39 replies to this topic

[LaFa]

I love Tower of God and all, but the series definitely has a number of problems.

 

Post your opinions on what could(should) be improved in the series.

[Lester]

I'm pretty happy with things at the moment, actually. Some parts of this sprawling Hell Train mega-arc have sucked (looking at you, Train City) but SIU seems to have rediscovered his old stride.

 

My main complaint is more of a personal peeve as opposed to something that I would argue to be objectively wrong with the series, and it's that I don't think Baam is allowed to measure up to the title he possesses. He seldom wins any of his battles without help of some kind, and generally lacks the kind of overwhelming power that I would expect of an Irregular. LIke, he never manages to just slam someone in one hit and I think he should on occasion to show that he's capable of it. I come away from him with the impression that people in the Tower would just laugh at the notion of him being an Irregular, and that bugs me.

 

If there's anything else, I guess it would be the amount of screentime (and especially combat) that Ran gets. Why does SIU insist on shoving this irritating midget down our throats so often? There's nothing else about him that indicates that he's important enough to the story that he should get to have multiple 1v1 battles every arc when most of the rest of the supporting cast members are lucky to just get in on a team action somewhere.

[themantarays]

A question for LaFa in particular: Is the Korean fandom criticism similar to the English speaking fandom's?

Personally the thing I hate most is the whole beginning of the hell train. It was kind of poorly explained, and I feel like even sight adjustments could have made lots of moments much more powerful. It's the only section where I felt like SIU was consistently meh. And there was a long period there where I felt like nothing new was happening.

As far as the series in general goes, I think a lot of the characters ought to have died off by now lol. The brutality of climbing the tower was overhyped at the beginning, and they don't explain a lot of the administrative side of Zahard's empire (except in blogs, which isn't something I like, needing to read them to understand the story). I'd also like a bit more subtlety and complexity in the battles, but I tend to be overly picky about that kind of thing.

Still one of my top five favorite series of all time though; its actual position changes all the time.

[gus]

if i would to prefer a preference i would like SIu to go back to the main subject as in S1

 

test that take longer than one chapter and being intelligent rather than brute strength 

 

go back to team work roles wave controller light bearer  etc

 

the lack of creatures as we move up the tower yet we only see human without any characteristic like wangnan horn

 

and a solid setting were we could see test administrators interacting with regulars

 

less fight more test

 

 

Edited by gus, 19 July 2016 - 06:32 AM.

[LaFa]

...

 

For the most part, the members of the official fan cafe and those who post comments in Naver tend to praise SIU for anything that he does; however, the readers outside these areas often make complaints.The general consensus is that season 1 was better than season 2, as season 2 seems to have lost the magic touch that season 1 had (the magical feeling + brutal / harshness of the tower).

 

The cast has grown overwhelmingly large, so it's hard to immerse into the series. They also complain about this pattern: Boss fight -> tries to melt Baam -> Someone higher up intervenes and saves him. The loss of tension and the underwhelming presentation of enemies are also frowned upon. 

 

They also complain about Baam fist-fighting everyone when he's a wave controller (not using the positions at all in any of these tests/fights) and Baam being unable to really overwhelm anyone without help from the thorn.The extremely slow progression is also heavily criticized (Train City, in particular). Some people also say that the rules of these games are unnecessarily complex with many plot holes (feels like the game doesn't even need to be there).

 

Prince-Akraptor-Miseng pretty much define season 2 until now, in my opinion.

...

I agree with this for the most part. The "Wow, this guy can use so many bangs! He's a monster!" is only interesting the first time around. Baam's opponents calling Baam a monster without Baam showing any special feats are getting really old. If anything, Hoaqin seemed much more potent than Baam when Hoaqin destroyed the people at the station (although he did regress later on).

...

 

The tower seems like it is full of dreams and hopes instead being full of betrayals and corruption now. The positions aren't being incorporated at all in any of these fights/games, and the fight themselves have turned into characters shooting special effects/beams at each other. It would be interesting indeed if we could see the Tower outside of the regular testing area along with diverse races/shinheuhs, etc.

Edited by LaFa, 19 July 2016 - 07:55 AM.

[Thanos]

One of my all time criticisms of ToG are the positions. SIU fairly specifically defined the positions--up to and including the preference for equipment and battlefield mobility--as well as their roles in the Tower, he even built entire Floor around them, and then--leaving blog post characters aside for a moment--the Season 2 came with "specialised" positions that partially or completely defy these description.

• For instance, what is supposed to be the difference between "Fisherman + Light Bearer" and "Front-line Light Bearer"?
• And don't get me started on the existence of "Close-range Spear Bearer" position; the notion suggests that there may be individuals who are inept at long-range Spear Bearing, who are uniquely classified as Spear Bearers because they use spear instead of other melee weapons. How exactly did they make it through the 2F where they are judged mainly by their throwing prowess? That said, it should be fine if they were originally Fisherman and then picked up spear to enhance their melee variability.

And now back to the blog post characters, there is the Maschenny and Enryu situation. According to SIU, Maschenny's forte is Spear Bearing, though--like Enryu--she uniquely relies on her style of Shinsoo manipulation when it comes to her "spears". So why is Maschenny a Fisherman and Enryu a Spear Bearer? If Baang based spears don't count, then why is Enryu a Spear Bearer and not a Wave Controller (or something). And if they do count, why is Maschenny a Fisherman and not a Spear Bearer or Spear Bearer + Fisherman?

 

There is more, but you get the point; it's stuff like this that bothers me.

My other common criticism is two-fold: #1 I believe that SIU is long overdue to reveal certain information, from the trivial (e.g., which symbol belongs to which Great Family) to the important (e.g., is there any distinction between an Irregular who opens the door and an Irregular who follows?). And #2 I believe that the fact SIU "has to" reveal so much information via his blog posts means that the story is lacking. Sometime the blog post is only a curiosity, but sometime there is a fairly important information within (e.g., what was such a huge deal about Baam using Arie swordsmanship when he's already known for copying everything).

Edited by Thanos, 19 July 2016 - 04:32 PM.

[Bryanky]

The cast is definitely really large now. Not saying someone should die every two chapters but when was the last time someone major actually died?

It's hard for me to criticise as I don't have a creative mind but I do feel the cast can be shrunk down. 

[Fairy King Harlequin]

I criticize this too many times to bring it up, but since you're asking, SIU killed the suspense of death and I'm like any ordeal that happens I know our S1/S2 characters will be alright.  We don't need Akame ga Kill style, but please add back tragedy.

Edited by Fairy King Harlequin, 19 July 2016 - 04:54 PM.

[101010]

The greatest problem imo is that there's no suspense and that SIU makes a big deal of nothing quite often. I mean, Baam has never even been in an actual life or death situation yet. Nor has he gotten his arse proper kicked, except for when he fought Urek. There's always someone watching/protecting him and making sure we know at least 3 chapters in advance that nothing interesting is going to happen. Usually that's either Jinsung or Yuri. And then SIU seems to have adopted the nasty habit of hyping and exaggerating the most of trivial scenarios, just to keep the readers on the edge, but rather what happens is that we (I, at least) feel apathetic and detached. It's even worse when SIU ends an arc on an anti-climatic note, like he's been doing for ages already.

I am also getting tired of SIU wasting time and effort on Baam's juvenile moral dilemmas. He's unsure, we get it. No need to make a big deal of it though.

[Lester]

Nor has he gotten his arse proper kicked, except for when he fought Urek.

In essence, the one person who gets to humiliate the Irregular is another of his own kind. I think that's somewhat necessary in order to preserve the image of what Irregulars are. I've said that Baam doesn't really get to do enough to truly live up to the name and I still believe that, but that problem would become even worse if he started getting blatantly beaten by the things of the Tower. Perhaps SIU's real mistake was to make his main character into an Irregular to begin with (or to do so much to establish the Irregulars as this pantheon of monsters), but both of those ships have long since sailed.

Edited by Lester, 20 July 2016 - 01:21 AM.

[gus]

The greatest problem imo is that there's no suspense and that SIU makes a big deal of nothing quite often. I mean, Baam has never even been in an actual life or death situation yet. Nor has he gotten his arse proper kicked, except for when he fought Urek. There's always someone watching/protecting him and making sure we know at least 3 chapters in advance that nothing interesting is going to happen. Usually that's either Jinsung or Yuri. And then SIU seems to have adopted the nasty habit of hyping and exaggerating the most of trivial scenarios, just to keep the readers on the edge, but rather what happens is that we (I, at least) feel apathetic and detached. It's even worse when SIU ends an arc on an anti-climatic note, like he's been doing for ages already.

I am also getting tired of SIU wasting time and effort on Baam's juvenile moral dilemmas. He's unsure, we get it. No need to make a big deal of it though.

 

 

that another thing that i would critic  the saint analogy in Baam is getting repetitive

 

when SIU mention in his blog that  Baam is not a pacifist then why does SIU contradict the character moral in the series

 

 

 

 

 

i

[BehindTheLighT]

Apart from the occasional slow pacing and too many ran fights I don't think there are really big problems. Maybe too many characters, but I'm waiting to see how the thing with wangnan and hoaqin will end

[Furbuson]

Ever since Hoaqin got introduced im actually quite happy with ToG (after the meh train city start).

He is an interesting bad guy... nearly no traps/melting etc from his side.

 

The amount of characters really needs to be reduced. That doesnt mean that they should all die but

some can simply stay behind / climb on their own. I think it wouldnt be a bad idea to seperate a Wangnan team

that could be reintroduced into the story at some later stage, this would make it possible to focus on

the core characters for a while (Baam, Koon, Rak etc)

 

I miss the nice strategic games, but its quite a lot to ask of SIU to come up with interesting and complicated games all the time.

The one where Baam fought Hoaqin was a mess in my opinion, i dont think there is too much hope on that front.

 

Bringing back the harsh side of the tower would be nice as well. Especially if it is towards the good guys and not some random fodder.

 

Oh, and while i dont dislike the fact that Baam tries to figure out his own moral compass, i think the execution is quite poor. 

It feels like Baam is walking in circles. I had the impression that he already made up his mind to place his friends above random tower citizens 

at the beginning of season 2...

 

Now that i think about it there were quite some funny moments back in S1, like everyone loosing their shit at Quants "i dont want to kill you by accident" speech.

I miss the casual character interaction a little i guess.

 

So while i said that i am quite happy with ToG right now i actually had a lot to complain about. I guess I never was suprised that SIU couldnt keep up the level the 

story started with. I cant really think of a single webtoon/manga/etc that started off as strong as ToG and kept going for years without getting worse.

[gus]

Ever since Hoaqin got introduced im actually quite happy with ToG (after the meh train city start).

He is an interesting bad guy... nearly no traps/melting etc from his side.

 

The amount of characters really needs to be reduced. That doesnt mean that they should all die but

some can simply stay behind / climb on their own. I think it wouldnt be a bad idea to seperate a Wangnan team

that could be reintroduced into the story at some later stage, this would make it possible to focus on

the core characters for a while (Baam, Koon, Rak etc)

 

I miss the nice strategic games, but its quite a lot to ask of SIU to come up with interesting and complicated games all the time.

The one where Baam fought Hoaqin was a mess in my opinion, i dont think there is too much hope on that front.

 

Bringing back the harsh side of the tower would be nice as well. Especially if it is towards the good guys and not some random fodder.

 

Oh, and while i dont dislike the fact that Baam tries to figure out his own moral compass, i think the execution is quite poor. 

It feels like Baam is walking in circles. I had the impression that he already made up his mind to place his friends above random tower citizens 

at the beginning of season 2...

 

Now that i think about it there were quite some funny moments back in S1, like everyone loosing their shit at Quants "i dont want to kill you by accident" speech.

I miss the casual character interaction a little i guess.

 

So while i said that i am quite happy with ToG right now i actually had a lot to complain about. I guess I never was suprised that SIU couldnt keep up the level the 

story started with. I cant really think of a single webtoon/manga/etc that started off as strong as ToG and kept going for years without getting worse.

 

i would disagree is not asking a lot i don't know his circumstances but it seemed SIU is getting lazy with the games

most of the time  it is the same repetitive game as the last time

 

personally i don't think he pay that much attention to the presentation of the story or logic

 

he focus on the next chapter and that it

their no editor to past the manuscript buy  and fans who see the work praise it

 

so how can SIU make it better if no one tell him

 

hey i know your working hard but think of the story rules that you made in S1

 

not to derail this thread from the topic but i don't think TOG is meant to be for foreigners so that put us in a bad spot with no voice at all

Edited by gus, 21 July 2016 - 09:23 PM.

[25thIremi]

Ignoring the fact that no one but fodder ever dies (which I blame Naver for), I agree with 101010 that Baam's moral dilemma's seem pretty unrealistic.

---

As for the games & tests, some of them have definitely been hit & miss. But while I would love to see more detail in the tests (especially the ones that are complex team vs team battles), I think people fail to realize that the tests that SIU does go into detail about are simply background for other plot elements.

---

I also think that a lot of readers have been thrown off by the huge change in pacing. I mean, all of Season 1 took place on 2F. Granted, there was a lot of world building that needed to be done, but SIU should have either figured out how to spread that world building out through out multiple floors so that Season 1's pacing could have been like Season 2's, or... the far better choice in my opinion, SIU should have maintained the same pacing (and gravitas) of Season 1 through out the rest of the series. Sure, Baam would probably still be training under the watchful eyes of Yu Han Sung right now under such pacing, but a slower pacing also would allow SIU to spin a far thicker web.

 

Right now, I feel like the pacing of ToG is too fast and too shallow. There's not enough intrigue, suspense, or depth to the characters. It's like all we have of the characters, except for Baam & Rachel, are first impressions when we should know them by now and know them pretty damn well.

I want more background interactions like Jinsung's visit with Karaka & Ren's talk with Yu Han Sung and less shallow crap like Urek magically appearing, punching Baam, and then magically disappearing again with no actual plot impact. SIU could learn some things from World Trigger or Tokyo Ghoul, maybe even Boku no Hero Academia.

---

Finally, I agree that characters' positions should have a stronger effect on how they fight & maybe even on how they approach various non-combat situations.

Edited by 25thIremi, 24 July 2016 - 01:13 AM.

[Lester]

...less shallow crap like Urek magically appearing, punching Baam, and then magically disappearing again with no actual plot impact.

Mazino's appearance had no plot impact? That's an odd statement to make. His appearance and meeting Baam had the direct result of him ordering a watch on the kid, which sent Quant and Lero-ro to the Workshop Battle. Without them there, Hatsu would not have been able to discover Baam's predicament and tell Leesoo about the situation, which could have resulted in bad consequences at several points in the plotline we were given. Just to name two of them, if Ship doesn't know what's going on and isn't collaborating with Koon then he can't forfeit the evolving battle when needed and Baam would have been stranded behind against Reflejo and unable to prevent Beta from killing the rest of the team. And, obviously, without Androssi and Bonbon the main team has no way to get back to the arena in time to face Reflejo or to escape when he pushes the suicide button.

 

And of course, Urek still wants to meet Baam face to face again, which is likely going to have even further plot implications.

Edited by Lester, 24 July 2016 - 07:30 AM.

[25thIremi]

-snip-

Hmmm... I don't remember Hatsu making such a useful contribution. It's true that meeting Urek got Lero-ro involved and that I was exaggerating. My point was that the current pacing makes it hard for the reader to connect the dots and realize how things are moving in the sidelines. The focus is so strongly on the main characters that it excludes useful events on the sidelines and foreshadowing. Instead of all the focus on Baam's moral dilemma, I'd rather there have been more focus on the Twin Princesses, Kaiser, Rachel's team, and Yuri, just to get a better sense of what their desires, plans, and problems were.

 

Can you deny that our understanding of most of the characters is extremely shallow? What do we really know about Yuri's aspirations? What does Kaiser worry about at night? Hell, how do Prince & Miseng not suffer from panic attacks every night at the thought of what they might face the next morning?

[Apan]

The whole Wangnan Team should just die. They don't contribute anything to the story.

Rachel is pathetic antagonist. The plot around her is just bad. Thorn for her to use? WTF? Having so strong people following someone so weak? Unreasonable.

The plot is predictable.

The Tower lost its allure as incredibly dangerous place. Too few people die.

[Vapid]

The whole Wangnan Team should just die. They don't contribute anything to the story.

Rachel is pathetic antagonist. The plot around her is just bad. Thorn for her to use? WTF? Having so strong people following someone so weak? Unreasonable.

The plot is predictable.

The Tower lost its allure as incredibly dangerous place. Too few people die.

Rachel's important because she's an irregular.

Edited by Davy_Clyde, 24 July 2016 - 05:44 PM.

[Nero]

I really loved the magic of part 1. 

 

For example, the throne game was pretty thrilling. Only the most cunning could sit on that chair. Even Laure and Anak were using their heads and you couldn't predict what the teams would do. The stakes were pretty high and relevant, "Black March" & "Green April" as reward which participants themselves introduced. Death was also around the corner. Not the shitty, 'Well your lives are on the line, oops we took a hostage and we will now commence the Baam melting'. Combine that with the goofy humor that some side-characters brought to the table and you had a splendid arc.

 

SIU is pretty cheap nowadays when it comes to coming up with situations that demand thinking and people fulfilling their roles. He makes time to go deep into characters like Daniel, Roen, Aka, Sachi who uttered their regret line every 2 panels during the whole train city arc. I felt so much was wasted on characters I couldn't give 2 shits about.