49 replies to this topic

[Orvieto]

Long time lurker, first post:
I don't think if there's many out there that feel as much as me about this, but I really am detesting the explosion of new characters being introduced.
Let me try to justify myself: I am a very character-oriented person. My top priority in judging a story is by the character dynamics and development. I also, for good or worse, develop a quick attachment initially introduced characters. When a new lead character pops up way in through a story, I often find it hard to accept them into the dynamic of the cast. This usually goes away with exposure, and a good integration of the new character.

However, I find this particularly hard in ToG, whose focus is on complex character dynamics and a well-developed plot. Ever since the beginning of S2, we are suddenly introduced to a plethora of new characters. Initially, I went along with it, but as we found out, they became leading characters for the season, and some (Wangnan) to the level of near-main protagonist status. The problem for me was that the new leading characters are just so generic (for me at least). Many of these characters lack any sort of depth, complexity, or endearing backstory which is also compounded by that there were so many of them.
Perhaps my annoyance was perpetuated by a desire for the old cast to show up again. The magnificent and sometimes long-awaited cameos of S1 characters did not help either.

Obviously, there are some well done characters of S2, but the huge quantity of new characters, and the in-numerous tangents the story developed into made it hard to appreciate the quality of those few.

As I see it, this problem continues into the Train arc. I finally realized this after Ch.137, where we zig-zagged through at least five different sub-plots in the previous couple chapters. I honestly didn't care less about the fight by the new characters against the Mirotic Guardian, nor the fight with the swordsman. Coupled with the weariness of waiting a week for a update, I even skipped some of the pages pertaining them.

There is just too much screen time allotted on too many characters. I felt they were 'mooks' that just wouldn't go away. I understand that there is a message about the Power of Friendship in this manhwa, and I could tell that from Rachel's dream in S1 that Baam would gain many friends and companions, but perhaps this is just too much?

I would honestly prefer if the cast of current was downsized a bit, so that more emphasis could be given on developing pre-existing characters. For me, quality of characters beats the pseudo-diversity a quantity-focused cast brings.

Of course, this is only my opinion. Anyone is free to either agree or disagree.
Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way? How do you guys feel (if you do) about this?

Edited by Orvieto, 09 February 2015 - 06:17 AM.

[svines85]

Oh, I agree, though honestly the "too large a cast" is really only one of the hallmarks of what TOG has become........ and that's a typical shounen (type) title mainly focused on perpetuating itself.

 

All the excess characters are just a necessary part of the shounen formula......that being the author making up new story content that features the favorite characters doing something, but that doesn't actually put the author in danger of taking the main story line into an end run.

 

Yeah, in other words, it's all pretty much just fluff anymore.

Edited by svines85, 09 February 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[death2boredom]

The way I see it, the cast is fine as long as enough unnecessary characters die off while the important characters have a strong enough presence to stay in the readers minds. Outside of that, it make sense to me for TOG to have a large cast of character who we don't get to see very often. The season 1 cast obviously can't travel with Baam since they've already gotten ahead of him on their climb due to his time off, and it is disadvantages for Regulars to wait around on a floor. With the season 2 cast, they needed to swim on their own so that Baam wasn't their to slow their growth or potential downfall by just simply solving every problem for them.

 

Its also been made fairly clear just how large The Tower is so having a lot of characters constantly moving in and out makes more sense than simply a constant cast, and I feel like SIU has at least given good enough reason for why Baam isn't in a stable team as of yet. Most of all, Baam's naive, nice, needy, and friendly personality as well as his charm are great reasons for why he constantly keeps accumulating new people around him when he is left on his own. When you add in the fact that the tests sometimes have limitations on how many team members you can have you then get another reason for characters being separated out from the main story to go on their own separate and currently unseen adventures.

 

Furthermore, by changing the characters that we focus on we are able to experience and see The Tower from different perspectives without having to betray what an already established character is. If you think about it, the season 1 cast is holy unable to show us what the season 2 cast had to go through. Where the season 2 cast clearly represent the average Regular the season 1 cast is most definitely a representation of the rare elite and talented. Now with the Hell Train we need to see a third kind of Regular, the Hell Train Regular. Obviously no one else in the cast can show us this, and having the full cast for either season 1 or season 2 here along for the ride would make it difficult to properly show how things work for this kind of Regular.

 

The problem somewhat comes in from how readers are reacting to the characters. It seems fairly clear that, most likely as SIU intended, a lot of people have become extremely attached to the season 1 cast who were given a lot of time to grow on us, but on the other hand for whatever reason the season 2 cast met with a bit of resistance. For the most part, I believe that the season 2 cast has broken through that resistance, outside of Wangnan lol, but I think its fairly clear the the season 1 cast is still on top. I'd say that SIU does want this to be how it is, but at the same time I don't think he's getting what he really wanted out of the season 2 cast. Now with the Hell Train cast I'd say people are getting used to the idea of TOG having a potentially ever shifting cast.

 

I've went on a little longer than I wanted, and really I don't think I properly responded to you post lol. Once I started thinking of the cast's size all of this ^ just came out At the end of the day though, I'm of the opinion that the cast is fine as it is because Baam is my main focus, but at the same time I do want Baam to stop climbing as a Regular and start climbing as an Irregular by taking tests from the Guardians. Honestly I feel that with season 1 and 2 we've already seen enough of what it is to climb the Tower as a Regular so after this obviously important Hell Train area there really isn't a reason to have Baam go through the trouble of hiding himself to interact with more and more Regulars who can potentially become more characters who we have to remember.

Edited by death2boredom, 09 February 2015 - 03:44 PM.

[Lester]

The season 1 cast obviously can't travel with Baam since they've already gotten ahead of him on their climb due to his time off, and it is disadvantages for Regulars to wait around on a floor.

I don't think they're really that far ahead of him. They failed a test somewhere around 30F and had to wait a year to retry. That happened right after Zygaena, and then there was the two year timeskip before the Workshop Battle. So they had one year to advance from 30F prior to the previous arc. The Hell Express, assuming Baam completes the ride, should catch him up or even put him a little bit ahead of them. That doesn't mean he'll get to climb with them though, since SIU seems not to want to let Baam and Androssi climb together because plot.

[death2boredom]

I don't think they're really that far ahead of him. They failed a test somewhere around 30F and had to wait a year to retry. That happened right after Zygaena, and then there was the two year timeskip before the Workshop Battle. So they had one year to advance from 30F prior to the previous arc. The Hell Express, assuming Baam completes the ride, should catch him up or even put him a little bit ahead of them. That doesn't mean he'll get to climb with them though, since SIU seems not to want to let Baam and Androssi climb together because plot.

I think the whole point of the Hell Train is to have him climb with them again. Isn't the Princess Arm supposed to be next? And yea, what I meant was that they were ahead enough so that the only way to catch up was something like the Hell Train.

Edited by death2boredom, 09 February 2015 - 03:44 PM.

[Random-Webtoon-Fan]

The problem somewhat comes in from how readers are reacting to the characters. It seems fairly clear that, most likely as SIU intended, a lot of people have become extremely attached to the season 1 cast who were given a lot of time to grow on us, but on the other hand for whatever reason the season 2 cast met with a bit of resistance. For the most part, I believe that the season 2 cast has broken through that resistance, outside of Wangnan lol, but I think its fairly clear the the season 1 cast is still on top. I'd say that SIU does want this to be how it is, but at the same time I don't think he's getting what he really wanted out of the season 2 cast. Now with the Hell Train cast I'd say people are getting used to the idea of TOG having a potentially every shifting cast.

 

I agree with most of your points but have to inform that SIU was pretty surprised at how people were attached to Season 1 characters.

 

Can't remember the exact chapter but in one post he decided to let more members from 1st season survive. (Probably the Amigo guy.)

[Lester]

I think the whole point of the Hell Train is to have him climb with them again. Isn't the Princess Arm supposed to be next? Any yea, what I meant was that they were ahead enough so that the only way to catch up was something like the Hell Train.

I hope so, but unless he ditches Team Tangsooyook (please, SIU) there's going to be a problem with character bloat due to it. Which, I suppose, ties into the whole purpose of this thread.

[death2boredom]

I hope so, but unless he ditches Team Tangsooyook (please, SIU) there's going to be a problem with character bloat due to it. Which, I suppose, ties into the whole purpose of this thread.

Yea, well with Cassano here I'm at least hoping that the issues with him get resolved in this arc. If they do I'd imagine that at least a few of the season 2 cast will be done with, but I'm sorry to say that I feel like Wangnan's story will be carried over into the Princess arc with how much its being implied that he's related to Zahard.

[salvatore]

but at the same time I do want Baam to stop climbing as a Regular and start climbing as an Irregular by taking tests from the Guardians. 

My wish too, it will really be disappointing if he reaches to the top hiding like this.

[death2boredom]

My wish too, it will really be disappointing if he reaches to the top hiding like this.

Its that, and I want to see some more Guardian designs as well as see what you can get from taking their tests. There is so much mystery in this story and Baam is still so in the dark and yet he has not gone to the beings that should most likely be able to enlighten him a bit. No one outside of the family heads should be able to touch if if he were to get help from the Guardians, but at the same time Headon is maybe an obstacle in this.

[gus]

I think the whole point of the Hell Train is to have him climb with them again. Isn't the Princess Arm supposed to be next? And yea, what I meant was that they were ahead enough so that the only way to catch up was something like the Hell Train.

 

i doubt it

 

SIU well probably troll us by making them c class once they reunite

[towerofsky]

I'm fond of both the Season 1 and 2 casts. As for why most people are more attached to the S1 batch, I think it's because 1) they are the ones that we grew into the series with, and 2) they were introduced at the beginning of the story, when SIU had much more room and time to develop them properly.

 

And I really mean develop in the sense that we were able to see them react and mess up and change and bond together in so many different situations. Nowadays, the story has so many characters that the furthest SIU is able to develop new characters is usually through their physical appearance and 1 stand-out trait. I know it's relatively early in the arc, but how many of the new characters have been shown to us with anything but very surface-level traits?

• Sir Aka: looks like a woman and is huge
• Daniel: chews candy and lies ambiguously
• Yura Ha: pretty idol star with some kind of sob story past
• Boro: martial artist with a past with Sir Aka

They just lack depth, and it's hard to see any potential development of their personalities.

 

On the other hand, when we met the first season's cast, you knew they were going to get fleshed out more because of the way they were introduced.

• Anak: super strong lizard girl with a weapon Rak noticed... and it turned out she was a half-Zahard princess.
• Leesoo: no strong combat skills but always managing to just barely scrape by
• Ho: seemingly normal guy/girl trap but slowly devolves into a jealous wreck

I don't hang around here enough to know that Wangnan isn't liked here, but even he and the other S2 main cast members were fleshed out pretty well. I really enjoyed Miseng-Akraptor's daughter/father relationship, Wangnan's dynamic of cheerful, keep-trying attitude vs. his weird Zahard ring and past, Yihwa's struggle in coming to terms with her family's shady affairs, and Horyang's background with the Workshop and ignition weapons. Personally, even if they're not as unreasonably strong as the S1 cast, I think the S2 cast is pretty solid in terms of character development.

 

But none of the Hell Train arc characters are very compelling or even make me want to see them more. 

[Lester]

Its that, and I want to see some more Guardian designs as well as see what you can get from taking their tests. There is so much mystery in this story and Baam is still so in the dark and yet he has not gone to the beings that should most likely be able to enlighten him a bit. No one outside of the family heads should be able to touch if if he were to get help from the Guardians, but at the same time Headon is maybe an obstacle in this.

Considering that we've seen at least twice that the Guardians have been in cahoots with FUG (Headon, and the 2F Guardian creating the exact test that FUG needed to capture Baam), it's not that surprising to me that Baam would be somewhat leery of approaching them for anything.

[lyaka1]

I'm fond of both the Season 1 and 2 casts. As for why most people are more attached to the S1 batch, I think it's because 1) they are the ones that we grew into the series with, and 2) they were introduced at the beginning of the story, when SIU had much more room and time to develop them properly.

 

And I really mean develop in the sense that we were able to see them react and mess up and change and bond together in so many different situations. Nowadays, the story has so many characters that the furthest SIU is able to develop new characters is usually through their physical appearance and 1 stand-out trait. I know it's relatively early in the arc, but how many of the new characters have been shown to us with anything but very surface-level traits?

• Sir Aka: looks like a woman and is huge
• Daniel: chews candy and lies ambiguously
• Yura Ha: pretty idol star with some kind of sob story past
• Boro: martial artist with a past with Sir Aka

They just lack depth, and it's hard to see any potential development of their personalities.

 

On the other hand, when we met the first season's cast, you knew they were going to get fleshed out more because of the way they were introduced.

• Anak: super strong lizard girl with a weapon Rak noticed... and it turned out she was a half-Zahard princess.
• Leesoo: no strong combat skills but always managing to just barely scrape by
• Ho: seemingly normal guy/girl trap but slowly devolves into a jealous wreck

I don't hang around here enough to know that Wangnan isn't liked here, but even he and the other S2 main cast members were fleshed out pretty well. I really enjoyed Miseng-Akraptor's daughter/father relationship, Wangnan's dynamic of cheerful, keep-trying attitude vs. his weird Zahard ring and past, Yihwa's struggle in coming to terms with her family's shady affairs, and Horyang's background with the Workshop and ignition weapons. Personally, even if they're not as unreasonably strong as the S1 cast, I think the S2 cast is pretty solid in terms of character development.

 

But none of the Hell Train arc characters are very compelling or even make me want to see them more. 

 

I agree with you on almost every count, but I think it would be fair to point out that we have only known Aka, Boro, Daniel and the rest for a very short while now, and we've only had small glimses into their psyche (surviving the Hell Train, the Slayer Candidate, a very beautiful woman in Boro's past, a name-Roen...)

I would compare it to Anak in S1 before we knew she was half-Zahard: there was a mystery surrounding her, but we didn't really "get" any of her internal struggles (Or Akraptor before we realized he saw Miseng as a daughter). Plus, there's a pursuit going on right now: it's an action-filled sequence, so it's not the best time to show character's deeper nature, it simply isn't the focus right now.

[The Corinthian]

You know, TowerOfSky. I think you are right! A lot of people have been complaining that the current arc is slow and should speed up. But personally I feel it is the opposite. That the arc feels slow because we never get any character development. The new team around Baam pre ticket-tournament never interacted or got personal with one another. They were just a group of random strangers that worked together without being sociable or curious what so ever. They never even bothered to check what the other team members were good at. Electing to finding out in direct combat.

 

Some people though that this was the story moving slowly as nothing interesting happened. But I see it as the story advancing so quickly that we never have time to see anything interesting happen. This is the effect of the story getting lots of new characters and scenarios without having the time to really flesh them out. 

 

It happened at the end of the work shop tournament too. It got really rushed as SIU wanted to finish a lot of complicated storylines quickly so that he could go and have his break and get his wrist looked at. Resulting in them feeling flat and "transporty".

Edited by The Corinthian, 10 February 2015 - 06:33 PM.

[Anvil]

• Sir Aka: looks like a woman and is huge
• Daniel: chews candy and lies ambiguously
• Yura Ha: pretty idol star with some kind of sob story past
• Boro: martial artist with a past with Sir Aka

I don't think they're as undeveloped as you're saying they are:

 

Aka, besides being the most beautiful organism in the tower, seemingly has some motivation to get on the hell train which has been hinted at. He might be involved with the slayer candidate plot as well, so he's a lot more than a pretty face.

 

Daniel is probably one of the more interesting characters that's been introduced, imo. His tattoos, the constant eating, the OCD murdering, the "for x people" skills, his lying nature and the possibility that he's Sachi Faker are all things that add to his character, and he's still pretty new.

 

Yura Ha's useless, no one cares about her. However, she does have some kind of secret identity and was able to get a high class item and fame despite possibly not actually being from the Ha family.

 

Boro has survived the train a few times and has his memory loss thing going for him. I like his personality too, but that's just my opinion. The friction between Boro, Aka and Baam will also be interesting to read when Baam's identity as Viole comes out too.

[death2boredom]

The Hell Train characters have really only just been introduced so I don't understand why anyone would be looking for any major depth or character development from them. Furthermore, we were given a scene with Hwa Ryun telling Baam to find people he's willing to discard to establish that at the very least we won't be getting to know these characters very well within the initial part of the Arc. Of course, given Baam's nature, I expect this to change, but I also wouldn't mind if it didn't. The Tower is supposed to be large and harsh place where people die at the flip of a coin, and so I wouldn't mind having an Arc where characters are simply introduced and then discarded without much development. None the less, Boro, Aka, Yura, and Daniel are clearly going to have more story and depth added to them later, and I know this because their characters have been built well enough to show me that there will be more to them. 

 

I think Iyaka1's point of this being like Anak fits well. I'll add a bit to that by saying don't confuse mystery and purposeful withholding of information for a lack of depth or development. Just give the story enough time to move out of this phase where it would be out of place to have any kind of major character development for the new characters. With Rachael right within Baam's reach, I, and maybe Baam too, could care less about some new character's backstory. I would honestly love if Daniel tried to talk about himself only for Baam to ignore him to get to Rachael.

Edited by death2boredom, 10 February 2015 - 06:23 PM.

[The Corinthian]

The friction between Boro, Aka and Baam will also be interesting to read when Baam's identity as Viole comes out too.

Somehow I get the feeling that this wont happen. They will learn that a slayer candidate is with them on the train just like the last time. But for comedic reasons they wont realize that it's Baam. Ran will be snide an call them idiots without explaining anything.

[death2boredom]

From the way things are right now, it would seem Boro may find out Baam was/is a Slayer candidate within the next few chapters.

[Fairy King Harlequin]

We have multiple threads that talk about the mass of new characters.  I don't mind it, but SIU said the tower is unforgiving and the survival rate is very low.  Right now I can only count three people that died within Baam, Koon and Wangnan's group.  I'm just throwing a number at there and say we have 40 characters that climb with our regulars and only 3 was killed.  3 out of 40 is super good and that's not counting the other new characters that will show up.  SIU isn't following his theme about the tower, at this rate we will have 120+ regulars becoming rankers.  I don't want red-shirts to be the only ones dying just to meet SIU's survival rate quarter.  To stay true, he needs to kill a lot more of our regulars.  At this rate we will have a soap-opera story with many characters, which will take a mass of chapters just to move the story along.

Edited by Fairy King Harlequin, 10 February 2015 - 07:07 PM.