Potato Spud
Edited by Raydnt, 19 April 2016 - 05:35 PM.
Potato Sprout
Edited by LoLyeah, 18 April 2016 - 11:11 AM.
Potato Spud
to chuck in my two cents (while avoiding the random pissing match earlier in the thread):
I liked the WN quite a bit. I think the characters were done quite well to portray and explain their motivations, their opinions and personalities.
I personally think Tate no Yuusha (as a whole) is 100 time better than Mushoku Tensei (as a whole). Mushoku started out well, bounced between good and bad from volume 8 and then became total pants on head around volume 16 where i dropped it. TnY, sure it has times where it's not great but when it comes down to the main plot it does those sections well.
I always wonder about the hate directed towards TnY, but people all have different opinions.
on the topic of WNs in general, i think they're a vital component in the overall culture sphere. judging whether or not they're good is only a matter of opinion because people will always look at things differently from someone else. Arguing about it is kinda pointless.
YOU MANAGED TO READ MUSHOKU TENSEI FOR SO LONG???([{WARNING!!! SPOILERS AHEAD. READ AT YOUR OWN PERIL!}])
.
.
.
YOU'VE BEEN WARNED, DON'T BLAME ME AFTERWARDS
First came volume 6(I think this was the one with the best girl leaving for training?) completely destroying one of my favorite characters, she was a pure sheltered kid raised with little to no knowledge on sexual education, she would absolutely never ask him to sleep with her, it makes no sense for a selfish but pure and sheltered princess to even think about it. But well, this is a LN, self service is one of it's perks, I had to ignore this little(absurd, in fact) setback. Then came mc's reaction to this event, he was shocked but given time i thought he would remeber that she did say that she thought she was far too weak to continue traveling with him, by then i was pretty sure that he would think back and remember this fact, that he was a bit shocked by her departure to even think rationally, but he would eventually remeber the conversartion he had before losing his conscience... oh boy , was i wrong.
Not only did he forget this event, and even made her into a villain in his mind, he eventually got interested in another "girl" to which he admited early in the 8 volume that he only had sexual interest for her, and then magically fell in love with her, in only one night, after he found out that "girl's" identity, being his "childhood' friend. Yeah the same one he said in volume 5, that he only thought of her as a little sister or a kid(which is true, at that point in time, when both of them played together, he and childhood friend, he was more conscious of the fact that he was living a new life, and that he was in fact "older", so he did treat her as a kid).
Needless to say I only read volume 9 because I deluded myself into thinking i couldn't get even more disappointed than i already was.
Oh, well, congratulations to you, for holding onto hope for so long.
Edited by Bloody Sorcerer, 21 April 2016 - 12:02 AM.
Potato
YOU MANAGED TO READ MUSHOKU TENSEI FOR SO LONG???([{WARNING!!! SPOILERS AHEAD. READ AT YOUR OWN PERIL!}])
.
.
.
YOU'VE BEEN WARNED, DON'T BLAME ME AFTERWARDS
First came volume 6(I think this was the one with the best girl leaving for training?) completely destroying one of my favorite characters, she was a pure sheltered kid raised with little to no knowledge on sexual education, she would absolutely never ask him to sleep with her, it makes no sense for a selfish but pure and sheltered princess to even think about it. But well, this is a LN, self service is one of it's perks, I had to ignore this little(absurd, in fact) setback. Then came mc's reaction to this event, he was shocked but given time i thought he would remeber that she did say that she thought she was far too weak to continue traveling with him, by then i was pretty sure that he would think back and remember this fact, that he was a bit shocked by her departure to even think rationally, but he would eventually remeber the conversartion he had before losing his conscience... oh boy , was i wrong.
Not only did he forget this event, and even made her into a villain in his mind, he eventually got interested in another "girl" to which he admited early in the 8 volume that he only had sexual interest for her, and then magically fell in love with her, in only one night, after he found out that "girl's" identity, being his "childhood' friend. Yeah the same one he said in volume 5, that he only thought of her as a little sister or a kid(which is true, at that point in time, when both of them played together, he and childhood friend, he was more conscious of the fact that he was living a new life, and that he was in fact "older", so he did treat her as a kid).
Needless to say I only read volume 9 because I deluded myself into thinking i couldn't get even more disappointed than i already was.
Oh, well, congratulations to you, for holding onto hope for so long.
SPOILERS AHEAD on Mushoku Tensei.
What you didn't seem to understand or seemed to forget was that a big part of Rudeus's life was his sexual drive. At THAT moment in the novel he was completely impotent. He was impotent for many months and was completely depressed, thinking that he would never be able to fix his condition (His mind was craving but his body didn't actually function.). He even felt his whole being was less than a man because of being unable to "Get it up". So when he finally understood who she was and his body finally reacted to something, he tunnelvisioned.. He didn't really think too much of how he saw her previously, because that DID NOT matter. He understood that she held feelings for him, and that she cared for him, he personally was also extremely depressed and found a new outlet for his love. Thing is that the build up for the new relationship was actually well done. Rudeus rushing to marriage was a bit too quick imho, but you can see him trying to cling onto her, so that he wouldn't be left behind anymore. There's a lot of actual complicated emotions which caused the outcome to work out the way it did. So while you looked at it as "fanservice" (Well it's hard to say it wasn't.), that was also an important plotpoint signifying that Rudeus is starting to settle down, and got rid of his negative mentality that he had built over the months of depression.
While the whole "marrying X" storyline was one of the more boring volumes. The thing is that after the arc, shit gets real good, real quick. After that is the point where I really found the story start hitting off.
Edited by geenius3ab, 21 April 2016 - 02:04 AM.
Potato Spud
I'm not sure where the 10% statistic is from...Maybe we're talking about different countries? From my studies into the subject, I've found that they do vary a lot depending on the country. However, there's a trend that shows that the more patriarchal and misogynistic the country is, the higher the percentage of "false rape accusations" is. After looking into it, I found that the reason is that women initially report the rape, but soon find that the authorities and society treat them horribly, and they realize that winning the case is a lost cause and they should retract their statements because they didn't want to prolong the trauma. The victims are already very emotionally weakened, and don't want to talk about what they experienced in the first place, so more threats to their safety often convince them to just put things behind them instead of spending years trying to convince the jury. For more accurate statistics, a country with full societal gender equality would be ideal, but those are very rare. I think the closest would probably Scandinavia, but I have trouble finding their statistics on the subject...
Anyway, in terms of the plot, the very fact that she's a princess is the part that I find hard to believe. Even in not-so-misogynistic countries, rape victims (regardless of gender) are treated badly. It's seen as "degrading" to their character even though they're the victims. The idea that she'd willingly drag her reputation "through the mud" for something she doesn't even care much about just seems so extremely hard to believe. I understand the psychology of the readers in this case - people mainly pay attention to what concerns them, and in the case of rape, women are concerned with being raped and how society would treat them, while men are concerned with being falsely accused. The issue is that when the topic of rape is brought up, each gender thinks about how the topic relates to them, which results in false rape accusations being on men's minds a lot, which tends to mislead them into the impression that it happens often.
So, I get how male readers (and the author) wouldn't find the accusation strange, and understand that it makes sense for them - the issue is just that it ostracizes female readers who understand female psychology and thus find it incomprehensible for a princess to commit political suicide just to ruin someone she just met, regardless of how much she vaguely dislikes his occupation. At first I thought it made a little sense if she just wanted to steal all of his money, but then she turned out to be rich, so...There is literally no reason for her to do it. Since she's a princess, she had access to hundreds of ways to frame him for stealing or something, but she chose the one way that hurt her own reputation in the process. It just doesn't make sense.
It's similar to the reason a lot of gay men don't like yaoi - the authors portray gay men very unrealistically, and it ends up perpetuating negative stereotypes that end up being harmful to the gay community. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad manga (yaoi and harem manga are understood to be "fantasy" stories), it just means it was written in a way that limits larger audience appeal, because certain audiences "know too much" about certain types of characters, which affects their ability to maintain their suspension of disbelief.
I would like to point out a few things here...
First, you seem to be mistaking the act of rape itself with the crime of attempted rape. If it's the former than yes, you are right, it is degrading and most would want to punish the perpetrator and keep it quite because it is degrading to the family itself. However in this case it's the later, which holds all the punishment of the perpetrator with NONE of the degradation. Why? Because the woman wasn't "defiled" she was merely assaulted.
Hence why 1) he was under the crime of "sexual Assault" and not rape, 2) She states she was forced down, screamed, and the other dude came to her rescue. Aka They call him the rapist because of the act of trying to commit rape, not the actual act.
It isn't actually hard to believe when you consider it was attempted rape. Maybe due to the wording too many people thought it was actual rape? I don't know if the WN explicitly states he raped her but the manga doesn't. And there is actually no reason to believe he raped her as the period she mentions from her scream to rescue is immediate.
So yeah, princess accusing some guy of TRYING to rape her? I actually see no reason for them not to think so especially since she appears nice to these heroes who they just met, this guy seemed weird to them (which they state), and the king also thinks she wouldn't lie about something like this. I honestly don't see what reason there would be IN believing the MC in this case.
Potato
I would like to point out a few things here...
First, you seem to be mistaking the act of rape itself with the crime of attempted rape. If it's the former than yes, you are right, it is degrading and most would want to punish the perpetrator and keep it quite because it is degrading to the family itself. However in this case it's the later, which holds all the punishment of the perpetrator with NONE of the degradation. Why? Because the woman wasn't "defiled" she was merely assaulted.
Hence why 1) he was under the crime of "sexual Assault" and not rape, 2) She states she was forced down, screamed, and the other dude came to her rescue. Aka They call him the rapist because of the act of trying to commit rape, not the actual act.
It isn't actually hard to believe when you consider it was attempted rape. Maybe due to the wording too many people thought it was actual rape? I don't know if the WN explicitly states he raped her but the manga doesn't. And there is actually no reason to believe he raped her as the period she mentions from her scream to rescue is immediate.
So yeah, princess accusing some guy of TRYING to rape her? I actually see no reason for them not to think so especially since she appears nice to these heroes who they just met, this guy seemed weird to them (which they state), and the king also thinks she wouldn't lie about something like this. I honestly don't see what reason there would be IN believing the MC in this case.
And uh... She's the established, beautiful, smart, lovely, princess? While the other is a creepy shield guy who was summoned, who everyone of them deems useless and a stain upon heroes?
There's no reason to pull the realworld thing in here. In our world we have a need for evidence and facts (There's feminists who think that only the word of the girl is enough to condemn those men.).. This is a medieval fantasy world. If one cannot open their mind to a new set of rules, then there's no point in them reading a FANTASY novel.
Still hate the manga/novel, but I'll say that the rape incident is one of the things that people shouldn't whine about.
Edited by geenius3ab, 23 April 2016 - 01:43 PM.
Potato Spud
And uh... She's the established, beautiful, smart, lovely, princess? While the other is a creepy shield guy who was summoned, who everyone of them deems useless and a stain upon heroes?
There's no reason to pull the realworld thing in here. In our world we have a need for evidence and facts (There's feminists who think that only the word of the girl is enough to condemn those men.).. This is a medieval fantasy world. If one cannot open their mind to a new set of rules, then there's no point in them reading a FANTASY novel.
Still hate the manga/novel, but I'll say that the rape incident is one of the things that people shouldn't whine about.
Of course, however you can't always pass off what happens in a world as "it's fantasy you have to take it as is." It has to be at least realistic under the conditions or you are presented information to rationalize what is happening. In regard to the story it was supposed to be attempted rape, not actual rape.
However, in terms of the story at present, it's at least better than others in the same genre. Or at least I'm enjoying it more. I haven't really read past the manga but from the current chapters comparing it to others in the same genre, this is by far the better in terms of story and MC, not as much in terms of side characters though.
Potato
Of course, however you can't always pass off what happens in a world as "it's fantasy you have to take it as is." It has to be at least realistic under the conditions or you are presented information to rationalize what is happening. In regard to the story it was supposed to be attempted rape, not actual rape.
However, in terms of the story at present, it's at least better than others in the same genre. Or at least I'm enjoying it more. I haven't really read past the manga but from the current chapters comparing it to others in the same genre, this is by far the better in terms of story and MC, not as much in terms of side characters though.
Medieval fantasy. That's enough to understand that police is not a thing there. There's no presidents, no nothing there, if a princess or a king wants to condemn someone, they can easily do it. The reason why the MC wasn't killed for the "attempted rape" that the princess claimed is cause he's a hero and has a certain person looking out for him that you find out about later. That's the middle ages with kings, etc. It's not that we should just simply take everything a story thinks up "as is" from the start. But the setting itself is enough to give an idea on how things work there, that's clear from the start. They don't have water toilets, there's horse shit everywhere most likely.. Cause it's the fantasy medieval age... There's castles, technology is crap, it's a monarchy, there's slaves. I mean does that SEEM like a world that has the same human rights as we do? It's quite clear from the start (hell kings aren't remembered for their "kindness", they usually killed anyone that they didn't like.)
Settings indicate normalcy. If we have a fantasy world with kings, then we can understand that human rights aren't a real thing there (Unless it's explained in the story,).. The stories can progress and explain a lot about the specific world rules, but when I think of medieval ages with princesses and kings, I don't see a society built upon happiness where everyone is fair and happy. I see lower class working to meet their ends meet, village girls being taken by the dukes when they fancy them, rebellious villagers get beaten to death with sticks, etc. They don't have human rights like we do, they don't have indepth investigations for each death or crime. If a duke is claiming that someone did something, then unless their position is on the same level, then that person is going to get killed without any sort of investigation. That's medieval "justice".
Edited by geenius3ab, 23 April 2016 - 07:00 PM.
Potato Sprout
It's really lovely to come to this post, almost two years later, and see that the same ppl are still discussing the same offtopic.
I belive that at this point you guys can already give up, you will never reach an aggreament. And hey, it's not even that important.
Edited by Wehr, 16 July 2016 - 10:01 AM.
Fingerling Potato
The attempted rape thing doesn't actually make any sense with the story setting and timeline.
Back then there was no such idea as rape. And if a woman went along willingly with a man like that, it'd be expected that he would take possession of her. The father in fact would have paid the man to take her off his hands. These are the historical facts we work with.
It's even more ridiculous in modern day mentality, where she stole everything he had and very clearly entrapped him, and then there is no evidence of any sex whatsoever. All the witnesses would in fact show she was flirting with him and willingly spending time with him. And before anyone says she was a princess, it would be even more highly strange that her father released her alone to a strange man and no bodyguards or anything.
Ultimately though we will probably find out she has been possessed by some evil demon and wanted to make the shield hero destroy the world or whatever. Then her and the father will be completely forgiven, shield hero will ignore everything and become a true hero, and everyone will pretend they liked him from the start. The rape accusations will be brushed under the rug, and probably he will be called a virgin thirty times to make fun of him. Maybe even called a NEET etc. These things generally follow a very predictable pattern.
Potato
The attempted rape thing doesn't actually make any sense with the story setting and timeline.
Back then there was no such idea as rape. And if a woman went along willingly with a man like that, it'd be expected that he would take possession of her. The father in fact would have paid the man to take her off his hands. These are the historical facts we work with.
It's even more ridiculous in modern day mentality, where she stole everything he had and very clearly entrapped him, and then there is no evidence of any sex whatsoever. All the witnesses would in fact show she was flirting with him and willingly spending time with him. And before anyone says she was a princess, it would be even more highly strange that her father released her alone to a strange man and no bodyguards or anything.
Ultimately though we will probably find out she has been possessed by some evil demon and wanted to make the shield hero destroy the world or whatever. Then her and the father will be completely forgiven, shield hero will ignore everything and become a true hero, and everyone will pretend they liked him from the start. The rape accusations will be brushed under the rug, and probably he will be called a virgin thirty times to make fun of him. Maybe even called a NEET etc. These things generally follow a very predictable pattern.
Siiigh.. It has been explained multiple times.
The story's setting is a game style fantasy medieval ages where there is monarchy, but also levels. The princesses and escorts provided to the heroes initially are all that are needed as the princesses and escorts themselves will be leading the characters through gradual progression.. Though I think that the princesses themselves are skilled enough so that the king did not really mind (There are a number of possibilities and that's all.).
Another thing is that the heroes were summoned but there was already bias against the shield hero due to certain reasons, which I won't go into detail with. It might be that the king knew what the princess was initially thinking, or he found out later but simply didn't care.
And nothing like that happens. She's simply a bad person. And the interactions are not that simple between the heroes in this series.
Although I hated this series and dropped it at chapter 150~250 (Can't remember.) this was never an aspect that annoyed me. I had a ton of other things which I hated about the story and the direction it was going at, but that was not it as a ton of things are explained.
Edited by geenius3ab, 10 February 2017 - 03:31 PM.
Potato Sprout
wow, read the WN way back when it came out and then went thru the first couple chapters of the manga. I kinda went on to wuxia novels since and haven't really touched anything Japanese since.
Potato Sprout
Wow, come back after a few years, and see that this argument was never resolved...so i guess I'll leave my spoiler free thoughts/explanations, since I did finish reading the webnovel.
The heroes resented the Shield hero right from the start, because he was totally different to them, he wasn't as big a gamer, wasn't as righteous, and he didn't die prior to transfer there (the other three bonded over the saved at death's door they had in common). They all notice this within the first couple chapters, and start to distance themselves from him. Then there's the fact that his weapon isn't traditionally considered a weapon, so they also see him as useless baggage. With such a poor image of him, it's easy to latch onto whatever comes up against him.
The kingdom hates him for unspecified reasons, at least it's not explained at first. So they were just looking for some excuse to get rid of him. It comes up a few times throughout the story, in conversation mostly, that the Holy Shield itself isn't something they regard highly in this particular kingdom, and with the crimes attributed to him early on, it's easy to just label him as the devil, or some monstrously evil individual. This negative image is reinforced by his attitude towards the world in general getting more negative with each accusation.
The princess is a manipulative bitch, and she did claim to be raped, she tells the Spear Hero that she was a virgin prior to this, even claims she was robbed (despite joining the Spear Hero with a bunch of gold and stolen goods). It's a criminal accusation that gets repeated throughout the story, and isn't cleared up until the Queen makes her appearance.
All of these things come full circle by the end of the story, and most of the people get redeemed, even the King wasn't really that big an asshole.
Edited by Xsanguine8, 10 January 2018 - 04:32 AM.
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