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[Spoilers] Why Su-woon fails?


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#1
defry

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The manga shows sometimes what is happening with Su-woon and I think the goal is to sympathize with him or gradually accept him. In the end, the author's goal seems to have forgiveness in her plans for su-woon in the future but for me.... I can never forgive him.

 

Even if king Il did kill Su-woon's father, which I bet that king Il had his reasons to do so.  Remember for no good reason Yu-hon had an aggressive attitude towards Yona as a kid, which is suspicious cause there's no reason to have hostility against a innocent young girl at the age of 4-6. Yu-hon also had hostility and abused the priests [which Su-woon inherited his disagreement of religion], I assume Yu-hon heard a prophecy that Yona might be king Hiryuu, thus, he had hostility against her and against the priests.

 

Now back to the topic of Su-woon, killing or taking the throne cause the king killed your father doesn't make him fit to be a king. His pretext of king Il being a coward and giving away land and always negotiating peacefully seems to be an excuse or a facade to take the throne, he did say that he lived his days for the day to kill king Il. This means he was driven mainly by revenge and not by the fact that king Il was incompetent. King Il's so called incompetency is just a facade or excuse for Su-woons ego and cowardice. In the end if he wanted to be a king or the best for the nation, he could of chosen the hard way to marry Yona and become king. I mean, how hard would it be to become king when he had the support of the 4 tribes and at that time the 4 tribes had the most power because king Il would easily agree to their suggestions. He would of worked hard and convinced king Il, also this would still developed Yona's character because from the get go she was a hard worker and honest, except she was isolated and overprotected... this would of made Yona more independent to convince her dad to marry with Su-woon.

Though, he had all the options and it would of taken a bit more time.... he chose to take the throne in such a way which just proves that he wasn't necessarily thinking for the best of the country, that was a facade and all he wanted was revenge for his big ego and cowardice.

 

I am never gonna approve of Su-woon or forgive him, he thinks he knows his stuff but there are times when he still fails even in battle. For example in the last battle.... he didn't secure the escape path of the kai empire general lizhard, who, after failing his attack was about to escape and ravage villages as revenge and gather some money but it was Yona who had to do that. Su-woon didn't consider the people during battle but mostly how to win or look good, if he really did consider... he would of took precautions to protect the villages. In the near future we see again that villages were being attacked because of his "war" but he didn't take actions to prevent such things. He's smart but his arrogance and ego makes him a failure to see certain situations or truths, he's also a coward.


Edited by defry, 29 March 2015 - 12:25 PM.


#2
daranei

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Hello! You make some interesting points, but there are several places where I would have to respectfully disagree with you regarding Soo-won’s character. Warning: Mini-essay coming up...
 
Whether or not there is forgiveness in store for Soo-won, the author has always shown us multiple sides of her characters. I think her main goal in showing Soo-won’s story is to show us that he, like everyone else in this story, is a human being. Seeing Soo-won’s story along side Yona’s is an exercise in empathy/sympathy. It’s easy to paint a character as a villain or view them in the light of some single defining characteristic, but it’s important to understand that these characters are so much more complex than that. People are not morally absolute and I think that the author does an excellent job in demonstrating this through her characters.  
 
REGARDING SOO-WON’S KILLING OF KING IL: I do agree that Soo-won killing King Il was primarily motivated by revenge. I sincerely believe that Soo-won becoming king was good for the country, but it is almost certain that it being “what was best for the country” was an afterthought. So yes, in that sense, Soo-won killing King Il was not motivated by “good” intentions, and yes, I will agree that in doing so, Soo-won betrayed Yona and Hak. Absolutely, he made a decision that was perhaps not the best decision he could make at the time. But it’s important to realize that Soo-won is very much a human character, and humans make terrible mistakes. To say that it was because of his ego and cowardice is a bit of an overreaching statement. Even if it was motivated by revenge, Soo-won did not kill King Il out of some sort of inflated ego, or some desire to prove that he was the best. Soo-won is simply a son who cannot forgive the man who killed his father. Even if King Il had a reason to kill Yu-hon, I strongly believe that Soo-won would not have been aware of that reason. He is just someone (a child, in fact! remember that Soo-won was only nine when his father died) who had his father taken away from him by his uncle, a man he trusted and loved. And every time after that he saw King Il, all he would see was the face of someone who killed the man he respected and loved the most in the world. It’s easy to see why Soo-won would have harbored such resentment for King Il, if this were the case. I also very strongly disagree with the statement that Soo-won is a coward, as I believe he is one of the most courageous characters in Akatsuki no Yona. Soo-won knew that by killing King Il, he faced the risk of many of the people that were essentially his family (Yona, Hak, Mundok) turning their back on him. How terrifying must it have been to know that by avenging his father, he would be losing the only people of his family he had left? And isn’t that what courage is? Facing the things that frighten us most in order to do what we believe is right or necessary? It might not have been the best decision, as I have said before, but that does not detract from Soo-won’s courage in making that decision.
 
Regarding Soo-won simply marrying Yona to take the throne, I do not believe King Il would have allowed it to happen. King Il was vehemently opposed to Soo-won marrying Yona and becoming king, if we recall. Of course, we don’t know exactly why, but I believe it has something to do with the his killing Yu-hon. He told Yona that he would accept ANYONE but Soo-won; that hardly seems like a statement from someone who would simply roll over and listen to whatever the four tribes told him. So marrying Yona was basically out. Not that it matters, of course, since we’ve already established that Soo-won was primarily motivated by revenge, but even if he wasn’t…
 
Did Soo-won make the right decision to kill King Il? Probably not. Was there a better decision that he could have taken? Perhaps, but it isn’t something as obvious as marrying Yona. But does his decision make him an egotistical coward? No, I don’t think so. Misguided, perhaps, and certainly flawed. But human; above all, Soo-won is human, and I think it’s important to remember that.
 
REGARDING SOO-WON AS A KING: Yes, it is the king’s responsibility to protect the people. However, this is hardly an easy task. If this were the case, King Il -- and every other king for that matter -- would have been a more effective king. Soo-won did the best he could with the resources he had to protect his people. Any looted villages would not have been Soo-won’s failure but rather an unforeseen casualty. Because that’s the thing: casualties are a very real part of war. You cannot always protect everyone, but you can certainly try to protect as many people as possible. That is what Soo-won did. Please don’t overlook the lives that he was able to save.
 
Furthermore, while he could have chosen to send at least one troop to each village, this would have divided his forces and reduced the fighting power in the locations that would be critical in deciding the outcome of the war. If certain cities were to fall, the kingdom of Kouka would fall. Choosing to concentrate his forces in critical locations was a strategically sound decision. Wars are often long campaigns. Thus it is absolutely important to have as many advantages as possible. Forces that are spread too thinly would be easy picking for a much larger army, regardless of how skilled your warriors are. Yes, he made his decisions to win, but isn’t winning a critical part of fighting a war? He did not make his decisions to “look good.” 
 
Finally, throughout the series, the author has shown us many times in which Soo-won has acted with his people’s best interest in mind. For instance, he went to Awa to investigate the rumors of Yang Kum-ji’s corruption. He simply could have turned a blind eye to this, or sent someone else, but he went to verify this himself. Upon arriving at Awa, he learned that the pirates had already taken care of Kum-ji. Instead of punishing the pirates for… well, piracy… he chose to overlook it since their actions had protected the villagers of Awa from Kum-ji’s greed, which is what he had intended to do himself. Also, in his visit to the Earth Tribe, his seemingly meaningless actions were intended to revitalize the Earth Tribe’s failing economy. An incompetent king would not have been able to do something like that. 
 
Ultimately, while I am hesitant to forgive Soo-won for betraying Yona and Hak, he certainly has my respect as a king and a commander. 
 
tl;dr: Soo-won is human, and humans make mistakes. He has made bad decisions, but that does not make him a bad person, nor does it make him a bad king.


#3
defry

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First of all, I agree with the being human but a mistake is a one time event.. but when one makes a continous "mistake", it's not a mistake anymore. It's just a wrong way of life. I don't think Su-woon saw king Il kill his father, he was told but he didn't even knows the reasons.... probably yu-hon killed Yona's mother, cause he had a trauma or obsession of her being assassinated, he insinuated that her mother was assassinated, that's why Yona was being secluded. Another thing to take into considerations, Su-woon is rather smart.... way smarter than Yona or atleast way more perceptive or even experienced. Look at Yona, she realized that revenge at the moment wasn't the right thing and before doing such a thing, you need to take into consideration the circumstances.

 

Su-woon didn't do so, he ruined the girl he liked, his best friend that devoted his loyalty to him and even killed his feelings as a friend for him. While Yona had to watch the guy she loved for years kill her father and say to her that he lived only for this moment. Thus, negating all his past and their relationships, those were his honest feelings at that time... he was full of hatred and despair and dark. Yona seen it first hand and went through way more, except first thing she did was ensure her and hak's survival, then, she faced the errors of her father's rule and then she tried to make it right, swallowing and enduring her revenge and love. While Su-woon did what? I said it before, king Il gave the tribe freedom and the tribes had more influence than the king. Realistically, even a king has to "sell" his daughter to secure his country or his life, or even the life of the daughter... if he had enough power and influence, he could of tried harder to marry Yona, who was willing. Plus, the commander and chief, the royal general.. Hak approved of him.. so if Hak and especially Yona really wanted it, it could of happened. Remember king Il didn't know or realize that Yona loved Su-woon, he thought she loved Hak.

The same way he was a coward and couldn't face his own dark emotions... when Yona was about to be killed by his followers, he goes all blank for a while and thus, Yona escaped. He never faces Yona, he's a coward and can't decide to kill her or what to do with her on numerous occasions. His right hand sky general gave out to him in the water tribe for hesitating and being a coward feeling guilty.

 

By the way, in future chapters we'll see the results of the lands king Il gave away.... there's so many issues that were there before king Il became king. A king is a human as you said, that's why it was always better to leave regional or some local governing like the wind tribe and earth tribe were doing. In the end, giving too much freedom to each tribe can be good cause they can govern their lands better than so king that is sometimes a third party. In the latest chapters on raws, Yona and friends are at the borders and we see that the lands given away are better off and the people didn't care and were happy that there was peace. The people suffer because of wars, for thousands of years the lands were always won or loss over and over, people, the land suffered. So giving off a part of your country isn't necessarily a negative thing if it reduces casualties and the damage done over time.

 

Su-woon does seem to act in the best interest but more than that, he enjoys manipulating, commanding people... we see this from his childhood. That's when he's the most lively... even now. He gets a kick out of it.

 

My conclusion is the same, the more the show Su-woons p.o.v to sympathize with him, the more unforgivable he is. Cause he's not repenting and he just acts the victim... when we compare to Yona, he's lacking so much in courage and development. He's just useless... even with all that brain, he can't grow nor does want to. Even the fire general's son wants to better himself, it's human nature but him, he's not facing reality. As he stated there... "he lived for this day", he lived to kill king Il and now he's just a bored king using his talents without any conviction. Let's not forget that after he killed king Il, the fire tribe went to war and many soldiers died and the case of many other people dying because him killing king Il. The best option was political negocation and political pressure.

The most critical time he's like a dead fish...


Edited by defry, 08 April 2015 - 02:48 AM.


#4
Gabyta07

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I don't agree with you guys, with neither of you :D

First of all I believe that when Yona was born everyone knew by the priests mouths that she was the reincarnation of the red dragon.

I do believe So-Won father tried to do something to her and that is the reason for Yona's father killing his brother

I also believe that, it was for that reason that King II said no wars, no conflict and overprotected her.

My guess is that probably the reincarnation of the red dragon meant there was going to be conflict in Kouka, so King II, tried to avoid that

 

Anyhow bc we don't know what really happened, I don't think we can judge yet So-Won, for that we have to know the past for certainity.

The only glimpse we have had, is that So-Won said his father didn't believe in legends, meaning he didn't believe in the dragons.

So-won even says he has to save Kouka, that even though the legend says that the draongs would proctect it, he doesnt believe it.

I do think that he hated his uncle, but I also think he loves Kouka. I think he is the best thing that could have happened to Kouka, and that his priorities were not revenge but following his father's teachings, which was his love for Kouka.

Yes, he kill for revenge, but also for Kouka's well being, in any eyes, this is the best thing that could happened to Kouka, and those who followed him, knew it. An airheaded King, and an airheaded princess, who they didn't know who she will marry, while Kouka continued to suffer due to the King II's actions.

Plus So-Won knows he is going to die, by Hak's hand or Yona's arrow, he knows he deserves it, but he has to be a king first.

In fact he has protected Yona, so she is not killed by his soldiers, also he knows he will have to answer to Hak one day.

And you can see it, when he has the flashbacks of their happy days, and when he tells Yona "You want to kill me? But I can't die yet"

Even Yona has accepted that Kouka needs a king, a real one, and that So-Won is that king. In fact she hasn't made any move to take away the crown, bc she knows the ppl need him.

Also is wonderful the development we see here, bc So-Won, even if he loved Yona, he thought she was an airhead princess, who didnt care for her ppl, a coward, a spoiled princess.

In fact the first time she uses the arrow in front of him, he looks surprised.

I truly believe So-Won is Yona's sword from the legend, and I believe that both of them have to know what happened in the past, to keep saving Kouka, and form a team.

While I do think Yona will end up forgiving So-Won,  I don't think Hak (who I believe is the shield) would ever do. And as soon this is over he would kill him.


"It's like Tolstoy said. Happiness is an allegory, unhappiness a story"

"And the sense of tragedy-according to Aristotle.comes, ironically enough, not from the protagonist's weak points but from his good qualities. Do you know what I'm getting at? People are drawn deeper into tragedy not by their defects but by their virtues"

Kafka on the shore by Haruki Murakami...the man that was the inspiration for Sen Takatsuki

 


#5
defry

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He never protected Yona, he hesitated and was scared... one thing I don't doubt is that he loves Yona but in the end he's a coward to do anything about it. We can see few times where he hesitates and his subordinates, his dual wielding general gives out to him.

 

We do know Yona uncle hated religious stuff... even if he didn't believe or not, remember Yon said that his adoptive father, the priest was persecuted. He said that Yona's uncle persecuted and abused, also made big raids to destroy the priests. If he didn't believe so, he wouldn't of persecuted them... usually someone who doesn't believe kinda ignores or is indifferent. Anyways, it doesn't change the fact his father persecuted the priests.

 

The shield and sword is Lilly, the water tribe's leader's daugther and the second son of the fire general. They have this deep infatuation and admiration for Yona and support her. My guess based on their loyality and so on is that they are the shield and sword.

 

 

Last thing, if he killed for the kingdom's welfare.... he wouldn't of said something along the lines he lived only to kill king Il, that just means that his existence so far was dedicated and only for killing king Il. For the greater good of the kingdom was an excuse and mostly for him to get support to kill king Il. We don't know the whole story but it's clear so far. Even his life as a king, he still acts carefree, he doesn't have any intensity, ambition or conviction as a king.... he just uses his arrogance and somewhat good brain to do what he thinks is best. Even then, he still fails because the rebellion of the fire tribe was his fault.. one - he could of prevented it, safety means prevention and not when it happens, two - he didn't take steps to protect near by villages, in the end, Yona had better foresight and protected the people, while he was unaware, three - the success of his rebellion instigated the fire tribe ambition, which gave them hope that they can do it too. 



#6
Gabyta07

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He never protected Yona, he hesitated and was scared... one thing I don't doubt is that he loves Yona but in the end he's a coward to do anything about it. We can see few times where he hesitates and his subordinates, his dual wielding general gives out to him.

 

We do know Yona uncle hated religious stuff... even if he didn't believe or not, remember Yon said that his adoptive father, the priest was persecuted. He said that Yona's uncle persecuted and abused, also made big raids to destroy the priests. If he didn't believe so, he wouldn't of persecuted them... usually someone who doesn't believe kinda ignores or is indifferent. Anyways, it doesn't change the fact his father persecuted the priests.

 

The shield and sword is Lilly, the water tribe's leader's daugther and the second son of the fire general. They have this deep infatuation and admiration for Yona and support her. My guess based on their loyality and so on is that they are the shield and sword.

 

 

Last thing, if he killed for the kingdom's welfare.... he wouldn't of said something along the lines he lived only to kill king Il, that just means that his existence so far was dedicated and only for killing king Il. For the greater good of the kingdom was an excuse and mostly for him to get support to kill king Il. We don't know the whole story but it's clear so far. Even his life as a king, he still acts carefree, he doesn't have any intensity, ambition or conviction as a king.... he just uses his arrogance and somewhat good brain to do what he thinks is best. Even then, he still fails because the rebellion of the fire tribe was his fault.. one - he could of prevented it, safety means prevention and not when it happens, two - he didn't take steps to protect near by villages, in the end, Yona had better foresight and protected the people, while he was unaware, three - the success of his rebellion instigated the fire tribe ambition, which gave them hope that they can do it too. 

 

 

He hesitated and was scared???? I didn't see that at all, he hid Yona with his clothes, when his soldiers came, he didn't even say, I have Yona. He saved her, he could have very well told them, kill her, and neither Yona or Hak, could have done anything about it, and in the water arc, when the soldiers do recognize Yona, he stopped them, so I don't see where you say he hesitated and was scared.

He never hesitates, he has a gentle personality, but he can be ruthless when things get though, he is intellingent, and he knows ppl respond more to kindness than anything else, he is cunning too. His soldiers only scold him, when he puts himself in peril trying to help Kouka's ppl or when they don't understand his goal, or even when they can not see as far ahead as he can. His ppl are more important to him than anything else.

 

Ok, that's your theory (about the lilly thing) although to me it doesn't make any sense, bc the sword and shield are suposse to be Yona's, I don't know how the general and Lilly going to do that job, specially Lilly, who isn't strong enough, and a lady, the same for the general's son, he is weak, yes he is trying to help, but still he is weak, unless he develops in a way that he gets strong, but I doubt it.

 

And as I said before he had his personal reasons and his love for Kouka, yes he did said that, but again, his love for Kouka is great, how did you think he got that many supporters, he wouldn't have gotten them if it were only a personal vendetta. There a historic thing we don't know, until we know the whole picture we can really judge him in that regard. As I said before, he is not carefree, he acts like that, you seem to have the same set of mind that, that general had of him, when he subestimated him, it was until he fought him, that he realized it was all an acT, that he wasn't an airheaded king, as much as he portrayed, but an intelligent one, that is why ppl follow him, bc they know he would make Kouka great, even Yona realized that, that her kingdom needed him, that is why, when she had a chance to kill him, she didn't. And I would say the contrary to you, he has ambition, intensity, and more than nothing conviction as a king, he is a true king. He went to stop the rebellion, and it was indeed something he did not forsee, he indeed was slow to act, but he did, plus he has less freedom to act than Yona, due to his status as king.

 

Do not misunderstand me, I do hate him for all he has done to Yona, but the author has been portraying him as a good king, not matter if we want to vilify him.

This manga is not black and white, but rather grey. Su-Won is a bad person IMO, but nevertheless according to the mangaka, he is a great king.


"It's like Tolstoy said. Happiness is an allegory, unhappiness a story"

"And the sense of tragedy-according to Aristotle.comes, ironically enough, not from the protagonist's weak points but from his good qualities. Do you know what I'm getting at? People are drawn deeper into tragedy not by their defects but by their virtues"

Kafka on the shore by Haruki Murakami...the man that was the inspiration for Sen Takatsuki

 


#7
defry

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He does and did hesitate. When he killed king Il and Yona came, she escaped because he was perplexed and didn't know what to do when the soldiers came in and when he seen how hurt Yona was, that she wanted to convince king Il to let her marry him. He hesitated again when Hak ran from the palace with the princess, he talked as a bad guy but didn't give the order to kill them, nor did he give the order to stop... hesitated and shocked state again.

He didn't save, he put her in such situation in the first place. Saving her would mean for her not to be wanted anymore, for her coming back to the palace or trying  to marry her. He doesn't do that and is a coward because he can't see Yona killed in front of himself, thus... stalls the situation without doing anything, leaving it to underlings to dirty their hands. 

 

I read the raws, I can't agree he might be a good king yet... so far, king Il seemed a coward but the parts of the borders were in a endless bloodbath for hundreths of years, he gave up stuff and it was somewhat bad for the economy. While all that, the areas near the border were happy and peaceful.... which in the end is ruined by him declaring war, thus, again the innocent civilians and towns were raided by the losing opposing kingdom. It's not about freedom, he has to take measure to prevent stuff like that but he never does.

King Il at least valued human life, while he is blinded by power that is proven through war. Which can be really called a good king? Let's not forget that the tribe leaders did a good job running their areas well, he admitted at the earth county (except for the fire, who was obsessed with military, invested in only that).

 

Yona realized that the kingdom needs a king at the moment and she said that sort of king you wanted to be.. she left him alone. I think, she'll wait and see the situation and if the actions are bad; she'll punish him. I agree that there are some parts that we can't draw a conclusion but I can't ignore how he stalls and he never has a resolution for the situation, thus hesitating doing everything half-baked. A king doesn't need to act a fool, he could of been full of authority, charisma like he is once in a while... a king needs to be a strong symbol at all times, resolute and unwavering.

 

About Lily and the fire general's second son... their development is amazing and they're not weak. It's not a shounen, strength can be intelligence, influence, determination, love and even combat, so on. They are growing in these areas.



#8
Dale B

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Keep one thing in mind; King  Il was being blamed for a lot of things he never did. The generals were responsible for their lands....they were the tribal chiefs, after all. So the situation in Awa with Yan Kumji was not Il's failure; it was Geun Te sitting on his butt and whining about not having a war to play in. The fire tribe's desitute condition was SooJin's doing entirely. He was building an army to conquer Kouka and install himself as Hiryuu the 2nd. The water tribe's being overrun with Nadai was solely due to the behavior of Joon Gi. The Earth tribe general didn't lift a finger, and doubtless never told the king about his retainer...if he even cared. The Fire tribe general destroyed his land and made sure the soldiers were compliant...so who from there informed King Il? The Water tribe was being run by an idiot who ignored danger for the illusion of safety, and his pride kept him from asking for assistance.

 

Then look at the lands that Il surrendered; all of them were taken by his brother, Yu-hon. Remember what Su- won said in the first episode/ first few chapters? He was -never- the Su won they thought they knew. Sounds like an admission that this was the culmination of a long running plan. If so, then it's very, very likely that the information channels to Il were deliberately blocked. Hide the truth, let things go to hell, who do they blame in the countryside? The King.

 

King Su Won has been kinda lucky so far....but not as lucky as he thinks. With Mun Deuok in the Wind Tribe and the new general being Hak's little bro as it were, and Gan Te jeun leading the Fire tribe while his older brother is general, and Lili have gained the actual street credit of saving her nation, That is 3 tribes that have personal binds of loyalty and friendship to Yona. And no one cans say she did it for any reason save that it was right. Su-won is a manipulator; that will come back to bite him, because his father was the same cold type. There was a reason their grandfather chose Il over Yu hon...we just haven't found it yet. But elder brother's lust for the battlefield might just give us a clue.



#9
Gabyta07

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I think both of you are too biased with Su-won, you are using your feelings and not facts.

Su-won didn't hesitate, he didn't want to hurt Yona, even thou that was the most logical thing to do.

He wanted her to escape, and since then he does everything so she can escape.

 

Also, the general's actions are responsibility of the king...its like saying it was not the president who ruined the country but the governors, the president was only eating on his bed watching tv the whole time, King II let things go bad, due to he was too  much a coward.

Even Yona, is fixing her dad's mistakes, bc it was her father's mistake.

Su-Won has talked to the generals, he visits the villages, that is what a good king does, he doesn't sit down, and eats to his contentment

Not only that, the so called peace you talked, made Kouka lose a part of its territory, bc King II, was too much of a coward to fight for it.

Even the red dragon, who was kind and good, went to wars.

 

And about Su-Won marrying Yona, it seems everyone likes to forget, that the king oppose, him marrying her.

And as far as Su-won being manipulative, yes he is, but that doesnt mean, being kind and such is not part of his personality.

He just knows when to be kind and when to be ruthless.

 

Plus, nobody knows why the grandfather chose a brother over the other, as much we know, it could have been bc King Il's wife gave birth to the reincarnation to the red dragon.

 

Su-Won is not the villain of the story, but the anti-heroe, I hate him too, but villanaize him more than it is, it is not going to make him disappear, or Yona to attack him, the author has been taken painful steps for us to get to know him, if he was the villain, as you think, she wouldn't show us all the times his does good by his ppl and his soldiers wouldn't even follow him, soldiers that I may remind you, choose to follow him by their own free will. They betray their king bc he was making a mess of things.

 

And again I will say, Yona decided not to kill Su-Won bc Kouka needed a king, and Su-Won was that king, even Yona knows the good he has done for the country.

 

Anyhow this is my last answer to this discussion, we are just going round and roung, you keep repeating the same biased things all over again, btw I read the raws too.


"It's like Tolstoy said. Happiness is an allegory, unhappiness a story"

"And the sense of tragedy-according to Aristotle.comes, ironically enough, not from the protagonist's weak points but from his good qualities. Do you know what I'm getting at? People are drawn deeper into tragedy not by their defects but by their virtues"

Kafka on the shore by Haruki Murakami...the man that was the inspiration for Sen Takatsuki

 


#10
defry

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Facts usually means something that exists, I think myself and even "dale b" stated facts of stuff that happened. Feelings does influence how we perceive stuff but facts and events effect our feelings. Let's not ignore the reason we are frustrated at Su-Woon. If I was in his place and wanted the best for the kingdom, I'd put Yona as the monarch which was proven that she deserves it based on her development, intellect, bravery and even authority. If he was somewhat smart and realized what's going on.. which can be clearly seen and if he sees the results of Yona's path, he'd repent himself, except his arrogant to do that and see the full picture.

 

He doesn't deserve the throne, the same goes for his underlings..... they all lack proper resolution for the best of the kingdom. If it was for the best, Yona would of been killed on the spot to avoid a possible civil war and other issues that can prevent the unity of the kingdom. In the end, they murdered the king and used the cause of the kingdom as an excuse. I imagine that even king Il knew what was happening, that he was gather support from the sky tribe and so on. King Il was really perceptive and dealt amazing sometimes to quench quarrels; he negotiated peace and so on for years. If he was so bad, why wasn't he invaded by all fronts by other kingdoms? There's more to this and there are stuff that hints otherwise, remember that general Mundok really admired and was loyal to the king, not so to Su-Woon, even though he considered him as a grandson.

 

Ps. Again, I repeat.. the possibility of marriage was highly likely if you consider that Su-Woon used his brain, got support of all the tribes which had the most power in the kingdom and then let's not forget Yona, who even if she was spoiled.. she was rather determined since a child, she could of convinced her father sooner or later(the father couldn't spend much time with Yona, she thought Yona liked Hak since a child, he never knew the depths of her feelings, didn't get the chance to know). It's called determination, except Su-Woon didn't have it and took the easy way out. Easy way out is always murder.... why didn't he just lock up the king and hide him away? He killed cause of revenge, that's all.



#11
ponyyy

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Su-Won is... Well. It's easy to say that he's a bad guy for killing Yona's dad, and then attempting to get her offed as well since she saw the murder. But as Yona finds out, the state of Kouka is really not all that great -- meaning that her Dad wasn't as good of a ruler as he maybe could have been. You can say that maybe Su-Won is a flawed character in that he's willing to give up his friendship (Hak) and his love (arguably Yona) for his goal to take the throne.

 

We're still not entirely certain why Su-Won wanted to take the throne, though the mangaka tries to show us hints of why he might be doing so: namely, to bolster up Kouka's strength and conditions, revenge for his father, and whatever isn't mentioned yet. That doesn't mean Su-Won didn't sincerely like Hak or Yona; it just means he's willing to give up that much for his goal.

 

Yona struggles with her understanding of Su-Won, just like us. Though, after being exposed the world outside the palace she's beginning to see why Su-Won was so determined to be Emperor. Hak himself can probably understand to a degree too, but never bring himself to agree or forgive Su-Won (thus never healing from the emotional wounds he dealt them). If you think about it, Hak had trusted Su-Won with a lot of important things -- taking care of Kouka, trusting him not to betray them (Emperor Il, Yona, Hak), and most of all Yona. Hak loves Yona and yet he's willing to entrust her to him. That speaks a lot about how much he trusted Su-Won. And then Su-Won flips the world on its head by killing Emperor Il and chasing down Yona. Hak can't forgive Su-Won, because he also can't forgive himself for placing his trust wrongly.

 

Basically, Su-Won is Mysterious, Yona is a Warrior Princess, and Hak the Noble Stoic Woobie. XD



#12
Kousora

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I started reading this yesterday and caught up with it today, this is all fresh in my mind so let me highlight this one thing that you seem to argue about. Su-Won didn't plan to let Yona know he betrayed her or betrayed Hak. All of this tragedy happened because Yona entered her father's room at the wrong time that's why Su-Won was forced to give out a harsh order of killing her so that it doesn't cause problems in the future.

Now comes my opinion, I don't personally like Su-Won but I don't find any of his actions wrong. Killing a bad king with a nice personality when he  knowing he can do better isn't wrong. If he's willing to take all of the king's responsibility after having his little revenge and doing a better job than his predecessor is simply better than having a shitty king that refuses any form of conflict. Killing king Il's ignorant daughter isn't very wrong as well if it will prevent inner conflict in the country. Ignorance is a sin. Su-Won so far seems like a good king and we really don't have to like him as a person to recognize him as a good king because kings need to compromise a lot of stuff, even human lives, to ensure the prosperity and security of his subjects. My last sentence contradicts itself but that's how bad things are for leaders.

 

To sum it up Su-Won is an asshole but a capable leader.

Just realized that this is my first post.


Edited by Kousora, 30 September 2015 - 08:45 PM.


#13
Maryonmekishiko

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Konichiwa all! 

:)  I started reading this thread, I promise I will finish but in the meantime I want to chip in!  yaaay!

 

i think that we are not factoring that which is hidden:  Soo-Woon as a child did not live 100% of the time with King Il  (even after his father's death) who told him and what? that is a factor that we are not considering.  it might be something as simple as someone in the court of Yu-Hon who had a grudge against King Il that poisoned Soo-Won's childhood.  It could even be the real murdered of Yu-hon!

 

The next thing we are not factoring is King Il's reaction to the sword cut in his hand.  He held the Fire Tribe''s general's blade bare handed, he got cut and walked away smiling with a seriuos cut in his hand... IMHO that speaks of someone who has the strength to do A LOT of things while presenting a different face.  In that part, I think that Il and Woon are the same.

 

you know, I am flabbergasted of how "blonde" Yona is... How many times and in how many ways does Hak needs to say he loves her before little dimwit realizes it?  bahahahaha 



#14
kimagure

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Su-won is a strong king and a charismatic king, but it is unclear yet whether he's either a good king or an effective king.  While Kouka is called a country, it acts more like a confederation or a union of 5 semi-autonomous nations, each of which have their own armies and which exercise independence within their borders.  From what we've seen so far, during the rule of Emperor Il, there were two prosperous nations (Wind and Sky), one formerly prosperous nations under pressure from foreign influences/pressure/drugs (Water), and two badly managed and neglected nations (Fire and Earth).  The Earth nation is ruled by a popular but lazy and unmotivated ruler/general who was so bored by the fact that he couldn't go to war that he let his capital's economy and tourist trade dwindle without even trying to change the situation (Ch. 44) and who let the situation in Port Awa continue FOR 5-10 YEARS.  The Fire nation was ruled by a twice-traitorous ruler/general who levied high taxes, conscripted all able-bodied men to build a strong army, and allowed his officers to engage in human trafficking (Ch. 48) and murder civilians, while doing nothing to stop the rampant poverty and banditry going on in his land.  
 
Although the situation has changed under Su-Won, he's not actually responsible for most of the positive improvements.  While he did independently scout quite a bit, most of his activities related to the Fire nation villages, Port Awa, and the Water nation's drug problem/invasion by Kai was following-up on activities by Yona and her group.  Yona inspired Lili to take the Water's Golden Seal and to act (and her friends did the heavy lifting with the fleet/Hiyou).  Yona inspired Tae-Jun to begin cleaning up Fire villages (and discovered the Iwa seeds).  Yona helped Awa defeat Yang Kum-Ji.  While Su-won may have offered tactical advice during or support afterwards, he really can't be given the credit for fixing those situations.  
 
As Emperor, Su-won has done a number of things that are good, bad, or unclear.  Good: He gained the loyalty of the Earth nation and implemented measures to improve their capital city's economy (Ch. 46).  Bad: He conspired with the Fire nation to put pressure on and actively harm the prosperous Wind nation (Ch. 7) and greatly reduced the country's support from that nation (including its powerful army and incredibly powerful individuals) (Ch. 75).  Mixed: He conquered territory from Southern Kai and Northern Kai and fought off an invasion.  I say this is mixed, because AnY makes it rather clear that this is territory that Kouka originally conquered under Su-won's father and that the people in those areas care less about the border or the ruling flag, but are simply trying to survive (Ch. 65, Ch. 97).  Also because (justified or not), Su-won really took no measures to ensure the protection of the people/citizens affected by any of the military actions (Ch. 72, Ch. 97).  
 
So yeah, he's a strong king who prioritizes obtaining power/authority and the "nation", and a charismatic king who personally investigates problem situations and listens to the voice of the people, but I can't say that he's yet been a good king (unless you give him credit for everything Yona's party has done that he's heard about/supported/followed up on).  It's also currently unclear whether he's a better Emperor than Emperor Il was, given the strength of each individual nation-state and the fact that the two most troubled were ruled by individuals hostile to Emperor Il.
 
It'll be interesting to see how the current arc develops.


#15
palepandora

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but so won tried to kill yona in the beginning.

maybe it was because of the effect of killing her father he was still not thinking that straight or he didn't want her to live a life without her father like he did or he could have been ruthless.



#16
sorichen

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I'm not sure if it's only me.. but has it never occured to anyone, that this was Suwon's plan:

- kill King Il while Yona is sleeping
- marrying Yona because the biggest obstacle to the marriage, King Il, is then gone
- ruling with Yona and Hak by his side

To be honest, with Suwon's personality, I think he could hide the truth for a long time, at least from Yona at that time. Maybe Hak would've been suspicious, but Hak would have trusted his dear friend

So in the end, the one thing Suwon calculated wrongly, was Yona not sleeping and instead going to her father's chambers. Such a small mistake, it is even kind of ridiculous. I guess it was fate.



#17
TiramisuTho

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Su-won is a complicated antagonist, because while he is nice to Yona and to Hak at times, he still has a side of him that is vengeful and hates King Il. On Yona's birthday, he killed the king, and allowed the guards to almost kill Yona.  :batoto_011: But on other occasions, such as the newer arc when Yona and Lady Lili are taken to Sei to be slaves and build the fort, Su-won teams up with Hak to save Lady Lili from being hung, and also shows mixed feelings about Yona. 

 

But personally, I do prefer Hak, first of all, because he has never turned against Yona, he does love her back, and was willing to suppress those feelings for Yona, because at the time she loved Su-won. Plus, there are sooo many cute romance scenes with Hak and Yona. :batoto_032: I rest my case.

 

Also, Hak is faithful to Yona. During the many occasions girls have flirted with him, he never flirted back or had a fling. Hak's funny, strong, and in general an awesome guy.  :batoto_024:



#18
waitingDB5K

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Just saying but... It's easy to be biased against Su Won since we are seeing the story in Yona's side. And we still not know many things about Su Won. I think it's one of more mysterious character even now. Let's not forget that Yona and her side isn't perfect too but I don't see people damn them. Did you forget that Yona killed someone too? Did you think about if he have family or anything else too? Sure Su Won did really bad thing, but in his POV, maybe it was the best thing to do? Maybe King Il was more evil that we think? For now, since we don't know all the truth, I'll still see Su Won in a 'good' side even if I can't forget him (I still think a murder is never a good solution but in same time, we are in a 'time' when these things happened often...)

About his capacity as King, I think he is doing a great job. But really, I hope Kusanagi will reveal some things about him soon.