14 replies to this topic

[Horian]

Hello, regulars.

 

Here is my question. At the end of the Workshop battle, SIU gave us hints about the arc that would follow it (the Hell Train). Supposing that he'll do the same a the end of this BIG arc that is the Hell Train, how do you think ToG will be organised from now on ?

 

What do I mean by origanisation ?

 

- ToG might have 3-4 parts following SIU's words. We are in the middle of this fantastic tale. Knowing that the last floor is the 134th, how do you think the story will be organized ? What arcs will we have ? Will Part 3/4 be long ? How do you guys see ToG's end ?

 

What SIU has yet to tell us ?

 

I don't know about you all, but I have the feeling that this 2nd part will cover most of the mysteries the Tower has yet to offer : Baam's origins, the Princesses of Jahad, and maybe the Prince of Jahad.

 

SIU has developed an incredible universe but apart of this, I don't see any topic worth making all the fans of the manhwa making theories all the time like we are all doing now while talking about the Prince, Baam's origins and all this stuff...

 

Maybe I'm worrying for nothing, but this part 2 seems to answer all the mysteries part 1 showed us.

 

In fact, I'm asking how you think the story will take place after this arc will be finished. I know that it is difficult to answer the question, cause this arc is just starting, and we can't imagine all the consequence it will have on the cast...

[Date Palm]

SIU seems to have fallen into the usual successful storyteller pacing trap where arcs get longer and longer and longer.  But there is no way that he will reveal everything, or even most things, before the climax.  He plays the long game. Remember S1?  That ending raised more questions than it answered.

Yeah, we've had a long time where it felt like we were stuck on Namek, and that will happen again for sure, but the payoff will (probably) be worth it.

[Horian]

SIU seems to have fallen into the usual successful storyteller pacing trap where arcs get longer and longer and longer.  But there is no way that he will reveal everything, or even most things, before the climax.  He plays the long game. Remember S1?  That ending raised more questions than it answered.

Yeah, we've had a long time where it felt like we were stuck on Namek, and that will happen again for sure, but the payoff will (probably) be worth it.

 

I don't agree with you. Certainly the arcs keep getting longer, but that's because SIU has something to tell worth. He does not like doing lenght for lenght, he even said it in one of his blog post, that every comic should have its own lenght, and that lenght is different from quality.

[Date Palm]

If you don't think the pacing of this comic has suffered, well... the Hell Train has already run longer than the entirety of S1.  If you're fine with that, I'm happy for you.

[Horian]

If you don't think the pacing of this comic has suffered, well... the Hell Train has already run longer than the entirety of S1.  If you're fine with that, I'm happy for you.

 

The question is not the pacing just for the pacing... If it bores you, then ok, but it doesn't bore me, because even if it is long, each chapter makes you wait for the next without failing.

[Thanos]

If you think about it, there are very few milestones that have already been introduced and where Baam might wish to stop by either during his climb or once he becomes a Ranker: 2F (been there, done that), 43F (already there), wherever Enne is sealed off, wherever Enryu is located, wherever FUG HQ / Lustec is located, Wolhaiksong on 77F, Karaka's fortress on 97F, Arie Hon's extra test on 100F, Repellista's castle on 123F, and Zahard's castle on 134F (?). If I'm not mistaken, this covers locations that must make an appearance at some point, though it doesn't mean SIU cannot add ad-hoc locations (e.g., 20F, wherever Workshop Battle took place, Hell Train, Name Hunt station, etc.).

Seeing these, you can notice that there is a potential to skip almost 60 Floor after the 43F, because--even if Baam visits Wolhaiksong during his climb--it's possible if not preferable to include this in the timeskip in the same way as Baam's FUG training. In other words, it's possible that once Part 2 is finished, Part 3 resumes either when Baam is approaching some of the location that are on unknown Floors, or once he's approaching 100F--I really doubt Baam would visit Karaka as soon as he reaches 97F.

That said, the main factor is whether SIU plans to have the story ultimately culminate at the end of Baam's climb (i.e., there is going to be no "after Baam becomes Ranker story"), or whether SIU plans to have Baam complete his climb within the Zahard Empire and then sort out the remainder of the plot. If it's the former, then the timeskips between Parts are going to be relatively short, because it's unlikely that there would be such a huge Floor gap with no interesting content. However, if it's the latter, then the upcoming timeskips can be really huge, because Baam can revisit the skipped locations when the time is ripe.

Edited by Thanos, 15 February 2017 - 12:59 PM.

[Horian]

If you think about it, there are very few milestones that have already been introduced and where Baam might wish to stop by either during his climb or once he becomes a Ranker: 2F (been there, done that), 43F (already there), 1° wherever Enne is sealed off, 2° wherever Enryu is located, 3°wherever FUG HQ / Lustec is located, Wolhaiksong on 77F, Karaka's fortress on 97F, 5° Arie Hon's extra test on 100F, 6° : Repellista's castle on 123F, and Zahard's castle on 134F (?). If I'm not mistaken, this covers locations that must make an appearance at some point, though it doesn't mean SIU cannot add ad-hoc locations (e.g., 20F, wherever Workshop Battle took place, Hell Train, Name Hunt station, etc.).

7° : Seeing these, you can notice that there is a potential to skip almost 60 Floor after the 43F, because--even if Baam visits Wolhaiksong during his climb--it's possible if not preferable to include this in the timeskip in the same way as Baam's FUG training. In other words, it's possible that once Part 2 is finished, Part 3 resumes either when Baam is approaching some of the location that are on unknown Floors, or once he's approaching 100F--I really doubt Baam would visit Karaka as soon as he reaches 97F.

That said, the main factor is whether SIU plans to have the story ultimately culminate at the end of Baam's climb (i.e., there is going to be no "after Baam becomes Ranker story"), or whether SIU plans to have Baam complete his climb within the Zahard Empire and then sort out the remainder of the plot. 8° : If it's the former, then the timeskips between Parts are going to be relatively short, because it's unlikely that there would be such a huge Floor gap with no interesting content. However, if it's the latter, then the upcoming timeskips can be really huge, because Baam can revisit the skipped locations when the time is ripe.

 

1° : Why would he want to go where Enne is sealed ? She's supposed to be a freakin monster that'd be able to kill both him and his friends. She's one of the strongest woman (and one of the strongest) in the Tower. I know that Baam is a really nice boy, but I do not think Garam will ask him to free her or anything. Garam came to her to ask her questions about the Princesses, but they are not close at all, and so, I don't see Baam going to free her on his own, nor anyone asking him to do it. If one would be crazy enough to free her, it would be Mazino, cause he wouldn't have much to fear, as strong as he is.

 

2° : That, contrary to your previous location, could be an interesting quest for Baam. He might receive a hint on Enryu's location, maybe while going into the Hall of Souls on the FoD, where all the Souls are stored (cause I think the FoD arc will end there with White's ressurection and a big brawl between everyone, but that's another matter). Moreover, Enryu and Baam seem linked to each other (Baam being the God of the Outside incarnated in flesh, and Enryu one of his messengers, if not his only). They also look alike. So, a short arc on chasing Enryu would be possible...

 

3° : Maybe when he'll deal with FUG himself. It would be possible, since in this arc, HJS could play an important role, SIU even said that he would be more developed later. In a FUG arc, maybe.

 

4° : Those 2, I am not sure. Baam will certainly meet Mazino again on this arc epilogue, so they won't need to make him go to the 77th floor. As for Karaka, he can't wait for Baam going strong enough to invade his castle or he'll be dead for sure. Karaka knows it too well, after HJS came to see him there.

 

5° : That's just a test, not an entire arc, or a goal in itself for Baam. Moreover, no one in the 10F knows who he is, and in the Jahad Empire, only the craziest and most paranoid members of it (Jahad's enforcement division) were aware of his existence. If they just sent Ren, it means that they don't really care...

 

6° : Not sure about Repelista, but Baam will certainly reach Jahad's castle.

 

7° : That would be quite big... That would also mean that Part 3 and 4 would be focused on 30 floors (100 - 134).

 

8° : Well, yeah, from here on, you can just speculate, but I don't think that there will be more after Baam become Ranker, because my opinion on ToG's end is that Jahad's system will be destroyed, and the word "Ranker" won't mean anything. But Baam VS Jahad will be the last thing we'll see of ToG, IMO. A battle that'll shake the Heavens themselves, while the 10F will be wrecked out by FUG and Mazino will lead an exodus out of the Tower.

 

But we have to integrate 2 arcs into this near-future : those were confirmed by SIU in his blog posts (well confirmed I don't know, but he spoke of them = Jahad's Princesses Arc and Khun Family Arc)

[Thanos]

1° : Why would he want to go where Enne is sealed ? She's supposed to be a freakin monster that'd be able to kill both him and his friends. She's one of the strongest woman (and one of the strongest) in the Tower. I know that Baam is a really nice boy, but I do not think Garam will ask him to free her or anything. Garam came to her to ask her questions about the Princesses, but they are not close at all, and so, I don't see Baam going to free her on his own, nor anyone asking him to do it. If one would be crazy enough to free her, it would be Mazino, cause he wouldn't have much to fear, as strong as he is.

There are SO MANY potential reasons that I cannot quite understand your doubt on this point. Getting their hands on Colourless December; getting more information from Enne or at least verifying some points passed on by Garam; seeing about Enne's insanity (i.e., since it has been induced by Zahard, it might be undone by an Irregular or Arlen's "special spell" that Baam might pull out of his hat); someone of the lot might even be interested in mercy-killing Enne; Rachel might plan to release the insane Enne into the Tower and our lineup is going to attempt to stop her; etc. etc.

As for being able to kill Baam and his friends, that's true, and so it is for Yuri, Evan, Garam, and pretty much any other High Ranker--and many ordinary Rankers--that our lineup has encountered thus far.

Moreover, knowing Baam's personality, it's less that "people would have to give Baam a request to go see Enne" for him to go there, and more like "people will have to try and dissuade Baam from going to see Enne" to stop him from going there. It would be quite out of character for Baam to ignore someone in Enne's situation.

5° : That's just a test, not an entire arc, or a goal in itself for Baam. Moreover, no one in the 10F knows who he is, and in the Jahad Empire, only the craziest and most paranoid members of it (Jahad's enforcement division) were aware of his existence. If they just sent Ren, it means that they don't really care...

It's "just a test" that may have multiple parts, take ages to complete, and / or have a lot of surrounding preparations. Not to mention that the test itself is just one facet of what is likely to transpire on 100F, let's not forget that there is also the main plot (that is currently being revealed) and 100F is the heart of Arie Family as well as where one can encounter Arie Hon.
 

6° : Not sure about Repelista, but Baam will certainly reach Jahad's castle.

Repellista is a trove of information and a schemer that reunited Yuri and Baam; they might be curious as to "why".

But we have to integrate 2 arcs into this near-future : those were confirmed by SIU in his blog posts (well confirmed I don't know, but he spoke of them = Jahad's Princesses Arc and Khun Family Arc)

Well, both the Princess arc and the "Koon arc" can take place anywhere, because no location has been specified (yet). In other words, if SIU chooses to put Princess Arc in Part 2, they are going to meet on and shortly after FoD; if he chooses to put it in the Part 3--assuming the timeskip is indeed huge--then they are going to meet closer to 100F; dealer's choice, and it's basically the same with the "Koon arc" since we don't even know which Floors are under Koon's rule.

[Horian]

There are SO MANY potential reasons that I cannot quite understand your doubt on this point. 1° Getting their hands on Colourless December; getting more information from Enne or at least verifying some points passed on by Garam; seeing about Enne's insanity (i.e., since it has been induced by Zahard, it might be undone by an Irregular or Arlen's "special spell" that Baam might pull out of his hat); someone of the lot might even be interested in mercy-killing Enne; 2° Rachel might plan to release the insane Enne into the Tower and our lineup is going to attempt to stop her; etc. etc.

As for being able to kill Baam and his friends, that's true, and so it is for Yuri, Evan, Garam, and pretty much any other High Ranker--and many ordinary Rankers--that our lineup has encountered thus far.

Moreover, knowing Baam's personality, it's less that "people would have to give Baam a request to go see Enne" for him to go there, and more like "people will have to try and dissuade Baam from going to see Enne" to stop him from going there. 3° : It would be quite out of character for Baam to ignore someone in Enne's situation.

It's "just a test" that may have multiple parts, take ages to complete, and / or have a lot of surrounding preparations. Not to mention that the test itself is just one facet of what is likely to transpire on 100F, let's not forget that there is also the main plot (that is currently being revealed) and 100F is the heart of Arie Family as well as where one can encounter Arie Hon.
 
5° Repellista is a trove of information and a schemer that reunited Yuri and Baam; they might be curious as to "why".

Well, both the Princess arc and the "Koon arc" can take place anywhere, because no location has been specified (yet). In other words, if SIU chooses to put Princess Arc in Part 2, they are going to meet on and shortly after FoD; if he chooses to put it in the Part 3--assuming the timeskip is indeed huge--then they are going to meet closer to 100F; dealer's choice, and it's basically the same with the "Koon arc" since we don't even know which Floors are under Koon's rule.

 

1° : Baam is not interested in gathering the 13th Months even if it is "his destiny" or something like that. If it has to be done, it'll be more like the n°2. Asking for Enryu, I wonder... But if I were him, when you compare cost/advantages/risk, it's not worth (but I know that Baam is not rationnal, but Khun is, at least).

 

3° : No. Baam can also ignore people in need. How many Regulars did he trample on to pass his tests as Jue Viole Grace ? Baam only takes pity in people he met beforehand, like, he fought Kaiser, took pity in her, and freed her. He'll not take the decision to free Enne before even meeting her, because of what Garam says on her. I don't think Baam is THAT altruistic.

 

4° : Yeah, but I don't see Baam provoking the whole Arie family just because he's FUG or because of his origins. I mean, it's not like Baam likes taking unnecessary risks. He boarded the Hell Train because he needs the other fragment of the Thorn to stabilize his.

 

5° : This is still a theory, that is very likely to happen, but I don't see Baam asking Yuri who warned her of his arrival, and so, learning about Repelista.

[Thanos]

1° : Baam is not interested in gathering the 13th Months even if it is "his destiny" or something like that. If it has to be done, it'll be more like the n°2. Asking for Enryu, I wonder... But if I were him, when you compare cost/advantages/risk, it's not worth (but I know that Baam is not rationnal, but Khun is, at least).

I believe you're forgetting that Baam isn't the only person in his group; if "Baam not being directly involved with something" is enough to explain where Baam does or doesn't go, then SIU would never plan stuff like Koon and Princess arcs, since Baam is neither Koon--nor desires to take over Koon Family--nor is he a Princess or much cares for their competition.

3° : No. Baam can also ignore people in need. How many Regulars did he trample on to pass his tests as Jue Viole Grace ? ...

He had to choose between "make some people fail the test", which is inevitable while climbing, and "have his friends die" because he didn't comply; you haven't thought this one through.

The rest is also not quite true, even in the Kaiser example, while Baam did indeed first meet Kaiser and then developed sympathy for her, there was actually no relation between the two. It was Alphine's exposition of Kaiser's story that fostered the sympathy, not anything Baam learnt from or while meeting Kaiser. In the same way, now Baam has been told of someone who was mislead into believing something, then made to go insane, and ultimately sealed off for ages; I doubt there is more needed to get his sympathy, though it's entirely possible that the other revelations take precedence and Enne's fate is never brought up again.

4° : Yeah, but I don't see Baam provoking the whole Arie family just because he's FUG or because of his origins...

Who said anything about Baam provoking the Arie Family?

5° : This is still a theory, that is very likely to happen, but I don't see Baam asking Yuri who warned her of his arrival, and so, learning about Repelista.

Everything here is still a theory. As for how would Baam end up at Repellista's castle, Yuri may lead him there "because she might know something", it doesn't have to be Baam who determines the destination, the important bit is that Baam ends up at the destination if the story is focusing on his experiences.

[Horian]

1° : I believe you're forgetting that Baam isn't the only person in his group; if "Baam not being directly involved with something" is enough to explain where Baam does or doesn't go, then SIU would never plan stuff like Koon and Princess arcs, since Baam is neither Koon--nor desires to take over Koon Family--nor is he a Princess or much cares for their competition.

2° : He had to choose between "make some people fail the test", which is inevitable while climbing, and "have his friends die" because he didn't comply; you haven't thought this one through.

The rest is also not quite true, even in the Kaiser example, while Baam did indeed first meet Kaiser and then developed sympathy for her, there was actually no relation between the two. 3° : It was 3° : Alphine's exposition of Kaiser's story that fostered the sympathy, not anything Baam learnt from or while meeting Kaiser. In the same way, now Baam has been told of someone who was mislead into believing something, then made to go insane, and ultimately sealed off for ages; I doubt there is more needed to get his sympathy, though it's entirely possible that the other revelations take precedence and Enne's fate is never brought up again.

4° : Who said anything about Baam provoking the Arie Family?

5° : Everything here is still a theory. As for how would Baam end up at Repellista's castle, Yuri may lead him there "because she might know something", it doesn't have to be Baam who determines the destination, the important bit is that Baam ends up at the destination if the story is focusing on his experiences.

 

1° : I don't think neither Khun nor Rak would be interested in waking up one of the biggest threats of the Tower, that could possibly kill them the moment she wakes up, but hey, we don't know how SIU will plan this all, so that's just me theorising.

 

2° : That's right.

 

3° : You're right again. But contrary to Garam speaking about Enne briefly, it was clear that Kaiser was a special person to Alphine, and that she was honest with herself. Kaiser's story is more something that you can empathize with, rather than Enne's. I mean, she might not be crazy, but she did go on rampage with her 13 months in hand. Kaiser seems way more human than Enne, and having someone to emphasize that fact like Alphine was an important aspect to drive Viole to the conclusion of saving her. Because in fact, Kaiser was abused by her family, she is a victim. Enne is not totally one from what we actually know.

 

 

4° : Well, the fact is, for Arie Hon to make Baam passing his test would mean him knowing of Baam's status, that we don't know if he does and if he'll know at the moment Baam will access the 100th floor. We don't know anything about the 10GW and Jahad current state and their knowledge regarding Baam.

 

5° : Sure, but right now, I don't see how he could know about Repelista other than Yuri...

[Thanos]

I believe we've settled most of the points, so here comes likely the last set. =)

1° : I don't think neither Khun nor Rak would be interested in waking up one of the biggest threats of the Tower, that could possibly kill them the moment she wakes up, but hey, we don't know how SIU will plan this all, so that's just me theorising.

I'm pretty sure that neither Koon nor Rak would willingly go to the FoD if it were up to them, yet here we are (except for Rak, who may or may not be dead--it's SIU and Rak, so probably alive)! Also, it's possible that Baam is simply lead to where Enne is sealed instead of going there intentionally in the first place.

3° : You're right again. But contrary to Garam speaking about Enne briefly, it was clear that Kaiser was a special person to Alphine, and that she was honest with herself. Kaiser's story is more something that you can empathize with, rather than Enne's. I mean, she might not be crazy, but she did go on rampage with her 13 months in hand. Kaiser seems way more human than Enne, and having someone to emphasize that fact like Alphine was an important aspect to drive Viole to the conclusion of saving her. Because in fact, Kaiser was abused by her family, she is a victim. Enne is not totally one from what we actually know.

It's true that Enne isn't a special person to Garam, but--contrary to Kaiser--she actually has some significance to Baam's story, not to mention that there is still Gustang--Enne's father--who seems to be following / watching out for / manipulating Baam's climb.

Also, while it may be difficult to be empathetic when it comes to Enne's story, it's much easier to be sympathetic with Enne then with Kaiser. As far as the "sane Enne" goes, she has been shouldering high hopes of two Great Families and made both of them proud during her climb, and she managed to do so while being known for a pacifist personality. Afterwards, Zahard stabbed her in the back (or brain--to be precise), she went mad and eventually on a rampage, and eventually ended up sealed off. In other words, "sane" Enne--which should be the main focus for Baam--has yet to show something one can badmouth, and even "insane" Enne on her rampage has likely affected fewer lives than Kaiser during her 1000 years at the Name Hunt station. And to top it all off, Enne has been imprisoned for ages for something Zahard has done to her, while Kaiser was still relatively well-off at the station, and has now regained her freedom--assuming Jinsung hasn't done anything underhanded.
 

5° : Sure, but right now, I don't see how he could know about Repelista other than Yuri...

As I mentioned before, Baam doesn't have to even know about Repellista in order to end up at her doorstep. It could be Yuri who leads him there "because she knows someone who may know something", it might even be Hwa Ryun who leads him there for one reason or another, it could be that Repellista leads Wangnan--with or without Baam--to her castle since she seems interested in the Zahard Prince plot-line, and there is more. The reason I put Repellista's castle as a milestone is because she clearly is important and recurring part of the story; that's pretty much it.

[Horian]

So you globally think that the next arcs will be oriented towards a destination, like the FoD one ? I mean, it could also be games, like the Workshop Battle. There was one Blog Post about maybe doing some kind of 2nd Workshop Battle, but it'd be very unlikely, but I'm sure I read it somewhere in the Blog Posts. We still have to wait for the consequences of this arc to plan something else, but Khun Family and Jahad's Princesses are definitely planned. I want to see Eduan ahah.

 

 

1) I believe we've settled most of the points, so here comes likely the last set. =)


2) Also, while it may be difficult to be empathetic when it comes to Enne's story, it's much easier to be sympathetic with Enne then with Kaiser. As far as the "sane Enne" goes, she has been shouldering high hopes of two Great Families and made both of them proud during her climb, and she managed to do so while being known for a pacifist personality. Afterwards, Zahard stabbed her in the back (or brain--to be precise), she went mad and eventually on a rampage, and eventually ended up sealed off. In other words, "sane" Enne--which should be the main focus for Baam--has yet to show something one can badmouth, and even "insane" Enne on her rampage has likely affected fewer lives than Kaiser during her 1000 years at the Name Hunt station. And to top it all off, Enne has been imprisoned for ages for something Zahard has done to her, while Kaiser was still relatively well-off at the station, and has now regained her freedom--assuming Jinsung hasn't done anything underhanded.
 

 

2) I'm more convinced by FUG going to liberate her to let her loose and go on rampage and Baam going too because Rachel is there to liberate her and he fears her death, or something like that, rather than her being important to Baam's story. I mean, he doesn't need to go see her, he has Garam and Arlen's pocket as an information source, so in that way I don't understand how she could be useful. But our cute baby face 'Ole could definitely pity her and go save her... He definitely likes danger, this kid.

 

1) I agree. Now, we'll have to wait. Thks for contributing. I am very interested on the structure of ToG itself as a story. It was definitely nice to discuss about how could SIU fill the 2 remaining parts.

[Thanos]

So you globally think that the next arcs will be oriented towards a destination, like the FoD one ? I mean, it could also be games, like the Workshop Battle. There was one Blog Post about maybe doing some kind of 2nd Workshop Battle, but it'd be very unlikely, but I'm sure I read it somewhere in the Blog Posts. We still have to wait for the consequences of this arc to plan something else, but Khun Family and Jahad's Princesses are definitely planned. I want to see Eduan ahah.

In a way, though it's less of a terminal destination (like 2F was for Part 1, and FoD may be for Part 2) and more of a milestone. This doesn't mean there cannot be other destinations and games in between or even as part of those destinations. Also, since there are far too many noteworthy destinations for each to be considered terminus for a Part if there are meant to be only one or two more Parts, it's possible that some destinations on my list are going to be nothing but milestones, while one or two (or even something else) end up being terminus of a Part.
 

I mean, he doesn't need to go see her, ...

If he's to liberate the Tower, he is going to need the key to the Tower, and Colourless December is going to be needed for that. Well, and if Colourless December happens to be sealed in the same place as Enne, then it's likely that Baam is going to end up interacting with Enne regardless of his desire--or lack thereof--to do something about her situation.

Edited by Thanos, 16 February 2017 - 03:53 PM.

[Horian]

In a way, though it's less of a terminal destination (like 2F was for Part 1, and FoD may be for Part 2) and more of a milestone. This doesn't mean there cannot be other destinations and games in between or even as part of those destinations. Also, since there are far too many noteworthy destinations for each to be considered terminus for a Part if there are meant to be only one or two more Parts, it's possible that some destinations on my list are going to be nothing but milestones, while one or two (or even something else) end up being terminus of a Part.
 
If he's to liberate the Tower, he is going to need the key to the Tower, and Colourless December is going to be needed for that. Well, and if Colourless December happens to be sealed in the same place as Enne, then it's likely that Baam is going to end up interacting with Enne regardless of his desire--or lack thereof--to do something about her situation.

 

Just need to find the Maze now ^^' (only Garam, out of the characters we have seen, knows where it is)