123 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

As per the previous discussion in Mr smith wimps out thread, just because a culture is a certain way, doesn't mean everyone inside that sphere goes along with that.  So to say no one going against the grain is the only accurate way to go is BS. 

 

But these aspects of the story isn't happenstance or side things to other stuff, it's becoming more and more apparent that the author is going out of his way to make ownership of women as though it were a good or at least acceptable thing.

 

Every story Arc save one has said this, and even that is related to such.

1. Dispute over ownership of a women with claims of ownership being that of marriage verses blood.

2. Side story of relative facing the unacceptable possibility of being older and not married, and their efforts to get her a husband.

3. Story about even the remotest of connections of a man in a womans life, meaning ownership of that women. Despite the man being only related by marriage to a ex-mother in law,(which is a exceedingly slim connection) he was able to decide who she was to marry and not marry, she was still his property, because he was a man, and she was a women(aka a thing to be owned). Now this wasn't specifically romanticized, but it was treated as inevitable/natural, the MC Mr Smith giving no effort at all to try to help the women he had agreed to marry and presumably loved.

4. Twins so desperate to get married, they resorted to "tomboyish" (gasp!) pranky behavior in their effort to to get married. Literally trying to catch husbands. Well its resolved when their father sells them off to the sons of his friend.

5. Women can't be with her friend and help her financially unless she gets her husband to marry her as a second wife. She was lonely in her gilded cage after all, and the only option is for another women to be trapped in the cage too, even with the nicest of husbands. (author says, see, polygamy has a good side too, I say, just let her visit her friend and provide her money)

 

And finally the invasion arc, which isn't directly something that makes ownership of women sound good or natural, but it's very much part of arc 1 which is about ownership of a women.

 

You want to say that's only about historical accuracy? I say that's BS, clearly the authors pushing the subject. But even if it were just about historical accuracy, fine, let that part of history burn away and be forgotten. It's a past ugly part of human nature, well it exists nowadays too, but to a lesser degree.

Edited by truepurple, 29 December 2014 - 02:55 PM.

[TetsuDan]

You're arguing from a position of leisure. In locations without reliable law enforcement, or even a decent judicial system, you are vulnerable to literally everything. If you can't defend yourself in unarmed combat against an unspecified number of adult males of at least average build, you pretty much owe your life to your government because they are the only reason you've not yet been raped and/or murdered.

Without fear of consequence, nobody really has any reason (as far as they care) to leave you alone. That's something we take for granted every single day. In societies like those in this manga, laws are enforced on a personal level. Typically by family members, most often male. The only fear a nefarious minded male in such a society has of attacking a female is the protection of or retribution from her male family, unless your family is rich and can afford to pay other men to protect/avenge you. You cannot even begin to comprehend the vulnerability of a woman in a society like this, especially when she is no longer afforded male protection.

This "anything you can do, I can do better" female empowerment spiel you so fervently want to preach is simply inaccurate here, given the lifestyles of the women in these societies. A woman in a society like this who could physically defend herself against an adult male of average build was a rarity, at best. For a number of reasons, it just wasn't common. So, they absolutely needed to be protected by able-bodied males. In fact, the majority of women in first-world countries today are still under the protection of mostly males. Males still make up the majority of the police force in at least the majority of the world's civilized countries.
I know you want to say something to the effect of "That doesn't give them the right to oppress women!" and you'd be absolutely right. However, in a society like what's featured in this manga, there is no police force. There is no unified group of people willing to risk being shunned by their entire community to equalize women in their society. So, while you're comfortably typing away on your electronic device within the security of a nation with a government funded police force, you can say whatever you want about how someone else writes their story of women in less civilized societies. However, understand that your making a fuss about it from the safety of your position means absolutely nothing.

"... let that part of history burn away and be forgotten" So, we should burn every book that mentions anything uncomfortable that may have occurred in the past? And we should censor every literary artist because you, personally, don't want to read something? If you don't want to read it, you don't have to read it. Our literary freedoms are greater than your personal distaste.

[truepurple]

We only need to remember such history, in order not to repeat it, romanticizing it is completely unnecessary.

[homogenized]

So basically whenever something is created regarding historical facts that are unsavory by society at the time of the work's creation, it should speak of them only in either a matter-of-fact way or a condemning way?

Edited by homogenized, 30 December 2014 - 02:34 AM.

[truepurple]

It's a story with the author taking liberties with what kind of world is shown, any way you slice, like any fictional story.

 

 Does this want to be a historical documentary? It's failed horribly then.

 

Does it want to be entertaining? Failed there too, too preachy, and over something that's not even good in the first place.

[homogenized]

Does that mean "yes"?

Edited by homogenized, 30 December 2014 - 04:59 PM.

[TetsuDan]

It's a story with the author taking liberties with what kind of world is shown, any way you slice, like any fictional story.

 

 Does this want to be a historical documentary? It's failed horribly then.

 

Does it want to be entertaining? Failed there too, too preachy, and over something that's not even good in the first place.

I'm entertained. Many other readers are obviously entertained. You seem to be among a minority, here. Clearly, it's entertaining. Perhaps not to you, personally, but you're not the only reader. Maybe you should consider that before waging a word-war over fiction literature. That's really all any of this amounts to, anyway: Words.

Of course the author is taking liberties with "what kind of world is shown" in his manga, it's his story. When you write a story, you can tell it however you like. Meanwhile, your entirely self-important ranting amounts to nothing. Armchair warmongering doesn't make you a better person. Nobody's packing up to go to less prosperous countries and wage war for civil liberties because you posted a comment on a manga reader website. Nobody's going to these places to rescue and protect women who can't protect themselves because you don't like how a mangaka writes his story. All you're doing is whining. From a position of security. From a position of leisure. You're preaching about injustice from safely behind the bodies of your government. And what are you so angry about? What is such a travesty to you that you simply cannot control yourself enough to move on? A book. Fiction literature.

Meanwhile, there's another fiction manga that is absolutely rife with sexism against males (Prison School) and I haven't seen a comment from you on that page even once. Where's your outrage over that? Is it not oppressive of women enough for you? It entertains me, even as a male who recognizes how sexist it is, and yet here you are... only here... whining about how a writer writes his story. It's silly.

Edited by TetsuDan, 30 December 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[truepurple]

@homogenized

I am not going to answer statements that pretend to be questions.

 

@

TetsuDan

Because its not at all comparable, show me one instance of a male being viewed as nothing but property in that entire series. Also, do you fail to grasp the difference between a comedy and a drama?

[homogenized]

@TetsuDan
Kaoru Mori is female.

@truepurple
If you're not going to answer, than I shall assume it to be "yes", as that what it looks like to me.

Edited by homogenized, 30 December 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[truepurple]

@homogenized

What a convenient argument, you win if I reply or if I don't reply. If I reply to your false question, it would be the same as agreeing to its false premise. If I don't reply, you say that is confirmation of your statement. Very convenient indeed.

 

It would be like if I asked you "So when you hurt women in your life and treat them like property, do you justify that by calling that historical recreatement?" Then if you don't answer I can assume that to be a "yes"

Edited by truepurple, 30 December 2014 - 05:35 PM.

[homogenized]

Well unlike you I will actually answer: No.

If you want me to expand my answer, ask and I shall.

It still looks to me, from the things you previously posted that I have read, like you want all works regarding parts of history that do not fit the morality of the era the work itself was created in to either condemn them or otherwise only convey the unembellished facts of the matter; and upon asking to be sure, you have done nothing to convince me otherwise. It also looks like you believe if the fiction is not unrealistic in the manner you desire (such as the protagonist overcoming all odds to achieve an ending that's all hunky dory for all but perhaps the "villain", somehow), said fiction is objectively bad.

Edited by homogenized, 30 December 2014 - 08:58 PM.

[TetsuDan]

@homogenized

I am not going to answer statements that pretend to be questions.

 

@

TetsuDan

Because its not at all comparable, show me one instance of a male being viewed as nothing but property in that entire series. Also, do you fail to grasp the difference between a comedy and a drama?

Almost the entire female student body of that school treats the few male students as objects to be shunned and/or abused throughout most of the series so far. In fact, in the early chapters of the manga, all of the male students in the series are even told they are basically property of the USC. Read the manga yourself, it's glaringly obvious. Prison School is also a drama. It's even tagged as such. Everything is comparable. You simply refuse to see it.

That you would even presume to write off what the boys in that manga suffer through, I'm getting the impression that you're just as sexist as what you're soapboxing about. Only, you don't realize it because it's not against women. Preaching against sexism from a self-proclaimed position of moral superiority while, at the same time, being sexist is hypocritical.
 

@TetsuDan
Kaoru Mori is female.

@truepurple
If you're not going to answer, than I shall assume it to be "yes", as that what it looks like to me.

Duly noted. Thanks for the correction.

Edited by TetsuDan, 31 December 2014 - 12:23 AM.

[DarkThug]

Remember, this is historical manga. It should base on how the society worked back then, not on how it work now. You can't force our modern moral onto characters in that era. Man owning woman is a thing back then. It's not about right and wrong. It was how the world worked. Actually, this is what this manga is all about, Life of women in days and age where woman right didn't exist (or human right for that matter). Of course, It is not gonna be fair for them. Sure, there may be few individuals who stand up for themselves and went against it. However, if you think NONE of them went along with it, you are in denial.

 

Also, Mori sensei made Polygamy a solution in this arc doesn't mean she (Yes, she is a she) support it or promote it in this day and age. In this manga, 12 years old Kaluk is considered adult and 20 years old Amir is considered last leg for marriage. Do you think Mori sensei suggest that today middle school boys should get himself a girl and all high school girls should get marry before they graduate ? No, not at all.

 

Does Anis's case unrealistic and over romanticize ? IMHO, it's convincing enough. I would say Kaluk's family acceptance of Amir's independency and forward thinking is way less probable by those days standard. Not that I have problem with her story either.

[truepurple]

@TetsuDan

It being tagged a drama is meaningless, if you don't see that Prison Schools story exists for the two purposes of sexualizing women and humor only, then you've not really read it. They committed a 'crime', and were duly punished like any dominatrix working on a masochist would enjoy (and have enjoyed in the series) And despite that the girls in the series reject the boys at first, its treated as a matter of tsundre pride and ignorance, even that one short haired glasses girl that was supposedly super strict and anti-male, has turned out to be a true pervert and delusionally crushing on the MC.

 

BTW, they didn't have to be in the School Prison, they could just be expelled, something the guys do not want for how it would look on their papers and more importantly, it's a school full of unusually attractive girls where they are the only males aside from the principle! Besides, eventually girls instead of the guys are in prison.

 

Its funny how I am being accused of trying to be morale police, when two morales/ideals are being pressed from the other side, and those two ideals are what I am taking issue with. Two ideals that interfere with the quality of the story IMO.

 

Ideal/Morale

 

1. It must be historically accurate.

 

This is not a historical documentary, nor historical art, there is absolutely no need for historical accuracy. And I don't believe historical accuracy is even that strong in this comic anyway. 

 

2.  Ownership of females can be a good thing too.

 

I don't care if the author is female. There are dark colored people who have prejudice against others for having dark skin, there are homophobic homosexuals, the author being female is not proof of anything.

 

Not only does the author make most all of the stories in this comic about ownership of women, like it was the beginning and end of their culture, she does it in a unrealistically positive light. Yes, there would be many females, most females even, that generally embrace the culture of ownership of women as a matter of necessity. But in this comic, all the women embrace it whole-heartedly and with fervor. And most of the males aside from story arc 3 and some of the blood ownership males in story arc one, are kind accommodating types that don't make the women regret it. By reading this comic, if you knew nothing about such a society at all, you would think there was almost no ugly side to any of this, and there is absolutely a ugly side to all of this.  

 

• Female Genital Mutilation. (if you aren't familiar with how ugly and horrid this practice is, look it up, in its more extreme forms its scooping out the entire genital area and sewing it up with only a hole for peeing left)                                                       
• Rape (and all rape is considered to be the females fault, it is most likely the female only that is punished, if a rape is found out, unless its a violation of ownership, then maybe the male is punished too)                                             .
• Abuse (sexual and otherwise) of spouse (of course spousal rape is not considered rape at all)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              .
• Forced marriages that can involve extreme age differences and known abusers, for the benefit of the males of the family (like was mentioned in arc 1 in the abstract)                                                                                                                             .
• Abuse (sexual and otherwise) of relatives (because of general attitude, its extremely unlikely for a girl to report something like a relative raping her or something, or even have the chance)                                                                        .
• Women treated as slave labor, doing most all the work, even if it means their hands and feet are falling apart.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   .
• All of the above easily possible with even prepubescent girls.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                .
• Also, females aren't allowed to be educated or earn money or do really anything other then servicing the men who own them and sometimes other females in that household.                                                                                                              .
• Women don't even have rights to their children, it's the husband that owns the kids. The husband can deprive a mother of their child. If the husband dies, the husbands family can claim the child and take it away from the mother.                                                                                    
• Even murder, females being killed solely for being female, even babies, can be found in most any male dominated female owning culture.

Most of the above is treated as though nonexistent in the comic, where I'm sure it was big back then and there, as its big in any male dominated society that treats women as objects to be owned. Someone said in the Mr Smith wimps out thread that the author isn't trying to sugar-coat things, that is absolutely false, the author is most definitely sugar coating everything.

Edited by truepurple, 01 January 2015 - 07:28 PM.

[homogenized]

For the record, I only pointed out that Kaoru Mori is female because I saw the incorrect pronouns were being used. It's why I try to default to the sex and gender neutral "they" when online.

Edited by homogenized, 01 January 2015 - 06:40 PM.

[TetsuDan]

If genres are meaningless, Otoyomegatari being a drama is just as much so.

No, Prison School does not exist expressly for those purposes. They are elements, just as ownership and abuse of males were. Comedy, drama, fanservice, oppression, abuse; all of these elements exist within both works and yet you dismiss one purely because it favors its females.
The boys committed a curiosity, a misdemeanor, and were literally tortured for it. If you honestly believe succumbing to one's abuse to the point of enjoyment is reason to ignore said abuse or suggest it is anything but then you should probably do some research on Stockholm Syndrome.
Oppression is oppression. You should read what you're writing. Imagine these stories with the sexes reversed. You'd be railing about Prison School and dismissing Otoyomegatari.

You've given me cause to think the only reason you believe this story isn't historically accurate is because the husbands aren't constantly raping their perpetually sobbing wives and sodomizing their children between burning and pillaging everybody else's homes. That you have some sort of personal vendetta against all marriage and males, in general, because a minor fraction of the world has done some bad things. This is the picture your ardent preaching paints and it is absurd.

No, not all of the females in Otoyomegatari embrace "ownership" "whole-heartedly and with fervor". Many of them embraced marriage and love, clearly a concept that is foreign to someone as self-important as you, and some of them did not. Some of them were obviously displeased with the details of their marriages, and some (including Amir) continue to oppose traditional gender roles especially for married women in their society. In this latest story, the wife opposes traditional gender roles by making successive demands of her husband. Spin that however you see fit, what they've been doing has proven them far freer than you attribute any of the females in this entire work.

Do you think everybody is happy and prosperous anywhere in the world? Every nation has its murderers, its thieves, its abusers. Should every story be a tragedy? Horror? Should every book have nothing in it but sorrow and malice because it exists to some degree everywhere in the world? Every story should have a rapist? A fatal accident? That is depressing and, at the same time, ridiculous. There is already conflict and strife in this story. It does not need to pervade every single panel of every page of every chapter of every volume purely because some bad things have happened in the real world and you, personally, want literally everything to be saturated with doom and gloom for it.

As previously noted, If you don't like the manga then you do not have to read it. However, you should stop pretending you're fighting for anything but a pat on your own back.

Edited by TetsuDan, 02 January 2015 - 02:11 AM.

[DarkThug]

1. If you don't think historical manga should be historical accurate, I have nothing else to say.

 

2. If you think man can also own woman with love and care is not historical accurate, I have nothing much to say either.

I guess all modern setting manga feature loving family, faithful husband/wife, happy children are all lie. Since broken family, adultery, problem child do exist.

 

3. If you think this manga sugarcoat everything and purposefully ignore any ugliness of such tradition.

Guess what ? you said it yourself, 2 (out of 4?) arcs deal with such thing. That is not small percentage at all. Unless you want, as Tetsudan suggested, every arc to be about man constantly raping and abusing woman with no hope for future at all. In Smith wimp out arc, the abuser won out and you were bitching about it. I can't imagine how you will react if all the arc were like that.

Edited by DarkThug, 02 January 2015 - 05:28 AM.

[truepurple]

I numbered them, so how can you arrive at the number 4?

 

In Smith wimp out arc, the abuser won out and you were bitching about it.

 

 

I think you describing my opinion as "bitching" and contemplating how I would act in other circumstances constitutes a ad hominem fallacy. Aside from that...

 

You totally missed my point there despite four pages of discussion. Makes me wonder if I am wasting my time talking to you if this is the extent of your ability to pay attention to what others say. Well I am talking to others who would read this too so, I respond anyway.

 

The point was that Smith doesn't even try, not even a little bit. Point here is that it is treated as completely and utterly natural. Even in the most extreme of circumstances where it hurts them greatly, and even when chances to resist are at its highest, females in this comic will blindly go along with whatever. And even a outsider who comes from a better culture in this regard won't lift a finger. 

 

If Smith had given some effort, and ran up against some difficulty, my complaint against that arc would have been much less. That such was the issue with arc 3/"Smith wimps out" thread, is even evident in the title of said thread. Even arc 3 was a bitter pill that was sugar coated. It's not like they showed us him being horrid, that was just rumor, (and it was probably going to be to the son, not the step dad) and its not like Smith and the girl were really in love, since he wouldn't even do a little for her, so what difference does it make if they are broken apart. It was even left with a sugar coated "happy" ending that the step-mother was able to find a well to do benefactor to help her step daughter get a proper marriage.(since a girl being unmarried is the worst crime of all)

 

Arc 1, sure there was a theoretical evil abuser that beat his wives to death, but he was only mentioned in passing, and this abstract villain was in contrast to her noble kind current husband to rescue her from and to fuel the community conflict in arc 1 that leads to invasion latter on.

 

All five arcs were made much sweeter then is good for any realism creature. Made sweeter because the author is selling this as a perfectly reasonable substitute ideal to modern sensibilities. To find even one husband like in arcs 1 and 5 is highly unlikely in such a environment, much less two. For a male to be timid and accommodating to his wife, allowing her some independent freedom in a culture that consistently teaches them that females are inferior servants at best is somewhat laughable.

 

Lets substitute this with another theoretical comic.

A comic about the adventures of happy incestial families.

 

Arc 1.

Family A. Nine year old daughter marries her father. It's a lovely romance, both shy and taking things slow, he hasn't even had sex with her yet. She has a wicked uncle that wanted her instead. According to the family rules first family member to claim a unmarried child gets her. The uncle argues that since the daughter isn't pregnant with her fathers child yet, she is can still be claimed, and he needs her to use her to progress in his carrier.  So a civil war squabble occurs in the family, the happily married daughter/father couple wins out in the end, but the uncle plots with some home invaders latter to steal the families wealth. But for now Father and daughter live happily with the rest of the family, daughter learning to take on the duel responsibilities as daughter and wife of her father.

 

Arc 2

Second older son is looking for spouse too. Is already 12 so he really wants to find someone fast, but his Father is already lovey dovey with sister and doesn't want another spouse...

 

 

Eh. I could go on but too much work. Analogy point is, extreme situations like that may exist in the world, but are unlikely. But if it exists somewhere, it could be called "historical accuracy" And is being sold as something acceptable, a reasonable alternative by author, even though it is anything but. 

 

@TetsuDan

Not what I said. You distort my words in order to discount them, a Strawman fallacy.  

For one, Otoyomegatari could be about something other then marriage issues (except that author is clearly on a crusade to sell this ideal) Also, the author could not sugar coat, which doesn't mean everythings going to be gloom and doom instead. And "historical accuracy" is already gone, and this is not the right format for such anyway. 

Edited by truepurple, 03 January 2015 - 09:19 AM.

[TetsuDan]

What isn't what you said? I typed quite a bit, so it would help if you were more precise. You want to point fingers and blame people for distorting words and intentions and yet here you are, distorting the author's intentions based on your own personal preferences. You're assuming the author is "clearly on a crusade" of some sort when you cannot possibly know. You're making judgments based on prejudice because there are themes in this manga you personally don't like.

You are no authority on what anyone else is allowed to write or how they're allowed to write it. If you think these stories are "sugar coated" or inaccurate, that is your opinion and you are free to it. Just know that, especially by this point, nobody else has any reason to take you seriously.

You complain about all the females in this manga being nothing but subservient possessions and yet, when I provide two clear examples of that assertion being false, you complain about them being too positive a representation of realistic circumstances. You complain about the males in this manga being too kind and supportive of the women but at the same time go on incessantly about Mr. Smith's moment of indecision (while conveniently dismissing all other mentions in this manga of males mistreating females). Make up your mind, please.

[truepurple]

@TetsuDan

 

It only seems like I'm contradicting myself to you because you apparently still don't understand what I am saying.