27 replies to this topic

[whitecloud]

As we can see in chapter 3 the girl is drunk but able to have a somewhat decent conversations, but from the like of it in a reduced consciousness state. while the guy is sober.

[Uldar]

The issue here is that she does not behave like a real drunk person would. One moment she can't walk, the next she seems to believe she has gone back to being a high-school girl with the whole idol recruitment thing, completely forgetting who the male lead is while she is at it, then she seems to remember that she is middle-aged and way too old for the entertainment industry in japan, before inexplicably sobering up as she drinks even more alcohol, being completely aware of who she is, who he is, understands that the situation could be seen as dangerous (she is drunk and they are alone in her house), and then throws tantrums like a lonely kid, while still being aware of what is going on,  etc, etc... Her understanding of the situation is all over the place and is not realistic in the least, so real-life parallels are going to get flawed.

 

My money would be on "no" as she is still bossing him around, so she still seems somewhat capable of asserting what she wants and recognizing what she does not want. But you could make a compelling argument the other way around.

Of course my real money is on them not having actually done anything.

Edited by Uldar, 20 January 2016 - 12:11 AM.

[D4ND]

It was a drawing.

[maffa]

As far as things are depicted so far, and by broader western legal terms: a big fat "yes". 

 

If she wakes up in the morning and she doesnt recall why they are both naked in her own bed, it means that she was not in a state where she could have given a conscious response. No matter that she may have initiated the flirt herself, it is all the same as if it were underage sex. And no, it will remain rape even if he got even drunken than her, for some reason.

 

Mind everybody: i am not giving any kind of endorsement or i am going against this state of things. I am simply stating the nowadays reality of things. I have my own ideas, and I want to keep them to myself (or at least I dont want to expose them in a manga forum).

 

The only thing that comes to mind is that controversial topics are presented in manga every day, starting with mafia/yakuza being funny people that do lots of good and bake cakes: I am Italian, mafiosi are people that kill children to send warnings to their relatives, nothing to laugh about. But i am able to enjoy Nisekoi and Sun Ken Rock (and even Hitman Reborn were it be any funny), so i am pretty confident this manga will be worth my while. 

 

Again, this is as things are represented like they are as of NOW. If in the next chapter some quirky strange kind of explanation will come through -as i hope- everything will come to crumble.

Edited by maffa, 20 January 2016 - 09:23 PM.

[gwendaal]

There nothing why are you pulling the mangas on a troublesome topic.

[sneezemonkey]

As far as things are depicted so far, and by broader western legal terms: a big fat "yes". 

 

If she wakes up in the morning and she doesnt recall why they are both naked in her own bed, it means that she was not in a state where she could have given a conscious response. No matter that she may have initiated the flirt herself, it is all the same as if it were underage sex. And no, it will remain rape even if he got even drunken than her, for some reason.

 

Mind everybody: i am not giving any kind of endorsement or i am going against this state of things. I am simply stating the nowadays reality of things. I have my own ideas, and I want to keep them to myself (or at least I dont want to expose them in a manga forum).

 

The only thing that comes to mind is that controversial topics are presented in manga every day, starting with mafia/yakuza being funny people that do lots of good and bake cakes: I am Italian, mafiosi are people that kill children to send warnings to their relatives, nothing to laugh about. But i am able to enjoy Nisekoi and Sun Ken Rock (and even Hitman Reborn were it be any funny), so i am pretty confident this manga will be worth my while. 

 

Again, this is as things are represented like they are as of NOW. If in the next chapter some quirky strange kind of explanation will come through -as i hope- everything will come to crumble.

Need I remind you that this is set in Japan so Western sensibilities don't necessarily apply and legal definitions even less so if at all. If there is no proof of blackmail, violence or spiked drinks, you're going to have a hard time convincing Japanese courts and/or the majority of society (maybe less so but still difficult) that this case is rape regardless of how this pans out. The social and legal definition of rape there is not as broad.

[maffa]

Need I remind you that this is set in Japan

 

no need my man, i wrote it myself: "As far as things are depicted so far, and by broader western legal terms: a big fat "yes"." 

 

Do you speak because of any knowledge of the japanese legal system?

Edited by maffa, 21 January 2016 - 07:19 AM.

[sneezemonkey]

no need my man, i wrote it myself: "As far as things are depicted so far, and by broader western legal terms: a big fat "yes"." 
 
Do you speak because of any knowledge of the japanese legal system?

Only second/third hand at best, though Japanese attitudes towards rape ("real" vs "not real(/abnormal)", victim blaming etc.) isn't really a secret and not unique to the country.
 
I just spoke because I've have seen/heard people discussing topics, making statements and passing judgements without necessarily a proper understanding of relevant perspectives, whether they be legal, cultural/social and/or historical. Norms are different from country to country. Anyone who has had to work or study overseas or knows someone who has moved to their country will know what I mean.
 
Edit:
Translation I found of relevant section of penal code:

Article 177 (Rape)
A person who, through assault or intimidation, forcibly commits sexual intercourse with a female of not less than thirteen years of age commits the crime of rape and shall be punished by imprisonment with work for a definite term of not less than 3 years. The same shall apply to a person who commits sexual intercourse with a female under thirteen years of age.
 
Article 178. (Quasi Forcible Indecency; Quasi Rape)
(1) A person who commits an indecent act upon a male or female by taking advantage of loss of consciousness or inability to resist, or by causing a loss of consciousness or inability to resist, shall be punished in the same manner as prescribed for in Article 176.
(2) A person who commits sexual intercourse with a female by taking advantage of a loss of consciousness or inability to resist, or by causing a loss of consciousness or inability to resist, shall be punished in the same matter as prescribed in the preceding Article.

 

The first article is self explanatory. The second is where the problems will occur in court. No thanks to cultural and social attitudes and norms. I do not know enough Japanese to dig up or read the original text but I suspect "loss of conciousness" and "inability to resist" will not be interpreted as being applicable by Japanese courts in this instance.

Edited by sneezemonkey, 21 January 2016 - 08:37 AM.

[Uldar]

no need my man, i wrote it myself: "As far as things are depicted so far, and by broader western legal terms: a big fat "yes"." 

 

Do you speak because of any knowledge of the japanese legal system?

I'm really not sure about "western" legal terms here. North American legal terms? If that picture of an ad about two people getting drunk as hell and then the male being charged the next day, or if the information I got by hearsay about how insane things can get in the US, then yes, your big fat yes applies absolutely.

 

I like to think that other countries are less insane legally.

 

Funny tidbit, I read up on the legislation in France and funnily enough, there is a disctinction between "rape" and "sexual assault", rape being exclusively about a woman being penetrated through "violence, coercion (physical or otherwise), threats, or surprise". So the case of a man being coerced by his boss into sexual intercourse could not count as rape, only sexual assault. The whole "violence, coercion, etc..." includes a mistake from the woman, or lack of discernment caused by her youth. Another weird addendum, the male must know that his partner is against the penetration,

 

A flying mess if you ask me, and it doesn't really shine any light on our affair.

 

The lack of memories from Ira in this 4-koma implies that she was absolutely dead drunk, which would definitely be rape, but her behaviour as far as we've seen when the whole "go-to-bed" question appeared does not show

1) Violence, coercion, threats or surprise

2) An inability to make conscious choices

3) An unwillingness visible to the male lead (or any at all even)

 

Which would imply that, at least to the french law, it would not be rape.

 

But yet again, anally fisting someone is not rape under the french law, stricto sensu, so...

[gwendaal]

Seriously western peoples are so paranoid, seriously there to much drama going on on those kind of subject , that because peoples refuse to use their brains and take the most négative part of the law to unnecessary stir peoples.

Edited by gwendaal, 21 January 2016 - 03:14 PM.

[Dice Warwick]

as far as the comic has gotten, it's a no. The big clue is that he is still there, rapist tend to not stick around. Second, they were both drinking, her more then the guy. Third, From the last chapter, it was quite obvious that the guy had given up, and was trying to just get her to go to bed before she had too much to drink.

 

If the roles were reversed, this question would not be asked.

[gordion]

Lol, well this topic kinda became useless with the fourth chapter being released. xd

[Chifuyu]

no more rape hype

[maffa]

LOL

[Pax Empyrean]

"Is it rape?"

It's Digiorno!

 

But yet again, anally fisting someone is not rape under the french law, stricto sensu, so...

Oh, you mean the Sockpuppet Surprise?

Anyway, different countries define rape differently (duh), and some of those definitions leave an awful lot to be desired. It wasn't until fairly recently in the United States that it was actually possible for men to be victims of rape in the legal sense, due to the way the law was worded.

With this latest chapter, the situation changes from morally ambiguous to pretty cute. Values dissonance averted.

Edited by Pax Empyrean, 22 January 2016 - 02:23 PM.

[Pugnator]

As far as things are depicted so far, and by broader western legal terms: a big fat "yes".

Don't forget that in broader western legal terms, the accused is innocent until proven guilty, so in that case, without knowing what happened, there would legally be no rape. But anyway, this is a 4-koma lighthearted romance manga, it was obvious nobody would get raped.

[PieceOfSchmittGames]

Also why does it seem as if the characters seem more like teenagers than adults???

[8lacKy]

You expected Rape, but -

[Pyronex]

Every time I pick a new manga to follow... Love this website but the forum and discussion leaves much to be desired. Everyone comes in pre-butthurt and it only gets worse.

[mapokl]

So where is that rape you talking about? The fact that somebody don't remember don't always mean that they dead drunk or can't make decisions. It means that connection between your short-term and long-term memory didn't work. She herself don't consider it as a rape, so?

Edited by mapokl, 28 January 2016 - 12:49 PM.