi-lines in the tournament ranking. Unfortunately we all know Green and Red will face each other in the end and Red will pull a victory out of his ass as a underdog and MC, even those of us who know very little of pokemon story. It is made painfully clear very early on, heavy foreshadowing and all that.

 

And the battles themselves aren't interesting. Kinda have to take authors word that X works like this and Y works like that. So when Pikachu shoots lighting into tunnels once and it causes the opposing mole pokemon "to faint" even with it's supposed heavy Lightning resistance, we have to accept it. Not only is the dice loaded, but the path to the loaded destiny is  gibberish to me.

 

And there really isn't anything else. The comic just launches into battle after battle with some trash talk and "I will make it" talk and meet up with rival talk etc. oh and flattery of MC talk. Come on, give some plot! It's not plot, it's not character building,  it's not slice of life, it's just endless combat and combat related.

Edited by truepurple, 03 April 2017 - 08:29 AM.

[ActingRikka]

So you basically dislike the very core concept of pokemon , wich i will not argue as it is purely subjective and not a meter of judgement for a comic. As for the plot, i'll have you know that most of it is taken as granted from the video game, since it basically only covers the last part of reds Journey in kanto (but it takes into consideration various fan theories ) , and it could really be confusing for someone who didn't experience it beforehand. As for the battle not explaining what happens, as much as the comic really is depitched as realistic, it still keeps its game-like origins, a powerful electric attack can kill an highly damaged earth pokemon , so the outcome can very well be possible. Your other points were the battles and how uninteresting they were; still keeping personal preferences into consideration, the battles in this manga are well written and not at all predictable in my opinion taking misty battle as an example, misty using a quagmire and reds confusion leading to pikachu being KOed for example, or starmies surf comboes with lighting were all well executed and drawn to an above pro level, even the pacing of the battle since fights are not dragged for more than they need to , and one of the most important thing is the opponent that feels like a threath, instead of a punching bag. As for your issues with battle after battle, keeping in mind pokemons game desing and reds aspiration to be the best fighter (wich will obviously lead to battle after battle) we are in the pokemon league, the place where the elites 4 resides, of course the manga will be incentered in battles, it could be another story if he stared from the beginning, but he didn't (for red at leas, still excited for gold). And to finish my argument , the author does a really good job at developing characters in the little time (8 ch) he has, developing the plot where it reslly counts (since as i said, it really is taken granted from the video game, so far he's just doing some touches , really good one , here and there). And last reminder, he's not an hired manga artist, he's doing this as an hobby, and he's doing a far greater job than most professional manga artists.(not english here, hope it got across)

Edited by ActingRikka, 03 April 2017 - 10:08 AM.

[Jouzea]

You have problem with the pokemon itself it seems go look for some other manga, i guess. As for your criticisms with the plot, mechanics of the story itself, i respectfully disagree to all of them. Many people will also agree that the characters seem to be more fleshed out than say the games, or even the anime. If you don't see it that way then this manga isn't for you.

[Raydnt]

So basically, its not the manga, but Pokemon itself you have a problem with.
This manga is for pokemon fans, so if you're not a pokemom fan yourself, you wont really understand why this manga is so great.
This manga gives what the game, anime and other pokemon manga does not.
An actual fleshed out story of Red, the first generation protagonist and the people around him, making use of the plot and theories from the games to enrich the story and tweaking them a bit to make it more interesting.

I would go on to list more detailed reasons, but you wouldnt understand anyways since because you have a problem with the very concept of pokemon, you probably arent familiar with the other forms of media.

[truepurple]

a powerful electric attack can kill an highly damaged earth pokemon.

 

Even if you are right, (no idea myself)  it wasn't "highly damaged", I went back and reread the battle. It used a fourth of its HP to create a decoy (someone in comments praised it for avoiding using video game jargon in a non-video game world) and got its claw cracked when it hit Pichachu's iron tail. Even if we call the loss of health from decoy "damage",  little less then three quarters health is nothing like "highly damaged"

 

Also, I would assume a earth type would also have heavy resistance against earth damage? If the ground exploded, that is what it would be.

 

 It would take a insane amount of electricity to cause the ground to explode even a little bit. If Pichachu has a electrical attack powerful enough to cause ground to explode, wouldn't it be better if it attacked directly? Then it could just one hit KO everything, though the battles would be pretty boring then. Lightning bolts, the emperor of electrical attacks, don't even cause ground to explode like that. But what about the fissures? Nothing in reality would cause fissures to make ground explode like that from electricity where it wouldn't otherwise.  Author says this is how things work, so that is how it works, even if nothing from reality or the game or even preestablished in story world rules, backs it up.

 

one of the most important thing is the opponent that feels like a threath, instead of a punching bag

 

Ok, there is that. Author avoids drawing out battles, keeping them succinct.  Definitely a strong point in the authors favor. I'd take drawn out battles where I care who wins and the battle stuff makes sense to me, over this though.

 

Many people will also agree that the characters seem to be more fleshed out than say the games, or even the anime.

 
That very well might be true. But what a low bar to set. There are countless JCRPGs with more interesting story. Pokemon may be fun, but do many people really play it for it's plot? It's a collections game, it's even its tag/sales phrase "gotta catch em all". You play it to collect and upgrade.

 

As far as the "anime", it's dumber than most US based "cartoons".Story with similar richness to Biker mice from mars or Thunder cats. 
 

This manga is for pokemon fans, so if you're not a pokemom fan yourself, you wont really understand why this manga is so great.
This manga gives what the game, anime and other pokemon manga does not.
An actual fleshed out story of Red, the first generation protagonist and the people around him, making use of the plot and theories from the games to enrich the story and tweaking them a bit to make it more interesting.

 

Fair enough. I've watched a few episodes of the anime. Saw part of a movie once. Played bits of two or three of the games borrowed from friends (not counting Pokemon snap, a nice game, but zero plot) Clearly not qualified to appreciate this comic (not sarcastic)

 

It's unfortunate that the batoto comic ranking system can't separate out such a specialized interest from more generally good reads. Also, comments should reflect that you need to be a Pokemon fan in order to appreciate the comic, that's a big use of comments, letting people know what they are in for (not spoiling things by talking about the plot like is often done...)

Edited by truepurple, 03 April 2017 - 07:01 PM.

[ActingRikka]

Damage taken from previous fight( lapras ex.), copycat used and a final smash from a pickachu could lead to a KO, If you read it throughly, pickatchu used some kind of move ( an attack i honestly don't recognize) to blast the ground and uncover sandslash( he didn't take damage apparently(rock type and all), he was just confused), and then proceeded to hit him staright in the head with a powerful blow, making him faint. It seems legit to me honestly. Quick edit, i misunderstood earth and rock types, messed the translation a bit, my bad

Edited by ActingRikka, 03 April 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[Knight K]

Even if you are right, (no idea myself)  it wasn't "highly damaged", I went back and reread the battle. It used a fourth of its HP to create a decoy (someone in comments praised it for avoiding using video game jargon in a non-video game world) and got its claw cracked when it hit Pichachu's iron tail. Even if we call the loss of health from decoy "damage",  little less then three quarters health is nothing like "highly damaged"

 

Also, I would assume a earth type would also have heavy resistance against earth damage? If the ground exploded, that is what it would be.

 

 It would take a insane amount of electricity to cause the ground to explode even a little bit. If Pichachu has a electrical attack powerful enough to cause ground to explode, wouldn't it be better if it attacked directly? Then it could just one hit KO everything, though the battles would be pretty boring then. Lightning bolts, the emperor of electrical attacks, don't even cause ground to explode like that. But what about the fissures? Nothing in reality would cause fissures to make ground explode like that from electricity where it wouldn't otherwise.  Author says this is how things work, so that is how it works, even if nothing from reality or the game or even preestablished in story world rules, backs it up.

first it received a HydroPump to the face, even if the pokemon take over it weakness, still took one of the strongest water attacks there is, then the decoy, and having one of it claws damaged ... how can you not call that "highly damaged"

 

what happened to the explosions, is that the stars from swift exploded from the lighting it wasn't only the attack itself that destroyed everything and it used the space made by fissure, that it was already cracked ... then as Rikka said, an Iron Tail to the head before it could even react from the shock of the explosion (Iron Tail is also a high Steel type attack). You are just trying to nitpick a single battle that it was pretty well done.

 

 

That very well might be true. But what a low bar to set. There are countless JCRPGs with more interesting story. Pokemon may be fun, but do many people really play it for it's plot? It's a collections game, it's even its tag/sales phrase "gotta catch em all". You play it to collect and upgrade.

 

As far as the "anime", it's dumber than most US based "cartoons".Story with similar richness to Biker mice from mars or Thunder cats. 

the thing is many people like the pokemon franchise and would love to see a more mature approach, like Pokemon Adventures the manga that is pretty well liked, I don't play to collect them all, I play 'cause it's fun, it's just that simple.

 

 

 

Fair enough. I've watched a few episodes of the anime. Saw part of a movie once. Played bits of two or three of the games borrowed from friends (not counting Pokemon snap, a nice game, but zero plot) Clearly not qualified to appreciate this comic (not sarcastic)

then why are you doing it anyways??

 

 

It's unfortunate that the batoto comic ranking system can't separate out such a specialized interest from more generally good reads. Also, comments should reflect that you need to be a Pokemon fan in order to appreciate the comic, that's a big use of comments, letting people know what they are in for (not spoiling things by talking about the plot like is often done...)

it's a good read, I appreciate the system, because it allowed me to find this, I don't search for every Pokemon related story, but I like when I found one, it has a good ranking because a lot of people think is good, and that's why other people (not neccesarily fans) found it and can like it or not, it's not like every manga in the ranking part has to be made for everyone. For example it has Jojo right now (part 7), but you don't see people critizicing that?

the tittle says it's Pokemon, it already says for itself that if you are a fan you will appreciate the work more.

 

ps: talking about dumbnames with colors when your nick is truePurple, it's kind of ironic, don't you think.

Edited by Knight K, 04 July 2017 - 10:42 PM.

[truepurple]

     I analysed one battle as a example for how I didn't think the battles were done that good. It's a dishonest way of arguing when you dismiss it and the detail I put into it with "nitpicking". As far as responding to your analyses, too much time has past since I read it, and I don't plan on rereading it just to give you a proper reply.
 

I don't play to collect them all, I play 'cause it's fun,

 

     Whether collecting is what makes it fun for you, or something else, you are ignoring the main/only real point in what I was saying, Pokeman does not typically have good story, thus a low bar to improve upon.  Unless you are saying you find the game fun because of its plot, but you didn't say that.

 

Clearly not qualified to appreciate this comic

why are you doing it anyways??

 

     I'm not appreciating it, I would think that was obvious and that you already knew this except for this strange comment?

 

For example it has Jojo right now (part 7), but you don't see people critizicing that?

 

     I'm not sure what exactly your saying. I haven't read seventh series Jojo or whatever because 1-3 or 4 were not good enough to use my time to read them.  But Jojo doesn't require one to be into a particular video game or something to appreciate the story, you either like it or not.

 

talking about dumbnames with colors when your nick is truePurple, it's kind of ironic, don't you think.

 

Not in the least. There is a famous native american named Sitting bull.  Alot of traditional native american names went like this, a verb and a animal/noun.  Now imagine if his name was just "Sitting", or Just "Bull".  Imagine if his name was "Redskin" and the president of US at the time was named "Whiteskin", no, imagine if there was a story that named them such.  Green and Red are dumb names, Truepurple isn't even close to the same thing, even if it also involves color (such excessively simplistic reasoning you are showing here) Also, you do realize that Truepurple is not how I am called in RL, right? Just as I bet few go around calling you "Knight K", in your RL

Edited by truepurple, 05 July 2017 - 05:07 PM.

[Dreamingflower]

When you keep stating these arguments while misspelling Pokemon every time, it makes it hard to take them serious.

Every person is different some people like football, others find it stupid and prefer to play video games and other like both. People don't care about filling their pokedex. They just like to get the Pokemon they like, make their dream team and see them grow and evolve while beating the game and lot of the games has improved a lot since gen 1. Sun/ Moon is my overall favourite plotwise and I can't wait to try USUM.

Also Red and Green are their actual names in the games. Doesn't matter if they sound stupid to some people. Just because that's their opinion doesn't mean that it is stupid. It's just a game, fiction, taking place in an alternate world with different morals it's kinda stupid to compare it to the values we grew up with.

All the others already stated it: this is a doujin, it's target group are Pokémon fans. That non-Pokemon fans don't like it isn't much of a surprise.

[Knight K]

     Whether collecting is what makes it fun for you, or something else, you are ignoring the main/only real point in what I was saying, Pokeman does not typically have good story, thus a low bar to improve upon.  Unless you are saying you find the game fun because of its plot, but you didn't say that.

even if it's a low bar, some things still stay with the events of the game and it depends in how can they be presented as a real story is what makes them good in the manga adaptation, like Pokemon Special or Pokemon Origins (ex. team rocket fight or cubone's case, even Gary/Green's Raticate).

 

The problem for you is not the plot but Pokemon itself, this doujin clearly shows a plot, the rivalry of Green of Red (btw ... the thing with the names, you know that in Japan they are people named Aka, Aoi, Midori, Sakura, etc ... colors) and it shows how they grow and for what reason they're rivals, what's the problem with that??

 

 

   1-  I'm not appreciating it, I would think that was obvious and that you already knew this except for this strange comment?

 

 

     2- I'm not sure what exactly your saying. I haven't read seventh series Jojo or whatever because 1-3 or 4 were not good enough to use my time to read them.  But Jojo doesn't require one to be into a particular video game or something to appreciate the story, you either like it or not.

 

1- my mistake there, confuse the concept of appreciate with appraisal (or evaluation)

 

2- my point is that Jojo part 7 or 8, you have to at least know the past story, 'cause they are referencing the lineage of the Joestars, and they tend to talk about past events, and it's the same with Pokemon, like you say: you either like it or not (you clearly don't) ... and you were talking about the ranking system of batoto, that's why having more than one series that is for people that like a franchise is not a problem. 

[truepurple]

I don't think so, it's not needing to know the previous story because of ongoing nearly as much as having to be able to be a fan where you ignore glaring issues with the base story that carry on to supplementary stories based on it. There is also helping to know some of the game mechanics like attacks and so on that the comic refers to and uses. There is no story I need to know to appreciate this comic really, mosty of its simplicity is already very clear.

 

What reason  they are rivels? Please, there is no real reason given. The reason is the ultra simplistic "Everyones got to be the best pokemon slave master, and I see you as my biggest competition"

 

This author might have made the best of what they had to work with, but I bet it would have been better if they had abandoned the source material a bit. And judging it based on the standard of graphic novels, this story is nothing. This story is just a series of battles and talk that excuses more battles, those are a dime a dozen, and usually done better.

Edited by truepurple, 05 July 2017 - 06:47 PM.

[ActingRikka]

I don't think so, it's not needing to know the previous story because of ongoing nearly as much as having to be able to be a fan where you ignore glaring issues with the base story that carry on to supplementary stories based on it. There is also helping to know some of the game mechanics like attacks and so on that the comic refers to and uses. There is no story I need to know to appreciate this comic really, mosty of its simplicity is already very clear.

What reason they are rivels? Please, there is no real reason given. The reason is the ultra simplistic "Everyones got to be the best pokemon slave master, and I see you as my biggest competition"

This author might have made the best of what they had to work with, but I bet it would have been better if they had abandoned the source material a bit. And judging it based on the standard of graphic novels, this story is nothing. This story is just a series of battles and talk that excuses more battles, those are a dime a dozen, and usually done better.

I'm starting to think you're trolling. Either you're completly dismissing our arguments or you simply don't understand i don't know;the problem resides in the fact that , while having superficial knowledge about a subject ( you obviously dislike) , you take your opinion not as a personal preference , but as an undeniable objective trurth. We should just drop this whole argument because it became kind of useless, we've basically came down not to a review of a comic , but to a debate of personal preferences.

Edited by ActingRikka, 06 July 2017 - 03:59 PM.

[fisty]

It's a doujin. If you don't like the source material then don't read it. Doujins are made for fans. Nobody's paying the author to do this. It's a passion project. I hate Fairy Tail for a long list of reasons, so I don't read Fairy Tail doujins because I know I wouldn't enjoy them.