93 replies to this topic

[Weaper]

as I think it's better to talk about it here instead of spamming the reviews area, makes known your opinion:

from kite:
man those watermark
i guess everyone start caring when it's about money.
what hypocrite. Talks about profit........
Mangafox isn't the only 1 on the wrong. This....
Disrespecting the author's manga with watermark...
making profit out of their manga on this site is pretty much the same thing mangafox is doing. If you guy gave half the profit to the author or something like that then it's another story but yeah just wanted to say my thought bc of these bs watermark

from weaper:
half the profit? even calling it profit is overboard, we give all of it to the manga by buying his work to scan them and even more from our own poket.
from 3000$/day for mangafox against us with less then 100$/month for our over 20 project. Please tell me who is earning the most over someone else work?
remember that buying a single chapter cost us about 10$ each...

from fotbolti:
I fully agree with Kite and also I enjoy more reading manga on mangafox because there is more discussion on the manga page and it is more lifely on mangafox than batoto though no disrespect to batoto also I just reccently heard of this site and I have benn reading manga for almost 8 years online I still buy the manga when they come out to support the manga...

from fotbolti:
I agree a little more know with batoto know that I have read Weaper post still isnt this supposed to be for the enjoyment for the manga fans online who cant get acces to many manga because where they live like me I live in Iceland so I have to read manga online

Edited by Weaper, 31 October 2011 - 10:22 PM.

[Weaper]

here is the message from the new translator on that project (PROzess) because the last one quit because he was fed up with mangafox's way :

Yo, folks.
With Tran out of the picture, I'm taking over as the project manager for Love so Life.
Unfortunately, I'm not such a kind soul as Tran is.
But you probably know that already.
So here's what's going on:
Love so Life, like all the other series, will be watermarked.
But not as friendly as the other project manager have it.
When I watermark, then oh god beware, I watermark to the extreme.
Due to the "kind" comments from a few individuals over the last days,
I'm not so sure yet if I will make the clean version public at some point.
For now, only the staff gets the clean chapter.
Your reactions to this post will play an important factor
in my decision to make the clean version public.

Now without further ado, enjoy the chapter.

Your friendly resident Troller PROzess

[MezzoParody]

I don't get it. Instead of encouraging readers on mangafox to switch to batoto, you're just going to punish everyone, regardless of what reader they use? But then there's no incentive to switch readers, only to rage against the scanlators. I don't think this will accomplish very much...

(Ah, to clarify, I don't mean "you" as in you, Weaper. I just mean PROzess.)

Edited by MezzoParody, 31 October 2011 - 10:51 PM.

[kurara]

LOL.. it is a pity that there is watermark on every single page. But this is all MF's fault. If you guys want to blame it on someone, please direct all your anger to MF.. better yet, just stop going there..

As far as I have seen (or read).. MF IS the only one in the fault.. LOL.. why? coz the scanlators make these scans available online. It's up to them what they wanna do with the scan, color them, watermark them, etc etc.. if MF take all these from somewhere else.. then it's MF's responsible for sharing those watermarked scan, not the scanlators (hey, don't like it? then don't read it). If MF is so mighty right, then they can buy their own raw and scanlate themselves and put them on their site and I won't give a damn on whatever they do.

[bluethunder]

I don't get it. Instead of encouraging readers on mangafox to switch to batoto, you're just going to punish everyone, regardless of what reader they use? But then there's no incentive to switch readers, only to rage against the scanlators. I don't think this will accomplish very much...

(Ah, to clarify, I don't mean "you" as in you, Weaper. I just mean PROzess.)

Well, there's no really punishment for those who actually go to the website. Plus, Prozess is not a mind reader and wielder of telekinesis (though he wishes he was ) so none of us can know who's going where and for what reader. I think this is the best method to fight against sites like mangafox. If you've got more suggestions, do tell. Note: I'm saying this all in a calm nonsarcastic tone, so no flame wars over this!

[Koro]

Just fyi, when we say MF, that also includes MangaHere and other sites owned by NOEZ.
For those who don't know, MF, MH and several other manga and anime sites are owned by NOEZ, an actual company. They have their own fake merchandise (that otaku shop crap on their websites), have orchestrated DDoS attacks against other sites (eg. Foolrulez) and have stopped even pretending they care (for starters, locking the "Scanlator policy" section).

[MezzoParody]

Well, there's no really punishment for those who actually go to the website. Plus, Prozess is not a mind reader and wielder of telekinesis (though he wishes he was ) so none of us can know who's going where and for what reader. I think this is the best method to fight against sites like mangafox. If you've got more suggestions, do tell. Note: I'm saying this all in a calm nonsarcastic tone, so no flame wars over this!

The website they advertise via watermark is batoto, yes? Which would work if the watermark appears on mangafox and encourages people to go come to batoto. But if you read it on batoto, you still get the watermark advertising that you should read it on batoto. That's what I can't make sense of.

Also, I too have no intention of starting a flame war. I used the word "rage" because I figured that would be the most easily predictable response. I myself am disappointed, yes, but not angry. So yeah, let's all stay peaceful.

(if this ends up being a double-post, I apologize. My internet is being weird.)

[flikflak]

I have the same opinion as MezzoParody.

If the teams want to attract people to batoto they should send the clean scans to batoto for uploading purpose for a while and see what the other side do. There is no point if you attract people to batoto to find that the same watermark is put on the scans here. If it is the same, they won't change their online reading habits.

You have to find out if when MF realizes there are clean scans here they'll download those and reupload on their website first before watermarking everything for everyone.

Just my two cents though.

[Bry]

>READ ON BATOTO!!!!!!

But there are watermarks too.

[synergic]

The website they advertise via watermark is batoto, yes? Which would work if the watermark appears on mangafox and encourages people to go come to batoto. But if you read it on batoto, you still get the watermark advertising that you should read it on batoto. That's what I can't make sense of.

Also, I too have no intention of starting a flame war. I used the word "rage" because I figured that would be the most easily predictable response. I myself am disappointed, yes, but not angry. So yeah, let's all stay peaceful.

(if this ends up being a double-post, I apologize. My internet is being weird.)

+1. I try to support the scanlators by reading from their site or on batoto if they don't have one, but the reasoning behind this just unfathomable. Threatening the people you're trying to get support out of doesn't help either. If anything, this hurt the group more than it did good.

[Amplify]

I'm pretty sure most of you are missing the point, if the cleans were posted up here right away then Mangafox and co would just take it straight from here and upload that, bypassing the watermarks entirely. After a day or two once Mangafox and friends have uploaded the watermarked versions and everybody on those sites have seen them, then the clean versions are uploaded to here.

At least that's the way that would make the most sense and as I understand it.

[kurara]

Yes, there are watermarks here too... because MF steal the scans from here.... Some other scanlators put out the good ones in an hour or two after the "bad" version got downloaded and showed up in MF. However, PROzess has mentioned: "I'm not so sure yet if I will make the clean version public at some point.".... so we don't know if he'll upload the good version (hopefully he will)

Edited by kurara, 31 October 2011 - 11:56 PM.

[synergic]

I'm pretty sure most of you are missing the point, if the cleans were posted up here right away then Mangafox and co would just take it straight from here and upload that, bypassing the watermarks entirely. After a day or two once Mangafox and friends have uploaded the watermarked versions and everybody on those sites have seen them, then the clean versions are uploaded to here.

At least that's the way that would make the most sense and as I understand it.

No, I completely understand that mangafox will just rip clean scans, but you're wrong about the scanlator's plans. No where did the scanlator mention what you're saying about releasing cleans after a few days in the above post. What they basically said is that they have no plans to release cleans if people didn't "play nice", they even say they may never release a clean version in the future regardless. What they're doing is trying to get people to convert from sites like MF to batoto in order to support them, but there's no incentive for people to switch as even batoto has watermarks. Most people wouldn't want to switch from a site they've used for a long time, that has many more series, to a new one if there's no benefits in doing so as most leechers don't care about the scanlators. The ones that do try to support them are getting punished as they have to read watermarked releases too. The way the scanlators are doing it is a lose-lose situation for both them and the readers.

[Koro]

The only clear-cut advantage we can offer people like that is the fact that Batoto will always have our releases before MangaFox. In this case, LSL 30 hasn't been and probably won't be uploaded to MF or MH. Unfortunately since MF aggressively rip from Batoto (Btooom! was up in around 5 minutes) I'd say swapping out fake releases is the best bet aside from watermarking.
On that note, however, if you read the post on Japanzai you'll know that PROzess is now the project manager for LSL, so the LSL releases won't necessarily reflect how other series are watermarked/released. It's up to him at this point; if you have an opinion or idea you want heard, you know where to do it.

[Bagelson]

Batoto also has the advantage of full size scans. That's one of the top reasons I switched to Batoto.

As for watermarking, I can sympathize with the scanlators. I do understand your need to make a statement. However, I'm quite sensitive to quality issues. Watermarking this aggressive means I'll have to give up on reading this manga - and any others with the same treatment.

[Do Nhat]

You all talked about how the fans are offended by putting watermark on every page. Then about, beside criticizing, provides some practical solutions for the scanlators? They have gave effort and money to buy the actual copies and uploaded it. They have put their own pocket money in this and unfortunately this time around there is a limit to that. And it's not that they just put on the watermark out of nowhere. They have tried so many ways to redirect you to the page that would support them to continue to scan and uploaded it for you readers. They could have just share it among them-self.
So people, you are enjoying it free of charge, the only thing you have to do it read it on Batoto.
The scans on batoto is not better mangafox, mangareader..ect because the others site are stealing from Batoto. But it will get better if you switch to Batoto. Look at it this way, You change to Batoto, you will have better scans in the future. If you dont, there could be no more of this or other series that you are following.
The only thing you have to do it change the site, how hard could that be?
And for the discussion? For those who want and need it, start one. It's not like they dont have that function here right?

[Koro]

@Do Nhat: the scans at Batoto actually are better; MF, MH, etc. all compress and convert the files they get, even when it's disadvantageous. They take the full-sized PNG files (PNG being our default format since it's lossless) and host resized, compressed JPG files.
eg. Btooom! ch 39.
Batoto, page 1, 970px x 1428px, 408KB, PNG format
MF, page 1, 728px x 1108px, 317KB, JPG format

They resize and compress and still end up with only slightly smaller files. They honestly suck at compression.

[johnkard]

Interesting problem we have here.

The way I see it, this entire microcosm is built on the work of the manga authors. They tell stories through a very awesome medium to a narrow audience of Japanese fluent readers in the eastern hemisphere, and they make profit in that arena.

Scanlators are our (the english fluent community of leeches) conduit to these stories. They do what they do and spread the love through relatively small word of mouth (or post as it were...) communities. The work is hard and tedious, and our communities would not exist without it. However, as far as I understand there is little to no profit in this because very few readers are willing or able to follow all of the manga they read on the Site or IRC of the scanlators that support the western manga community.

Manga reading sites like Mangareader and Mangafox DO provide a useful service in that they unify the work done by the community. Yes, they may have been composed by opportunistic bastards, but I honestly think the service they provide by unifying releases is more valuable to the leech community then the amount of translation done by one whole scanlation group. There's a HUGE amount of profit in this because they get an unholy shitton of traffic on a very regular basis. Yes, they are generating profit with the fruit of somebody else's labor, but let's be honest. If they didn't exist, most people would not actually follow every single scanlator site. In fact, without the lists provided by these sites, they probably wouldn't even know about manga in the first place.

That said, whatever site unifies Scanlations NEEDS to be owned and maintained by the community, or at least needs to channel the "profit" back towards Scanlators and ideally back towards authors.

Also, as far as manga authors and artists are concerned. Manga is not doing very well in japan right now. The 90's boom is over, hard copy manga magazines are NOT selling as well as they used to, and the profit they get from new markets on the Internet is not covering the difference. Since we constitute a large part of the appreciative audience for manga I do think we should try to change this by buying more manga, generating traffic on japanese manga homepages (you should all know how to use Chrome to translate), and pouring an equal ammount of support into the Anime community.


I digress,

As far as what PROzess did with Love So Life. It is a Spectacular way to get peoples attention. The point probably isn't to provide an incentive, but simply to make people pay attention. Has it done so? Count the posts...

For those of you raging over the blemish on your favorite shoujo manga...REALLY??? They bought the hard copy, scanned it, translated it, painstakingly cleaned every single page, typeset the translations, uploaded it, and shipped it conveniently to the top of your favorite manga reading site, and you're upset about a short message included for the sake of their very survival???

Again I digress,

For now, I'm a fan of PROzess and you should too.

Edited by johnkard, 01 November 2011 - 02:13 AM.

[MezzoParody]

As far as what PROzess did with Love So Life. It is a Spectacular way to get peoples attention. The point probably isn't to provide an incentive, but simply to make people pay attention. Has it done so? Count the posts...

For those of you raging over the blemish on your favorite shoujo manga...REALLY??? They bought the hard copy, scanned it, translated it, painstakingly cleaned every single page, typeset the translations, uploaded it, and shipped it conveniently to the top of your favorite manga reading site, and you're upset about a short message included for the sake of their very survival???

I don't think anyone here was raging, we're just expressing our concern. Scanlators go through as much work as they do out of an honest effort to share stories they like with other people, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I just don't understand how this "mangafox is stealing our work, so from now on everyone has to try and read it past watermarks" mentality helps that goal. I for one can't read past watermarks, they're too distracting. I assume that's the case for most people, since that seems to be the point of them. So if that doesn't help the original goal of sharing enjoyable stories, then isn't it counter-productive?

Like you said though, this is a pretty tricky problem. My favorite idea for a solution is something along the lines of, "Upload a chapter w/ watermarks. Let the mangafox bot get it. Re-upload the clean chapter on batoto." But of course I don't know how the logistics of that work out. Hopefully a solution can be found that effectively brings people to batoto and still allows everyone to enjoy manga. Right?

[©®åƒ†¥µåGGø†]

What they're doing is trying to get people to convert from sites like MF to batoto in order to support them, but there's no incentive for people to switch as even batoto has watermarks.

Invalid. Just a reminder, it is the escalator that puts in the watermarks and not batoto. There is far more incentive for people to switch than just watermarks. The scanlation community is slowly being strangled, meanwhile sites like MF reap in huge profits without even lifting a finger. Raws cost money... learning another language costs money... maintaining a site that nobody visits because they're too busy hanging out on aggregates costs money. Sites like MF are sucking away the funds necessary to cover these kinds of costs away from those who actually need it to continue doing what they're doing. Lots of times, the credits page will be taken out, so the scanlation group winds up not being mentioned at all. Batoto will offer the manga how the scanlators meant for it to be shown, and if that even means watermarks then so be it.

The ones that do try to support them are getting punished as they have to read watermarked releases too. The way the scanlators are doing it is a lose-lose situation for both them and the readers.

I'm not sure that viewing watermarked releases as a punishment is a particularly healthy mindset, though it does seem common. People need to remember that they aren't actually entitled to any releases at all. I do agree that it isn't particularly advantageous to the scanlator or the reader (at least at first glance, but it certainly has generated some buzz as johnkard rightly pointed out), but this is only a response to the aggressive and unfair policies of sites such as mangafox. You also have to remember that it was already a lose-lose situation to begin with... The readers lose as well because many scanlation groups find themselves dropping projects or just barely scraping by due to a lack of funds. These watermarks are a way of combatting that, by generating buzz, and drawing people to a site that actually helps subsidize scanlation groups and their projects through ad share (provided, it isn't much, but it is something) and will give them credit where credit is due. If you want to keep reading manga online, but you don't want to visit a bunch of different sites for individual scanlation groups (and nobody blames you), then you should use a site like batoto. Yes, some of the features on this site are not perfect, but there is constant improvement and you will generally see chapters pop up here before anywhere else except the site of the scanlator. So don't choose batoto to read your manga watermark free. Choose batoto to continue reading your manga.

Edited by ragnarok_chili, 01 November 2011 - 02:55 AM.