31 replies to this topic

[Jeff_Hangman]

It's you, Aereus, who exacerbated the situation. It's you who brought out all the drama. It's you who wouldn't let it die. The major discussions boards I visited to talk about Boku Girl was plagued with your nonsense.

 

Maybe you should do everyone a favor and accept the fact that there are people who don't care. In the end, it's the readership that suffers. Sure, you may have promoted Boku Girl a lot, but I've never heard of it from you. It became clear months ago that you wanted to keep the series for yourself since you were condemning another user that used your live TLs, and also the fact that you had a name attached to all of your posts.

 

You painted them as a criminal in public before working things out with them. You ruined their love with your hate instead of showing support.

 

I'd rather have someone who was an unskilled and talentless hack make new releases. Their quality may be bad, but they have more heart and more drive to keep the series in reader's mind than someone like you.

 

And to think, I thought being on 4chan would've taught your a thing or two about internet culture.

Take my advice. Chill out. Stop jumping to conclusions. In the end, it makes you, and the mods, look like villains more than heroes.

 

In short, it's your attitude that everyone dislikes. You may be doing something wonderful, but that attitude of yours draws a veil right over it.

[svines85]

Spoiler

It's you, Aereus, who exacerbated the situation. It's you who brought out all the drama. It's you who wouldn't let it die. The major discussions boards I visited to talk about Boku Girl was plagued with your nonsense.

 

Maybe you should do everyone a favor and accept the fact that there are people who don't care. In the end, it's the readership that suffers. Sure, you may have promoted Boku Girl a lot, but I've never heard of it from you. It became clear months ago that you wanted to keep the series for yourself since you were condemning another user that used your live TLs, and also the fact that you had a name attached to all of your posts.

 

You painted them as a criminal in public before working things out with them. You ruined their love with your hate instead of showing support.

 

I'd rather have someone who was an unskilled and talentless hack make new releases. Their quality may be bad, but they have more heart and more drive to keep the series in reader's mind than someone like you.

 

And to think, I thought being on 4chan would've taught your a thing or two about internet culture.

Take my advice. Chill out. Stop jumping to conclusions. In the end, it makes you, and the mods, look like villains more than heroes.

 

In short, it's your attitude that everyone dislikes. You may be doing something wonderful, but that attitude of yours draws a veil right over it.

 

Ah, one more brat with delusions of entitlement weighs in, awesome

 

Just had to specially register here so you could have yourself a little hissy fit in front of us, eh? Yup, outstanding, real mature, buddy.

 

Wow, I sure have heard some horror stories about that 4chan place, I'm sure as hell glad I don't go there

Edited by svines85, 06 October 2016 - 07:18 PM.

[Aereus]

Last comment I'll make on all of this:

 

It's not that I want to keep it "for myself" it's that literally every single one had absolutely zero scanlation experience. They wanted to take it, use whatever random JP>CN>Thai scans they found online and recompress it a 4th time using block text in MS Paint default font. And every single time they uploaded first and asked questions later, if at all. Includiing this time, where it was some kid who was well-meaning, but ultimately as merely copying the images over and doesn't possess the skills to scanlate.

 

And this happens again. And again. And again. And again. So yes, I default to being a bit touchy about it.

Had any actual group or staff came forward, I would have worked something out with them, like how I even gave BokuBoy all the magscans for his practicing.

 

What this taught me is to just never release an unchecked script online again in the future.

[Master_Aricitic]

This will also be my last comment (unless someone else decides to comment and I decide to respond.

 

I am sorry. I never meant for things to go this far. I was just so bewildered at how viewpoints on two nearly identical situations could be so different. Had no one ever said anything, or had "what's his name" declared he was removing it because you contacted him, I would never have brought this up. Other things happened, I found them hypocritical, so I said something.

 

It's not that I want to keep it "for myself" it's that literally every single one had absolutely zero scanlation experience. They wanted to take it, use whatever random JP>CN>Thai scans they found online and recompress it a 4th time using block text in MS Paint default font. And every single time they uploaded first and asked questions later, if at all. Includiing this time, where it was some kid who was well-meaning, but ultimately as merely copying the images over and doesn't possess the skills to scanlate.

My comment about keeping it to yourself was more on a legal - fair use act - basis than anything else. Personally, I am glad that you want to release your translations, but I have to restate that in doing so you are not protected by the fair use act, and are in violation of... well, blah, blah, blah... The only reason for THAT in the first place was to so that by not asking permission from the mangaka/publisher you were, in effect, doing the same thing as 'that kid.'

This point has either gotten across, or won't (again, if someone else comments, I may try to explain, but at this point, I'm just harassing you, NOT my intention).

 

And this happens again. And again. And again. And again. So yes, I default to being a bit touchy about it.

Had any actual group or staff came forward, I would have worked something out with them, like how I even gave BokuBoy all the magscans for his practicing.

And the publisher's probably think the same thing - almost verbetum: "Damn westerners thinking they want with..." anyway, I've said it enough. Either the point has been received or it will not be.

Personally, I'm grateful to you and other translators. If it weren't for most of you, we would never get to read most of these. Realistically, I doubt the mangakas care since they are getting paid for the releases in Japan... Heck, they're probably either completely ignorant of it, or are grateful as well - for the self-same reason you mentioned earlier. - the publishers, not so much until some English Publishing company uses the popularity at one of 'these sites' to decide to officially bring it to the US.

But, you are still conspiring to break copyright... (anyway, I'll stop with that)

 

 

No, the ONLY reason for this was to point out the similarity, and there is undeniable similarity, between what 'that kid' did and what scanlators do. If 'permission' is the issue then one side cannot claim to be in the right if they didn't do their own 'rule' themselves.

Again, I.DON'T.CARE if you or other translators get it or not. I understand how hard that is. I'm only pointing out a violation of rules that are violated to get the translation in the first place.

Whether you, or any other translator gets permission or not is entirely up to that individual. I'm not going to start going around informing hosting websites about violations of copyright. (I considered it, but that would be petty and would be utterly against what I am trying to do...)

 

 

I do respect what you and (most) other scanlators do. I really do. I just couldn't sit by while I perceived someone being petty based on a perceived violation - I completely agree it IS a violation, but if this were a court case I'm pretty sure they would get off with a warning, and you would be the one the case would focus on - against someone who made a major violation. That's it. It has nothing to do with anything else you did or said.

 

 

On a final note, releasing things (on the internet) is fine. But I would strongly suggest password protecting them. In the event that you are working with a (based on your words) novice again like Boku Boy and want to share the translation with them, and view what they do, create a shared Google doc/drive folder that is password protected or that only you two/three/#number# have access to. This way if some random outsider gets hold of the 'link' they cannot access it anyway.

This should prevent it from being leaked before you believe it is ready, and would protect your documents with Fair Use... but do be advised that Google, and any other, had the responsibility to remove documents that violate copyright. When you do eventually release the document, if that location catches that these documents are... well... they will have to remove it. BEFORE you release it, you can claim 'Fair use' "Academic/educational use" and prevent the documents from being deleted.

 

Anyway, I'm going to drop this here. I am sorry for the harassment, I just was stunned at the paradox in what was being said in done. I've said what I wanted to say (and kept out what I really shouldn't, oh boy...) and if my point didn't get across... it won't.

 

 

 

Last comment (and formatting): svines85, I do have to agree with you on that. But please do understand that most of us didn't understand the full situation. I sure as hell didn't, and am very appreciative that Aereus was kind enough to tell me. I was angry for wrong reasons. My point is valid, but I didn't understand the situation in full. I doubt most others did either.

Also, Aereus, where did you post your reasons. I know you did, but I cannot find the original explination (me thinks it was deleted with the purgening...)

Edited by Master_Aricitic, 07 October 2016 - 07:25 PM.

[FrostAyy]

Ah, one more brat with delusions of entitlement weighs in, awesome

 

Just had to specially register here so you could have yourself a little hissy fit in front of us, eh? Yup, outstanding, real mature, buddy.

 

Wow, I sure have heard some horror stories about that 4chan place, I'm sure as hell glad I don't go there

 

 

I've been reading some of your comments in this thread. And Christ, are they ever embarrassing to read. You aren't this insufferable in real-life, are you? Please tell me you don't expose your family and friends to this awful personality.

 

Edit: Just realized you're a 30 year old man with 13,370 posts on a manga website. Everything makes sense now.

Edited by FrostAyy, 09 October 2016 - 09:31 PM.

[svines85]

Spoiler

I've been reading some of your comments in this thread. And Christ, are they ever embarrassing to read. You aren't this insufferable in real-life, are you? Please tell me you don't expose your family and friends to this awful personality.

 

Edit: Just realized you're a 30 year old man with 13,370 posts on a manga website. Everything makes sense now.

 

Fair enough, you've got a perfect right to your opinion.......I couldn't possibly give a fuck less about your opinion of me if I tried to, but still, you've got a right to have it (and to shoot your mouth off with it in a dead thread too I suppose) if it makes you happy.

 

Master_Aricitic said they wanted to drop this topic, which is fine by me, I dropped it three days ago out of courtesy to the OP.  FrostAyy, why don't you do the same and just walk away.

[Eksentrysyti]

Showed up here just out of curiosity and wow...

 

TL;DR

 

Master Aricitic thinks he's the shit with some twisted logic.

 

He has a problem with this:

Main scanlator takes Author's work, translates it, distributes it.  Sub-scanlator releases a lower quality version of main scanlator's work, who asks that distributor removes it.  Distributor removes work from site.

Master Aricitic thinks that main scanlator has no right in asking distributor to remove the work since it isn't owned by main scanlator.  The only one with rights to do anything with the work is the author.

 

He has no problem with this:

Master Aricitic doesn't like that distributor removed the work since he shouldn't have any rights to do so.  Master Aricitic will go to another site where he can freely peruse content where any random sub-scanlator took content and dumped it on the internet without credit since they don't own the rights to the work anyway.  Since one wrong doesn't make a right, two wrongs should make a right.

 

Also Master Aricitic, no one gives a shit about some foreign play that someone at a university your step-father works at translated with permission.  He's a better person than us, fine.  Don't pretend you're on higher moral ground when you're going around reading manga provided by people who practically volunteer their time, get abused by the community's trash (like you) and feeling like you're entitled to it, simply because the scanlators don't own the content.  And pretending that the so-called content that YOU produce is worth anything.

 

*Funny how people think they produce anything of value when they don't.  How could they, when they spend days posting ridiculous essays on how great they are.  At least you're doing us all a favor by leaving.  Oh, and no one actually cares you're leaving, so don't bother posting that you are.  We really don't give a shit.

 

*PS: Really, we really, really don't give a shit.

[Master_Aricitic]

Master_Aricitic said they wanted to drop this topic, which is fine by me, I dropped it three days ago out of courtesy to the OP.  FrostAyy, why don't you do the same and just walk away.

I stopped my argument with Aereus because I decided it was going nowhere. People don't read what I post, they read what they want and react. I spent a minimum of one hour posting them - one was three hours - so that I wasn't simply being reactionary, and was actually putting thought into what I posted, and, as with the next person, people simply skimmed what I said, took from it what they wanted, and replied back...

 

Master Aricitic thinks he's the shit with some twisted logic.

 

He has a problem with this:

Main scanlator takes Author's work, translates it, distributes it.  Sub-scanlator releases a lower quality version of main scanlator's work, who asks that distributor removes it.  Distributor removes work from site.

Master Aricitic thinks that main scanlator has no right in asking distributor to remove the work since it isn't owned by main scanlator.  The only one with rights to do anything with the work is the author.

First: so far as I read, until I started explaining my shock, I never saw that the translator actually asked the uploader to remove it. Had that been posted this would never have happened. I don't even care that it was removed, what bothers me is the demonization that is being thrown around with such hatred.

Second: yes, I am insisting that only the author... and the publisher... are the only ones who own any actual right to the works or anything they produce, unless direct permission is given.

This doesn't mean that I am demonizing the translator for doing what they did. Not at all, I respect and am grateful for what they did. ALL of the examples that I pushed were to show that legally, there is no difference from someone who takes from something official without permission and someone who takes from something not official without permission... well, with the exception of the original being 'from something official' and the latter being 'from something unofficial.'

Nor am I saying that Aereus doesn't (or, really, since legally they don't) shouldn't have any rights to their translation. This is inaccurate. They should have rights to it. What they should not do is demonize someone who, legally, is doing the same thing they started. This has little to do with morals, although we could go into morals, but more about a legal standpoint. That's why it is so laughable.

And, a-fucking-gain if Aereus had  actually asked the uploader to remove it - which the uploader said they would do if asked - and this was posted somewhere - I would have never started this...

 

He has no problem with this:

Master Aricitic doesn't like that distributor removed the work since he shouldn't have any rights to do so.  Master Aricitic will go to another site where he can freely peruse content where any random sub-scanlator took content and dumped it on the internet without credit since they don't own the rights to the work anyway.  Since one wrong doesn't make a right, two wrongs should make a right.

Again, firstly, there was no indication, that I could find, that it was the 'distributor' who removed the posts. No comment, no thread, nothing but missing chapters and people reacting in shock and outrage. Sure, I should have asked first... but isn't that the entire problem with this situation?

And again, we go into 'rights' and 'not rights.' Are you talking legal or moral? If you're talking legal than you are factually incorrect, but only because you are going from Aereus' perspective. If you are talking moral... well, my ...moving on... there are entire college courses on this. One person can argue their morals and another can argue their morals. Morals are effectively opinion. They're a nice set of code to follow, but when it comes to legal code morals mean virtually nothing. The best a set of morals can do for you in a courtroom is get you the insanity plea...

Any argument I made regarding morals before was an attempt to say "That's nice. If arrested, you would still go to jail."

My morals are no better than anyone else's... baring the fact that I am not demonizing either the uploader nor Aereus. I'm just pointing out my shock and the irony of the demonization that is being done.

 

Also Master Aricitic, no one gives a shit about some foreign play that someone at a university your step-father works at translated with permission.  He's a better person than us, fine.  Don't pretend you're on higher moral ground when you're going around reading manga provided by people who practically volunteer their time, get abused by the community's trash (like you) and feeling like you're entitled to it, simply because the scanlators don't own the content.  And pretending that the so-called content that YOU produce is worth anything.

 

*Funny how people think they produce anything of value when they don't.  How could they, when they spend days posting ridiculous essays on how great they are.  At least you're doing us all a favor by leaving.  Oh, and no one actually cares you're leaving, so don't bother posting that you are.  We really don't give a shit.

 

*PS: Really, we really, really don't give a shit.

And I don't give a shit that you don't give a shit.

I used the example of the private college student doing the legal translation to show it is possible to get legal and viable permission to not only translate, distribute, but to also profit from your efforts, even if you are not a financial corporation - which the student was not.

I used the example of my works - which you are right, the recent works are not getting any comments. I don't know if this is because I set up the website incorrectly or not. I've certainly gotten more than 160 views... but the ones from 2006 had plenty of comments and a small following, so with respect to those, your "nobody gives a shit" is factually incorrect -

I used the example of my works as another example of legal rights in practice.

 

Aereus didn't get permission. Legally, this matters, realistically, this doesn't - unless the publisher comes after them. What's-his-name didn't get permission either. Legally this doesn't matter, the documents they wrongfully uploaded were illegal anyway, he would get a slap on the wrist and the translator would be sought out and punished. Realistically, well, we can all see what happened.

 

 

 

And, to everyone else reading this. I do apologize for stooping to Eksentrysyti's level. (with my swearing, etc).

 

But I will ask again. What is the difference between: A person who is fully capable of asking for permission and doesn't, and: A person who is fully capable of asking for permission but doesn't?

(Post Script: I will probably come back and clean this up. I had a 'more intelligent' way of responding, but... that became hard as I reread the comment to reply to it. I will not, I cannot, briefly read over a comment and reply to what I think it says... So, yeah, if anyone else wants to point out my flaw[s] in reading the above post, feel free and I will amend my response based on how you read it.)

[svines85]

 

 

But I will ask again. What is the difference between: A person who is fully capable of asking for permission and doesn't, and: A person who is fully capable of asking for permission but doesn't?

 

 

 

Oh? Geez, and here I'd thought from your overall tone in post #24 that you'd already come to grips with/at least come to some sort of understanding with what Aereus told you on that topic in post #19....... i.e. that just because a scanlator is doing something as a fan and not through "official" channels that it doesn't automatically mean just every single one of us is a lawless fucking animal.

 

Scanlations, just like those comment sections and forum boards/threads here and elsewhere, are a community-type setting for fellow enthusiasts of this hobbyist activity. If you've got to put it into the form of the old adage of "Honor Among Thieves" to get it through.......well, so be it, but yeah, that's what's going on here. It really is just that simple.

[Master_Aricitic]

Oh? Geez, and here I'd thought from your overall tone in post #24 that you'd already come to grips with/at least come to some sort of understanding with what Aereus told you on that topic in post #19....... i.e. that just because a scanlator is doing something as a fan and not through "official" channels that it doesn't automatically mean just every single one of us is a lawless fucking animal.

 

Scanlations, just like those comment sections and forum boards/threads here and elsewhere, are a community-type setting for fellow enthusiasts of this hobbyist activity. If you've got to put it into the form of the old adage of "Honor Among Thieves" to get it through.......well, so be it, but yeah, that's what's going on here. It really is just that simple.

And I'm not saying you are all lawless animals.

 

The entire point I have been trying to make, and I will repeat this as many times as I have to, is the demonization of one person who literally did the same thing as another person.

 

While legally the scanlators do not have the right to distribute their scanlations, I don't care. That isn't my point. I'm not demonizing them, blaming them, or accusing them. I'm merely using that as an example of how this demonization of one person uploading something that didn't belong to them is ironic. Period. End of argument.

 

Had the demonization never happened... or, if I was misperceiving it as demonization - but given some of the things that were being said I find this hard to believe - then I'm sorry.

The bringing legality into this is only to point out: "He doesn't have the right? Ok, what gives you the right?" etc, etc.

 

Virtually everything I've said in the past umpteen posts was to try and get this point across. By no means am I demonizing scanlators (although some of them are, indeed, absolute shit) I'm simply pointing out the... and now I'm repeating myself (likely again).

 

My astonishment is how one person who decided to translate it, but not present it, is elevated to 'godly' status while the individual who tried to get it to us (and offered to remove it if asked) is made out to be a monster. If it's a matter of permission... well, I've gone over that extensively. What's the difference? Seriously, what.is.the.difference? And, please, don't bring something so flimsy as 'morals' into this. If that is going to be the argument then while it may be Aereus' moral duty to make sure the mangaka's get the best possible presentation - at least with respect to their interpretation - then I will claim it is my moral duty to point out hypocrisy and irony. Which, if we are going solely based off of morals puts me on the same grounds as Aereus. If we are going off of content providers... well, shall I start doing cleaning, typesetting and redrawing, come back in a few months and present my argument again?

 

 

p.s. after rereading your post I finally got: "honor among thieves" = yes.

Therefore, if I understand your argument correctly we need the publisher to come to a conclusion? If this is merely 'honor among thieves' (or lack thereof) then no one here has the right to come to a decision. Not Aereus, not me, not you, not the moderators, not even the site owner. Only the publisher can decide whether Aereus is in the right for the translation and the other is in the wrong for uploading.

But, given the lack of feedback from them, I doubt they even care right now - or even know about this. Since I don't want to get Aereus in any form of trouble I won't do anything. (i.e. this was by no means a threat, simply an observation)

So... IF your ultimate argument is "honor among thieves" (or lack thereof). Fine. Let's leave it with that.

I will only reply to this thread if another person decides to come in and start swearing at me. Fair?

Edited by Master_Aricitic, 14 October 2016 - 03:56 AM.

[svines85]

And I'm not saying you are all lawless animals.

 

The entire point I have been trying to make, and I will repeat this as many times as I have to, is the demonization of one person who literally did the same thing as another person.

Spoiler

While legally the scanlators do not have the right to distribute their scanlations, I don't care. That isn't my point. I'm not demonizing them, blaming them, or accusing them. I'm merely using that as an example of how this demonization of one person uploading something that didn't belong to them is ironic. Period. End of argument.

 

Had the demonization never happened... or, if I was misperceiving it as demonization - but given some of the things that were being said I find this hard to believe - then I'm sorry.

The bringing legality into this is only to point out: "He doesn't have the right? Ok, what gives you the right?" etc, etc.

 

Virtually everything I've said in the past umpteen posts was to try and get this point across. By no means am I demonizing scanlators (although some of them are, indeed, absolute shit) I'm simply pointing out the... and now I'm repeating myself (likely again).

 

My astonishment is how one person who decided to translate it, but not present it, is elevated to 'godly' status while the individual who tried to get it to us (and offered to remove it if asked) is made out to be a monster. If it's a matter of permission... well, I've gone over that extensively. What's the difference? Seriously, what.is.the.difference? And, please, don't bring something so flimsy as 'morals' into this. If that is going to be the argument then while it may be Aereus' moral duty to make sure the mangaka's get the best possible presentation - at least with respect to their interpretation - then I will claim it is my moral duty to point out hypocrisy and irony. Which, if we are going solely based off of morals puts me on the same grounds as Aereus. If we are going off of content providers... well, shall I start doing cleaning, typesetting and redrawing, come back in a few months and present my argument again?

 

 

p.s. after rereading your post I finally got: "honor among thieves" = yes.

Therefore, if I understand your argument correctly we need the publisher to come to a conclusion? If this is merely 'honor among thieves' (or lack thereof) then no one here has the right to come to a decision. Not Aereus, not me, not you, not the moderators, not even the site owner. Only the publisher can decide whether Aereus is in the right for the translation and the other is in the wrong for uploading.

But, given the lack of feedback from them, I doubt they even care right now - or even know about this. Since I don't want to get Aereus in any form of trouble I won't do anything. (i.e. this was by no means a threat, simply an observation)

So... IF your ultimate argument is "honor among thieves" (or lack thereof). Fine. Let's leave it with that.

I will only reply to this thread if another person decides to come in and start swearing at me. Fair?

 

I'm sorry, friend, but if you can't grasp where common civility between individuals is coming into play here and how one person literally stabbing another person in the back by saying "hey, just let me read your TL's for fun" and then stealing the shit and releasing it on their own is an unbelievably fucked up thing to do.......yeah, I'm just wasting my time talking to you here.

 

You seem to keep wanting to go back and cover yourself by bringing up copyright law and the original authors and publishers and God knows what else.......but all I see is someone who doesn't seem to get basic manners.

[definitionofinsanity]

Finally, you want the mangaka to be honored and respected? You wwnt thekr works done justice? Don't tranlate them and distribute the translstions. Bring attentio. To the works within your country, yes, but to legal entities that can legally and accurately translate and publish the works.

 

This is asinine. Publishing companies, especially those in Japan, care about potential market revenue and care about it domestically. Translated (effectively exporting) manga is a niche market of a niche market. If the manga itself in original Japanese didn't sell well in Japan, publishers aren't going to give two flying fucks about having it officially translated and sold internationally. No amount of pleading or pandering is going to make it happen.

 

Your argument, your strategy, only works on those manga series which are popular enough for publishers to consider warranting it (and good fucking luck having it happen for doujin comics). If it isn't, it simply won't happen because publishers are in the business of making money. Hence why fan/group scanlation exists. This isn't even taking into account of sitting around for literally 5 years after the first release in Japan while doing nothing but sitting with my thumb up my ass hoping that the publisher considers an official translation. Even if they do, by then, the anime will already likely have been out and I'll be several volumes behind and still waiting for years to catch up.

Not really a persuasive argument.