46 replies to this topic

[Gale]

Yeah, the reason I gave up on this manga a while ago was the kinda forced assumption that the MC suddenly having his body changed would just nullify the years he spent identifying, living, and being socialised as a boy. Like he'd automatically start being attracted to guys and acting more stereotypically girly over time as if it's an inherent outcome of having a uterus, when it's easily demonstrable that this just isn't the case.

I get annoyed with this kind of character drama, because it kind of denies the existence of gay and trans folks who can spend their entire lives with the same organs and chemistry and bodies that the MC has had for a few months, but might never be remotely interested in men, or for whom acting girly feels intensely forced and unnatural. It's not an issue that can be solved with magic or suspension of disbelief; for the essential emotional conflict to make any sense whatsoever, I have to accept as given that these characters aren't human in the same way I am, and are impossible to relate to on a fundamental level. At that point, it's kind of hard to care about anything they do.

If the MC had a history of weak attachment to his gender and some vaguely bisexual leanings, and he'd just been suppressing or ignoring them until the events of the manga, then having his body transformed could easily be the thing that pushes him into thinking about and expressing those aspects of himself he'd previously denied. In that sense, dealing with the push and pull of feelings that are supposed to be of this gender or that gender, feeling unsure about how to even think about yourself and who you are as a person, and getting confused about your sexuality and how to understand it in the context of an uncertain gender identity, are all actual questions that would make real sense in the setting of this manga.

Framing those exact same questions in terms of "My magically-transformed body is poisoning my mind with girl-feels and now I have fluffy girly love thoughts towards my hot guy friend and that's only something girls can have and would never ever have crossed my mind under any circumstances if I was still a boy"? I guess it might make seem unremarkably plausible to someone who's never needed to think very hard about their gender identity, but to me it really feels like an absurd and vaguely insulting non-sequitur.

Honestly, even Ranma 1/2 had a better grasp of gender than this. Ranma "turned into a girl" all the time, but it didn't mean he suddenly cared about looking cute and being attracted to boys and being embarrassed about exposing his chest. A lot of that stuff comes from socialisation over time, and even the biological parts still have a lot of learned culture surrounding them. This isn't something I'm imposing on the text from a foreign and incompatable framework of gender theory, this is something you could figure out by remembering that LGBT folks actually exist and that trans people obviously have to actively identify as trans BEFORE they start getting any hormones or surgery. The process of seriously trying to apply those real-world analogues to the fictional characters in your fantasy love drama, instead of just saying fuck it and writing whatever comes to mind, is a huge part of what makes a story feel convincing and emotional.

Even if you say "It's about magic in the first place, why does it matter if the MC's feelings started changing after the transformation", then I kinda want to ask why you're happy to read a story about a boy-turned-girl falling in love with a longstanding male friend, but the idea that this character could be some kind of actual trans person somehow would somehow spoil it for you? Whether he was a boy who had trans-maleness forced upon him through magic, or a closeted trans-girl who could become more comfortable in her current form than she ever would have been before (or something else entirely) anything would make more sense and feel more cohesive than his new ovaries having unmentioned and unexplained mind-control powers for some reason.

So yeah. I really wanted to enjoy this manga, to be honest. I really like the art, and the setting and character dynamics could all be pretty interesting. It just bothered me so much that I couldn't make myself continue reading. And apparently, it also bothered me enough that I felt compelled to write such a stupidly long post about it, even though it's been already been quite a while since I gave up on it. Oh well.

[Aereus]

Yeah, the reason I gave up on this manga a while ago was the kinda forced assumption that the MC suddenly having his body changed would just nullify the years he spent identifying, living, and being socialised as a boy. Like he'd automatically start being attracted to guys and acting more stereotypically girly over time as if it's an inherent outcome of having a uterus, when it's easily demonstrable that this just isn't the case.

If the MC had a history of weak attachment to his gender and some vaguely bisexual leanings, and he'd just been suppressing or ignoring them until the events of the manga, then having his body transformed could easily be the thing that pushes him into thinking about and expressing those aspects of himself he'd previously denied. In that sense, dealing with the push and pull of feelings that are supposed to be of this gender or that gender, feeling unsure about how to even think about yourself and who you are as a person, and getting confused about your sexuality and how to understand it in the context of an uncertain gender identity, are all actual questions that would make real sense in the setting of this manga.

 

But this is pretty much exactly what is happening with Mizuki. We've had a number of flashbacks with Mizuki by now that demonstrate he was rather effeminate as a little kid, liked dolls, associated easier with the girls than the boys, etc. He was largely brow-beaten by his father into suppressing any behavior that wasn't sufficiently "manly".

[Nightdragon]

Isn't that only natural? The main reason I see so many Gender Bender Manga go this direction is because  most boys who go under those gender bender simply like the girl, and liking could be from just a mild interest in her to a full blown crush. However even with all those feelings there is no relationship between them or any type of trust; meanwhile, the MC has a trusting and comfortable friendship with his best friend who has his back no matter what. From my viewpoint, a typical girl tends look for guy that is comforting, supporting with the thought of knowing he always going to be there for her when she needs help. The process of Changing Gender is an frightening experience and let's just say there's a reason why princess want a knight in shining armor.

..... you know as a jaded man who, honestly been rejected just because my wallet wasn't big enough, I would love to know where these women are.... I mean I live in a big city so maybe its just city women are the issue, or the ones who are like that are already with someone.

 

*sigh* whatever

[Aereus]

Finding the right girl is largely about numbers. Just keep putting yourself out there and eventually you will meet one you click with. Pining on only one girl, especially if you know it won't happen/wouldn't work out only hurts you in the long run.

[Periodic No. 79]

..... you know as a jaded man who, honestly been rejected just because my wallet wasn't big enough, I would love to know where these women are.... I mean I live in a big city so maybe its just city women are the issue, or the ones who are like that are already with someone.

 

*sigh* whatever

 

Probably should have put manga girls in there. To me city women equal drunk women at night bars...... though i know this isn't fully true. I do seriously hope this manga gets done without cutting the corners on the story plot. 

[takahashifan]

What about Kashimashi: Girl meets Girl, that's a genderbender that involves a yuri relationship if memory serves.

Look, I came into anime through Ranma; the standard that is set forth from what I consider the oldest of this genere is the yaoi/yuri thing rolls of the MC's current. The paradigm of these is set off that. For example: during the Pheonix Pill arc in Ranma; Ranma was stuck in girl form due to the Full Body Cat Tongue. Shampoo informs Ranma of the Pheonix Pill held by Cologne which would allow her to return to boy form. The insult towards Akane wherein Shampoo says, "Shampoo loves boy type Ranma, maybe pervert girl Akane only like girl type, tell truth now?" This insult Makes no sense if the standard of yahoo/yuri rolls off the MCs true form. Now then the best friend thing rolls off the established fact that the MC and Best Friend already have love as brothers/sisters existing and its much easier to take brotherly love and turn it over to intimate/romantic love as the MC adjusts to life in their new form (for these permanent style GBs) even kasimasi follows this to the yuri end.
I leave another example: the aquarium scene with Fuji an Takeru where Mizuki is getting jealous of the two (the author did a great job here) adding to this frustration is that Mizuki doesn't under stand who She is jealous for. In fact this type of this genre makes a great hyperbole for other things.

[Cool Shock DP]

Uh. . .I feel awkward with all these interesting comments that are all least a paragraph long. The reason that I can't read this manga and others like it is for one simple reason.

The MC had his gender swapped against his will, and I am am not okay with that. Real transgender people change DECIDE to swap genders. Not much else I can say about it.

[Christine Guinn]

Yeah, the reason I gave up on this manga a while ago was the kinda forced assumption that the MC suddenly having his body changed would just nullify the years he spent identifying, living, and being socialised as a boy. Like he'd automatically start being attracted to guys and acting more stereotypically girly over time as if it's an inherent outcome of having a uterus, when it's easily demonstrable that this just isn't the case.

I get annoyed with this kind of character drama, because it kind of denies the existence of gay and trans folks who can spend their entire lives with the same organs and chemistry and bodies that the MC has had for a few months, but might never be remotely interested in men, or for whom acting girly feels intensely forced and unnatural. It's not an issue that can be solved with magic or suspension of disbelief; for the essential emotional conflict to make any sense whatsoever, I have to accept as given that these characters aren't human in the same way I am, and are impossible to relate to on a fundamental level. At that point, it's kind of hard to care about anything they do.

Not ALWAYS the case, but it sometimes is.  Hormones are a crap shoot.  You really don't know how they are going to affect the mind and your sexual preferences.  Hormones change the way we percieve a the world.  In the same way estrogen changes your body chemestry so that skin is softer, body hair lessens and thingslike sweat and other body fluids take on a more typically femine odor, hormones also may change your brain to favor certain things over others that you didn't before, like smells, etc.  Speaking as a trans woman, I was never really attracted to men, and I definitely was not attracted to women. (I was more envious of women than anything else.)  Basically, I was asexual.  After taking estrogen, am I attracted to men?  HELL YEAH!!  Is that the case for every MTF transgender?  Certainly not.  Much speculation is going on in the media right now about Bruce Jenner, and although I have not seen an OFFICAL statement, sources say that while Bruce considers himself to be a woman, he, (still using male pronouns and Bruce since he hasn't made an offical statement yet), reportedly still is attracted to women.

So no, it doesn't really deny the existence if gay or transgender people.  If I'm trangender and I can enjoy it, I say lighten up.  Most transgender people WISH that gender transformation was that freaking easy!!

[Beelz]

I'm quoting a hentai manga manga but "if it's cute, then gender doesn't matter!" Though I'm paraphrasing a bit.

While I might not read yaoi often I still do from occasion, usually when one character is a trap or cute male it makes it easier and more stimulating than seeing two handsome men hookup. Though this just might sound like turning one of the males into a female avatar to help appease my heterosexuality, at the end of the day it is usually made very aware he has a bulge in his pants.

Alternatively Yuri almost solely has 2 attractive or cute ladies falling in love, and I just can't get enough of that.

As far as genderbenders go, I think it largely frees up the sexuality part of the equation because remaining mentally straight causes Yuri action, and turning gay gives us a hetero relationship. So in the large part their choice on a relationship doesn't much matter.

I think people who embrace open sexuality will find any reason to approve genderbenders while those still traditional to gender roles may find fault at a given chance.

Case and point, MC's best bud falls in love with home despite knowing he's a guy, yet Nanatarou vehemently disbaleives he was ever male to begin with. If he ever changes back, we can assume Ryou may still have romantic feelings yet Nanatarou would drop the idea like a bad bra. Much like the reaction of the fan base, the characters all have their own limits and beliefs on what is an acceptable relationship.

 

 

I think you summed up everything i feel about the subject aswell as my person preference.

[Hydra vulgaris]

Not ALWAYS the case, but it sometimes is.  Hormones are a crap shoot.  You really don't know how they are going to affect the mind and your sexual preferences.  Hormones change the way we percieve a the world.  In the same way estrogen changes your body chemestry so that skin is softer, body hair lessens and thingslike sweat and other body fluids take on a more typically femine odor, hormones also may change your brain to favor certain things over others that you didn't before, like smells, etc.  Speaking as a trans woman, I was never really attracted to men, and I definitely was not attracted to women. (I was more envious of women than anything else.)  Basically, I was asexual.  After taking estrogen, am I attracted to men?  HELL YEAH!!  Is that the case for every MTF transgender?  Certainly not.  Much speculation is going on in the media right now about Bruce Jenner, and although I have not seen an OFFICAL statement, sources say that while Bruce considers himself to be a woman, he, (still using male pronouns and Bruce since he hasn't made an offical statement yet), reportedly still is attracted to women.

So no, it doesn't really deny the existence if gay or transgender people.  If I'm trangender and I can enjoy it, I say lighten up.  Most transgender people WISH that gender transformation was that freaking easy!!

Strictly speaking, Gale is right to say having a uterus and certain hormones does not imply any sort of behaviourial difference, even if it sometimes happens. In a slightly wider context, of all gender bender mangas I've read personally or come across by way of suggestion (not that many mind you), just about all of them IIRC hand-wave on the subject of socialization, gender, sexuality, biology, and their interplay or provide some sort of cop-out to avoid getting into the thick of it (e.g. Prunus Girl to me leans toward the cop-out route by just suggesting anyone can love anybody and anybody should be whoever they are, without also going into further detail. Still a lovely manga though). If all or most gender bender mangas pulled this sort of magical transformation, it really does seem to me to paint a rather unrealistic picture of trans people that effectively denies what actually goes on. Sort of like level 1, easy mode of dealing with gender as a topic of discussion. (Although there are cross-cultural inferences that I would have to make, being from Canada and not Japan, to say that this sort of depiction is, for better or worse, a bit shallow.) So, in a lot of respects, my position is closer to Gale's outlook.

 

Now, having said all that, in response to "Most transgender people WISH that gender transformation was that freaking easy!!" --> AAAAAAAAAMEN. /AlexanderAnderson

Edited by Hydra vulgaris, 28 March 2015 - 09:02 AM.

[omnipotentcheese]

I'm surprised that people can buy the idea that a character could completely change gender, (down to the chromosome level apparently), but would NOT change their sexual preference.  That seems to be the biggest complaint I've heard. People seem to hate it when the guy turns into a girl, then falls in love with their best friend.  (Idol Pretender, Megu Mikuru. etc., and apparently this manga seems headed that way as well.)

 

I object to the implication that sexual preference has much if anything to do with genetics. Certianly you can say that there is a higher probability of your sexual preferences fitting into expected gender roles than not. I have read estimates that suggest roughly 10% of the populuation is homosexual. That said, a substantial number of people spend their whole lives hiding their sexual orientation. That might make it sound like people have a 90% chance of being "straight", but this is not even close to the case. In reality, sexual preferences are WAY more complex and nuanced than straight or gay. Maybe a person is fully bisexual. I have a friend who is bisexual, but much prefers relationships with women. Perhaps a person identifies as "straight", but will still engage in sexual activity with same sex partners. (This happens more than you might think.) Perhaps a person is born male, but identifies as female, and is sexually attracted to women. Is this person "gay"?

 

Even a very limited amount of research will show that homosexuality is not a trait that is linked to ANY known set of genes. It is also not passed along family lines. And please, no one make the argument that people who identify as homosexual do not conceive children. Having children is incredibly important to some people, there are plenty of ways to make that happen. Most importantly, it actually does happen.
 

I think the important takeaway here is that gender identity and sexual preference is just not a binary system. Humans are highly complex animals. Whatever your sexual preference or gender role, people just want to be happy. I for one, much prefer spending time with happy people.

 

I think one of the primary tensions in Boku Girl is not the main characters sexual preference, but that for that vast majority of his life, "he" was compelled to "be manly". There has been a lot of interesting things written about the effects on men and society from this concept of toxic masculinity. Never show your feelings, always be the strongest, defeat all opponents, don't cry, accepting help is weakness. Bottle everything up inside, shoulder every burden, and work until it kills you. Lot's of men never escape from this cage. This ethos has been fed to them since infancy. The MC certainly did not show any signs of escaping it let alone questioning it. Indeed "he" was trying to force these ideals on others.

Edited by omnipotentcheese, 31 March 2015 - 06:10 PM.

[Christine Guinn]

I object to the implication that sexual preference has much if anything to do with genetics. Certianly you can say that there is a higher probability of your sexual preferences fitting into expected gender roles than not. I have read estimates that suggest roughly 10% of the populuation is homosexual. That said, a substantial number of people spend their whole lives hiding their sexual orientation. That might make it sound like people have a 90% chance of being "straight", but this is not even close to the case. In reality, sexual preferences are WAY more complex and nuanced than straight or gay. Maybe a person is fully bisexual. I have a friend who is bisexual, but much prefers relationships with women. Perhaps a person identifies as "straight", but will still engage in sexual activity with same sex partners. (This happens more than you might think.) Perhaps a person is born male, but identifies as female, and is sexually attracted to women. Is this person "gay"?

 

Even a very limited amount of research will show that homosexuality is not a trait that is linked to ANY known set of genes. It is also not passed along family lines. And please, no one make the argument that people who identify as homosexual do not conceive children. Having children is incredibly important to some people, there are plenty of ways to make that happen. Most importantly, it actually does happen.
 

I think the important takeaway here is that gender identity and sexual preference is just not a binary system. Humans are highly complex animals. Whatever your sexual preference or gender role, people just want to be happy. I for one, much prefer spending time with happy people.

 

I think one of the primary tensions in Boku Girl is not the main characters sexual preference, but that for that vast majority of his life, "he" was compelled to "be manly". There has been a lot of interesting things written about the effects on men and society from this concept of toxic masculinity. Never show your feelings, always be the strongest, defeat all opponents, don't cry, accepting help is weakness. Bottle everything up inside, shoulder every burden, and work until it kills you. Lot's of men never escape from this cage. This ethos has been fed to them since infancy. The MC certainly did not show any signs of escaping it let alone questioning it. Indeed "he" was trying to force these ideals on others.

You missed the point of my post entirely.

People seem to have no problem with a fictional story where a man turns into a woman at the chromosomal level, (they seem to accept that, and can suspend their disbelief), but the idea that they can ALSO change their sexual preference, (even "magically"), seems to upset them.  Maybe it's because they don't REALLY accept the idea of the gender change, and consider a MTF character falling in love with their best friend to be yaoi? (And let's face it, most people will accept yuri more than they will yaoi.  Two lesbians making out on the Howard Stern Show is considered "hot", but do you ever think Howard Stern would have two gay MEN making out on his show?)  It's probably because of this that you get people like Gale who reject the idea that Mizuki could fall in love with Takeru, even though they claim to accept the idea of the gender swap.

[LePhenom]

But this is pretty much exactly what is happening with Mizuki. We've had a number of flashbacks with Mizuki by now that demonstrate he was rather effeminate as a little kid, liked dolls, associated easier with the girls than the boys, etc. He was largely brow-beaten by his father into suppressing any behavior that wasn't sufficiently "manly".

 

This. Seems he didn't pay attention to the details of the story at all (or didn't bother reading far enough and still complain without knowing any better).

[takahashifan]

Firstly, it's fiction so really its not having anything to reality. The main theme starting the series of is what if a guy woke up as a girl. Now its how does the formerly male mc deal with the new gender, does he follow the new genetic pulls or retain a male mind? In the end it is taking a hyperbolic analogy towards the whole thing. The nice thing about this series is actual character development similar to Ranma at a pace that doesn't burn out the reader. アイドルプリテンダー and めぐミルク seemed rushed in the mc's adaptation.
To any points on GID lines, not going there right now. As for my thoughts on the matter, they're all with the bible. As for this series its just good fun and there you have it.

[gothicshark]

As a Transger person, I feel the need to make a comment here. 

 

I was assigned male at birth, and growing up I was always attracted to cis-gender females, preferably Slavic build. Even though I felt female I was not interested in a relationship with males. 

 

When I started to transition, my sexual attractions changed. I found I was attracted to both Males and Females, as my breasts started to develop, I became more interested in males than females. This is actually fairly typical for trans-people. Only a small percentage remain attracted to the same types of people after transitions. (ironically, more often it's Female to males, who are lesbians, who stay attracted to women, when the become men.) The reason for this is hormonal, if you are gay or bi before you transition you stay gay or bi afterwards, if you are straight before transition you stay straight or become bi. I personally ID as Pan-sexual since I am attracted to males, and to a degree females, but I would also date trans people. But I was once 100% a straight male. 

 

This being said, the way this Manga is developing, is showing that the change of the MC has effected her stance and opinions. She was always fem, and possibly would have been a Trans-woman if Loki didn't work his magic. (remember Loki is a male character who switches his gender at will, and people in Asia know this.) This manga is clearly a metaphor about transgender issues. Which is why I am really enjoying it. I sort of hope it is made into an Anime one day, it's good enough. 

Edited by gothicshark, 30 August 2015 - 07:48 AM.

[gothicshark]

Ok, long winded, multi-quote responding to everyone at once. Since a few posts have been made, which seem to me need my unique perspective on the issues at hand with this manga.
 

To have less clutter in the main comments, I'm creating this discussion thread for everyone to use. Feel free to talk about anything related to gender, gender identity dysfunction (GID), social norms/expectations, etc.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5)
302.85 Gender Identity Disorder, is the current medical term used.
However, as people become more aware of the issues and biology behind it, that term will become redefined as just Gender Identity, or transgender.

Is it there someone who would kindly explain to me what is all the fuss about? The fact that the MC could end up with his/her friend should be considered as yaoi? Or what else?

The MC, has transitioned female, and as such it wouldn’t make this manga Yaoi. However currently the MC is in a relationship with a female, so yuri, would be more acceptable.
 

I'm surprised that people can buy the idea that a character could completely change gender, (down to the chromosome level apparently), but would NOT change their sexual preference. That seems to be the biggest complaint I've heard. People seem to hate it when the guy turns into a girl, then falls in love with their best friend. (Idol Pretender, Megu Mikuru. etc., and apparently this manga seems headed that way as well.)

They fail to grasp the biology of the situation. The authors are correct, on how being turned female can change a person. Ranma ½ is often used as an example of how it’s done correctly. The thing is Ranma spent equal time as both male and female, was actually male Identity (except for a short time), however, if your followed the manga, Ranma was clearly comfortable flirting with males. I suspect he was a bit pansexual, but clearly had feelings for Akane.

True, but you also have to remember that doujinshi like this are typically aimed towards a "Male" audience. I don't think too many would really be into "yaoi" scenarios.

Now if we were to do a flip side of this and have it so a female character was turned male then fell in love with her male friend, that would certainly mix things up. I personally don't care for shonen-AI or yaoi manga's but if that's your cup of tea, more power to you. Who am I to judge? I'm reading a manga about a guy turning into a girl and potentially falling in love with her(his?) best friend. Kinda twisted if you think about it since I'm a straight guy who wants to see a former guy hook up with another guy!

If that makes me a yaoi fan or some mixture of the genres then so be it. I don't even really care for Yuri or Shojou-AI manga's either, just not my cup of joe.

Real relationships typically don't work that way, and I can see how some folks can argue that. But real relationships don't involve mythical god(desses) transforming or genetic make ups to become the opposite sex.

Ultimately, I just try to enjoy the material, and so far, I anxiously await every volume. So much so I'm going to be ordering the manga's from Japan and trying to read them before the scanlations go through. Will help me in my Japanese class anyway.

Magic is often used as metaphor for more common things. In the case of gender bender stories, it’s used as a metaphor for being trans-gender, genderfluid, homosexual or bisexual. Ranma was a bisexual genderfluid boy who liked a manly girl. This manga deals with a transgirl who is still not comfortable coming out. The magic is a way to bring the humor into an actual serious issue. A cis-gender person might not get this, but as a trans-person I can identify with what the MC is going through. I personally had these issues myself. I was very insistent I was a man most of my childhood, and my young adult life. I changed my name to be as masculine as possible at 10, I joined the USMC at 18, I ended 2 different special operations units while in the marines, and I hung out with (anti-Nazi) skinheads during my free time. (Ethnically Jewish BTW) just to prove to myself I was a man. I got married to a Slavic woman.

You know what, I never convinced myself I was a man. Finally at 30 (2001), I admitted, I wasn’t doing gothic fashion to be tough, it was because I was female mentally, and I could pretend I was a guy while wearing makeup and a dress.
I started my transition shortly afterwards. And have never felt better about myself.
 

Biological sex and gender identity are two completely different things.

So, if the MC identifies as male (while still being biologically female) and likes guys in a sexual matter, he would be gay. Then it would be yayoi. Only by knowing what the MC identifies himself as (female/male/something from between) and wether he likes girls or boys (or who he ends up with) will tell us what his sexual orientation is: gay, straight or bi. Though my own personal feeling is that he's more of a bisexual than neither straight or gay.

Also I'm pretty sure that the MC isn't so sure about his own gender identity at the moment, so we can't really know if it's yayoi/yuri or neither. Only later we will be sure.

PS. why does English language have to have he and she pronouns? Why couldn't there be some gender-neutral pronoun like in my language (Finnish, we only have "hän" pronoun and we can also use "it" pronoun when talking about a person, in Finnish: "it" = "se")

PPS. I hope the picture is helpful

-snip-

I use this picture often, to explain things. And it is true.
Gender Identity is in the soul, and is not connected to your biology after your birth. (Science says it is connected to developmental hormones before birth however.)
Gender Expression is your fashion and body type. Your body type is biology, your fashion is cultural.
Biological sex, Pure DNA.
Orientation, also genetically linked. (X chromosome BTW)
Now the thing is as a person who transitions, your mind transitions as well. If you are heterosexual before changing, you have a good chance of staying heterosexual afterwards, hetero to your new gender that is.
You see gender ID is the only one that never actually changes, since it’s related to personality. Your expression can change by changing fashion, or though medical science. Biological sex can be changed medically, not on the DNA level, but in all other ways. Sexual orientation changes throughout a person’s life, a young bi-sexual child may grow up to be gay or straight, or at an older point a straight person may switch to gay. Very few humans remain 100% consistent with sexual orientation throughout their lives.

But this is pretty much exactly what is happening with Mizuki. We've had a number of flashbacks with Mizuki by now that demonstrate he was rather effeminate as a little kid, liked dolls, associated easier with the girls than the boys, etc. He was largely brow-beaten by his father into suppressing any behavior that wasn't sufficiently "manly".

Part of why I am sure Mizuki was going to grow up and transition at some point. People forget, in Mythology, Loki was a trickster god, but he was also a good guy as well. Every trick was indented to help the heroes become better, or help them fulfill their destinies. Loki wasn’t evil.
So by changing Mizuki, Loki may have decided to have fun and help Mizuki figure out who she is before she got older. Remember depression and suicide are very common in Trans-people.
 

Look, I came into anime through Ranma; the standard that is set forth from what I consider the oldest of this genere is the yaoi/yuri thing rolls of the MC's current. The paradigm of these is set off that. For example: during the Pheonix Pill arc in Ranma; Ranma was stuck in girl form due to the Full Body Cat Tongue. Shampoo informs Ranma of the Pheonix Pill held by Cologne which would allow her to return to boy form. The insult towards Akane wherein Shampoo says, "Shampoo loves boy type Ranma, maybe pervert girl Akane only like girl type, tell truth now?" This insult Makes no sense if the standard of yahoo/yuri rolls off the MCs true form. Now then the best friend thing rolls off the established fact that the MC and Best Friend already have love as brothers/sisters existing and its much easier to take brotherly love and turn it over to intimate/romantic love as the MC adjusts to life in their new form (for these permanent style GBs) even kasimasi follows this to the yuri end.
I leave another example: the aquarium scene with Fuji an Takeru where Mizuki is getting jealous of the two (the author did a great job here) adding to this frustration is that Mizuki doesn't under stand who She is jealous for. In fact this type of this genre makes a great hyperbole for other things.

Not the oldest, but a good standard to measure any light manga or anime. (even non-genderbender ones.)

I object to the implication that sexual preference has much if anything to do with genetics. Certianly you can say that there is a higher probability of your sexual preferences fitting into expected gender roles than not. I have read estimates that suggest roughly 10% of the populuation is homosexual. That said, a substantial number of people spend their whole lives hiding their sexual orientation. That might make it sound like people have a 90% chance of being "straight", but this is not even close to the case. In reality, sexual preferences are WAY more complex and nuanced than straight or gay. Maybe a person is fully bisexual. I have a friend who is bisexual, but much prefers relationships with women. Perhaps a person identifies as "straight", but will still engage in sexual activity with same sex partners. (This happens more than you might think.) Perhaps a person is born male, but identifies as female, and is sexually attracted to women. Is this person "gay"?

Even a very limited amount of research will show that homosexuality is not a trait that is linked to ANY known set of genes. It is also not passed along family lines. And please, no one make the argument that people who identify as homosexual do not conceive children. Having children is incredibly important to some people, there are plenty of ways to make that happen. Most importantly, it actually does happen.

I think the important takeaway here is that gender identity and sexual preference is just not a binary system. Humans are highly complex animals. Whatever your sexual preference or gender role, people just want to be happy. I for one, much prefer spending time with happy people.

I think one of the primary tensions in Boku Girl is not the main characters sexual preference, but that for that vast majority of his life, "he" was compelled to "be manly". There has been a lot of interesting things written about the effects on men and society from this concept of toxic masculinity. Never show your feelings, always be the strongest, defeat all opponents, don't cry, accepting help is weakness. Bottle everything up inside, shoulder every burden, and work until it kills you. Lot's of men never escape from this cage. This ethos has been fed to them since infancy. The MC certainly did not show any signs of escaping it let alone questioning it. Indeed "he" was trying to force these ideals on others.

A few things, Sexual orientation is genetic, however it is also fluid. And directly tied to the amount and type of sexual hormones in your body.
A cis-gender male, it’s the testosterone that causes attraction to either male or female. Remove T and sexual attraction drops significantly, add estrogen and you become attracted to the opposite thing.
Conversely, females Estrogen triggers sexual attraction, and T in tiny amounts triggers desire. (Women have a tiny amount of T, adrenal glands produce T.) However, remove the ovaries, and add T and women switch attraction. (Which is why a small % of FtM start as lesbians and remain attracted to women, it’s because they do not have to remove the ovaries, and many choose to keep them.)

Edited by gothicshark, 30 August 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[takahashifan]

So here's the thing: being as this is a GID discussion I think it is useful, maybe to give a clear and sicinct Christian perspective while I had intended not to. I do really think that such an opinion maybe refreshing especially since I'm not a fire and brimstone kinda Christian but a laid-back tell it like it is kinda Christian. I'm also not going to thump a bible but will still use precepts from it and try to be as clear as possible and maybe add something to this discussion mainly for His purposes. So here's where I give it my best shot.
First some background:
What is sin? (Romans 1) Sin is anything and everything that denies or distorts the personhood, existence, nature and image of God. In which most already know the story of the first sin with Adam and Eve and the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Which placed the mark of original sin that everyone bears at birth. This is a spiritual mark that manifests itself in various ways in different people. One of these ways is a denial of things which should be obvious. I was taught a while ago that the physical follows the spiritual, of which I have yet to find something to disprove this; anyway...this is where GID fits as a manifestation of original sin, where by the person effected begins in whatever order to deny God by denying His command which determined a person's biological attributes. As GothicShark had pointed out without realizing it; whereas i think God's push is for us to overcome ourselves in this case but not in the way you would expect. Here's where I'll point out that the mainstream Christian community has done God a disservice by not wanting to speak honestly on this and other matters and instead resorted to outright hostility instead of a good and poiniant argument presented in a loving manner while pointing back to the cross (as the saying goes). That written, GothicShark pointed out that this notion of GID is a spiritual matter of which a component is psychological. Again this too is correct, but also returns back to the original point in the explanation of "what is sin?"
Is now the next part: "God is loving, then why allow someone to go through something like this topic? Short answer is, we are all image bearers of God and He wants us to live up to that image of himself which he placed in us by realizing that in giving us the choice we might (this being most likely) make a choice that is self-distructive (give in and give up) or to realize that we are incapable of make the right choice without him and therefore choose to depend on God's guidance and provision thereby overcoming that manifestation of sin. This is really what it boils down to. Before you ask, as has been pointed out by others the psychological suffering and everything else associated with this (for lack of a better word) condition, my best answer for why God allows such a thing (though it doesn't seem this way) for both God's and the individual's benefit.
Now I realize I a will only go in circles from here so that is it a biblical Christian perspective on This GID discussion. Now for for fire bible beatings and brimstone; just kidding.

[gothicshark]

So here's the thing: being as this is a GID discussion I think it is useful, maybe to give a clear and sicinct Christian perspective while I had intended not to. I do really think that such an opinion maybe refreshing especially since I'm not a fire and brimstone kinda Christian but a laid-back tell it like it is kinda Christian. I'm also not going to thump a bible but will still use precepts from it and try to be as clear as possible and maybe add something to this discussion mainly for His purposes. So here's where I give it my best shot.
First some background:
What is sin? (Romans 1) Sin is anything and everything that denies or distorts the personhood, existence, nature and image of God. In which most already know the story of the first sin with Adam and Eve and the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Which placed the mark of original sin that everyone bears at birth. This is a spiritual mark that manifests itself in various ways in different people. One of these ways is a denial of things which should be obvious. I was taught a while ago that the physical follows the spiritual, of which I have yet to find something to disprove this; anyway...this is where GID fits as a manifestation of original sin, where by the person effected begins in whatever order to deny God by denying His command which determined a person's biological attributes. As GothicShark had pointed out without realizing it; whereas i think God's push is for us to overcome ourselves in this case but not in the way you would expect. Here's where I'll point out that the mainstream Christian community has done God a disservice by not wanting to speak honestly on this and other matters and instead resorted to outright hostility instead of a good and poiniant argument presented in a loving manner while pointing back to the cross (as the saying goes). That written, GothicShark pointed out that this notion of GID is a spiritual matter of which a component is psychological. Again this too is correct, but also returns back to the original point in the explanation of "what is sin?"
Is now the next part: "God is loving, then why allow someone to go through something like this topic? Short answer is, we are all image bearers of God and He wants us to live up to that image of himself which he placed in us by realizing that in giving us the choice we might (this being most likely) make a choice that is self-distructive (give in and give up) or to realize that we are incapable of make the right choice without him and therefore choose to depend on God's guidance and provision thereby overcoming that manifestation of sin. This is really what it boils down to. Before you ask, as has been pointed out by others the psychological suffering and everything else associated with this (for lack of a better word) condition, my best answer for why God allows such a thing (though it doesn't seem this way) for both God's and the individual's benefit.
Now I realize I a will only go in circles from here so that is it a biblical Christian perspective on This GID discussion. Now for for fire bible beatings and brimstone; just kidding.

 
Wrong interpretation of what I said. Being Trans, is not linked to 'the Original Sin', for one thing I'm an Atheist Agnostic, and a biblical scholar. 
 
Christ spoke on many topics, but surprisingly in a world were Homosexuality was common, he never once mentions it.
 
(the Romans had Cultural Homosexuality/Bisexuality, they ruled over the Middle East for a few hundred years, and Prior to them it was the Greeks, who ruled the Area, and we all know how normal it was to be gay and Greek)
 
But Christ did speak about Transsexualism, during the time Christ was alive, there were 3 Genders, Male, Female, and Eunuch . Eunuchs were born male but counted as Female in society, they were used as Slaves and guards for women, they were often used as priests in pagan religions. 
 
So What did ישוע (Yeshua aka Jesus in Modern English) say? 
 
Matthew 19:12: (King James version)
 
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive.
 
You can replace the word Eunuch with Transgender.
 
For there are some Transgenders, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some Transgenders, which were made Transgender of men: and there be Transgender, which have made themselves Transgender for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive.
 
Since Christ did not treat being a Eunuch as a Sin, but instead makes it clear he thought it was a blessed state, being Transgender is a blessing from God according to the Bible. 
 
I feel I need to expand on this. 
which were so born from their mother's womb = This today would be the typical transperson, you are born feeling as the wrong gender. Back in Christs day, these people would grow up and become Eunuchs by choice, they would be treated as women, marry men, work in professions were only women were allowed. 
 
which were made eunuchs of men = Today this practice is mostly found in places like Thailand, where parents will partially transition their boys, and sell them into prostitution. aka "LadyBoy". Back in Christ day, parents could sell their sons as Eunuchs and like wise they would be used in prostitution, or as trained slaves ie singers, and Harem guards. This practice was maintained until the modern era, ie in Italy until Mussilini it was common for boys to become castratos so they could sing for the Catholic church, they were treated as a third gender between male and female. In the Middle East the Ottoman Empire  maintained Castrated slaves until the end of the First World War, they were used as sex slaves as children, and then if they converted to Islam they could be treated as women, or join the Military as special elite units. Mameluke & Janissary are classic examples. 

 

which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. = not so common today, India has a Priest Class that falls in this category. the Hijra, Aravani, Aruvani or Jagappa. 

Edited by gothicshark, 07 September 2015 - 01:30 AM.

[SaitamaBro]

 
 Christ spoke on many topics, but surprisingly in a world were Homosexuality was common, he never once mentions it.

He does mention sexual immorality. In case you don't know, homossexualism is considered as sexual immorality by christianity. This also includes the men who chose to become women(like the ones you describe as eunuchs that were born eunuchs) as effeminate men won't go to heaven. He also describe marriage as one man and one woman. Do i need to tell his opinion on sex outside of marriage?

 

 

 
Since Christ did not treat being a Eunuch as a Sin, but instead makes it clear he thought it was a blessed state, being Transgender is a blessing from God according to the Bible. 

I'm wondering where do you get this idea tha eunuch = transgender. Jesus was talking about people who didn't want to get married and neither have sex(because having sex without being married is also considered sexual immorality), people who couldn't since they were castrated and people that can't have children because of some birth defect. This after one of his discipules say that it's better not to marry.

 

 
I feel I need to expand on this. 
which were so born from their mother's womb

Someone who were born impotent and can't procreate.

[gothicshark]

He does mention sexual immorality. In case you don't know, homossexualism is considered as sexual immorality by christianity. This also includes the men who chose to become women(like the ones you describe as eunuchs that were born eunuchs) as effeminate men won't go to heaven. He also describe marriage as one man and one woman. Do i need to tell his opinion on sex outside of marriage?
 
 
I'm wondering where do you get this idea tha eunuch = transgender. Jesus was talking about people who didn't want to get married and neither have sex(because having sex without being married is also considered sexual immorality), people who couldn't since they were castrated and people that can't have children because of some birth defect. This after one of his discipules say that it's better not to marry.
 
Someone who were born impotent and can't procreate.

 
 
I have studied the bible cover to cover. Not once did Christ speak on sexuality, or sexual matters. Now Paul, who once was Saul did speak on that subject, and he lowered the bar from strict Israeli Jewish interpenetration. Christianity, if based on Christ, has no such dogma. Now if you have a badly translated version of the Torah, and put your own spin on it, then yes the Old Testament outlaws Homosexuality specifically, right after Pork, Game Bird, Mixed fabrics, and right before the many rules about women not speaking, and a bunch of rules for heterosexuals and how they must live. 
 
As to Transgender, no where does it mention Transgender. However the old and new Testament talks a lot about eunuchs, and basically they are OK according to the bible. Now in ancient times, up until 100 years ago, if you were transgender, you could make the change by becoming a eunuch. In fact current laws for male to female transgender, require SRS, before legal status can be changed. This is a hold over to traditional interpretation. Eunuchs counted as female legally.