46 replies to this topic

[Aereus]

To have less clutter in the main comments, I'm creating this discussion thread for everyone to use. Feel free to talk about anything related to gender, gender identity dysfunction (GID), social norms/expectations, etc.

[ThCp]

Is it there someone who would kindly explain to me what is all the fuss about? The fact that the MC could end up with his/her friend should be considered as yaoi? Or what else?

[Christine Guinn]

I'm surprised that people can buy the idea that a character could completely change gender, (down to the chromosome level apparently), but would NOT change their sexual preference.  That seems to be the biggest complaint I've heard. People seem to hate it when the guy turns into a girl, then falls in love with their best friend.  (Idol Pretender, Megu Mikuru. etc., and apparently this manga seems headed that way as well.)

[Periodic No. 79]

I'm surprised that people can buy the idea that a character could completely change gender, (down to the chromosome level apparently), but would NOT change their sexual preference.  That seems to be the biggest complaint I've heard. People seem to hate it when the guy turns into a girl, then falls in love with their best friend.  (Idol Pretender, Megu Mikuru. etc., and apparently this manga seems headed that way as well.)

Isn't that only natural? The main reason I see so many Gender Bender Manga go this direction is because  most boys who go under those gender bender simply like the girl, and liking could be from just a mild interest in her to a full blown crush. However even with all those feelings there is no relationship between them or any type of trust; meanwhile, the MC has a trusting and comfortable friendship with his best friend who has his back no matter what. From my viewpoint, a typical girl tends look for guy that is comforting, supporting with the thought of knowing he always going to be there for her when she needs help. The process of Changing Gender is an frightening experience and let's just say there's a reason why princess want a knight in shining armor.

[Christine Guinn]

Isn't that only natural? The main reason I see so many Gender Bender Manga go this direction is because  most boys who go under those gender bender simply like the girl, and liking could be from just a mild interest in her to a full blown crush. However even with all those feelings there is no relationship between them or any type of trust; meanwhile, the MC has a trusting and comfortable friendship with his best friend who has his back no matter what. From my viewpoint, a typical girl tends look for guy that is comforting, supporting with the thought of knowing he always going to be there for her when she needs help. The process of Changing Gender is an frightening experience and let's just say there's a reason why princess want a knight in shining armor.

I'm in agreement as the WHY the MC might fall for his male friend after changing gender.  I'm just surprised that readers can accept the idea of a gender change, and a yuri relationship with the gender-swapped MC and another girl, but they cringe at what would be a now "normal" relationship between the gender-swapped MC and a male friend.  They seem to regard it as yaoi, even though technically it's not, (since the MC is now a girl.)

[Periodic No. 79]

I think you're right when you say they regard it as yaoi because the MC is viewed as a trap by the looks of it to those people at that turning point. I read Gender-Bender manga where the sex of the character playing the female role was hidden (with cross-dressing) and when the person's gender was revealed as a man or worse not reveal at all, many people felt they had wasted their time read it. Its like they have been tricked into reading yaoi ,which is something people usually want a head ups if they're reading that so they can drop it. The biggest question i would have is if the MC does change back to a male in a manga would those feelings he/she had remain?

[Artimise]

What about Kashimashi: Girl meets Girl, that's a genderbender that involves a yuri relationship if memory serves.

[Christine Guinn]

What about Kashimashi: Girl meets Girl, that's a genderbender that involves a yuri relationship if memory serves.

I've read that one, and like I said, people don't seem to have a problem with it if it's considered yuri.  It's stuff that could be considered yaoi that they have a problem with,  Think of something like "Reversible! School Life."  That's all traps, and yaoi.

[Artimise]

I've read that one, and like I said, people don't seem to have a problem with it if it's considered yuri.  It's stuff that could be considered yaoi that they have a problem with,  Think of something like "Reversible! School Life[/size]."  That's all traps, and yaoi.

True, but you also have to remember that doujinshi like this are typically aimed towards a "Male" audience. I don't think too many would really be into "yaoi" scenarios.

Now if we were to do a flip side of this and have it so a female character was turned male then fell in love with her male friend, that would certainly mix things up. I personally don't care for shonen-AI or yaoi manga's but if that's your cup of tea, more power to you. Who am I to judge? I'm reading a manga about a guy turning into a girl and potentially falling in love with her(his?) best friend. Kinda twisted if you think about it since I'm a straight guy who wants to see a former guy hook up with another guy!

If that makes me a yaoi fan or some mixture of the genres then so be it. I don't even really care for Yuri or Shojou-AI manga's either, just not my cup of joe.

Real relationships typically don't work that way, and I can see how some folks can argue that. But real relationships don't involve mythical god(desses) transforming or genetic make ups to become the opposite sex.

Ultimately, I just try to enjoy the material, and so far, I anxiously await every volume. So much so I'm going to be ordering the manga's from Japan and trying to read them before the scanlations go through. Will help me in my Japanese class anyway.

[Nyu]

I've read that one, and like I said, people don't seem to have a problem with it if it's considered yuri. It's stuff that could be considered yaoi that they have a problem with, Think of something like "Reversible! School Life[/size]." That's all traps, and yaoi.

I have to agree here, there is a nice fine line between yaoi and whole trap theory. Though in this manga, I believe they made the MC of this manga a girl to begin with, and just said it was a boy (personally I like the comic, but to me its like they drew a girl and portrayed him as a male)

As far a yaoi goes, no. Biologically speaking, the MC doesn't count as yaoi (not saying he won't eventually, but as of now he is female, and is currently impossible as he lacks the sexual reproductive organs needed). However the other guy who is always running around with panties on is a totally different story...

That being I don't see why they would look for yaoi in a gender bender manga or not, and not read it over something so little. If its gender bent and they know it, them to get disgusted by seeing some yaoi is a bit melodramatic. Its gender bender for crying out loud, if your not gonna read it what are ya doing in the Gender Bender genre anyway? (・・; )ゞ

(On the downside Kashimashi is also adapted into an anime, I wish I had saved myself the trouble reading it, as it wasn't very good..)

True, but you also have to remember that doujinshi like this are typically aimed towards a "Male" audience. I don't think too many would really be into "yaoi" scenarios.

And I beg to differ, sir. I find yaoi....most interesting (≧▽≦)

Edited by Nyu, 11 September 2014 - 12:33 AM.

[Artimise]

And I beg to differ, sir. I find yaoi....most interesting (≧▽≦)

I personally don't share this sentiment, but I respect your personal tastes in anime/doujin/whatever

Just not my cup of tea personally. I'm an odd one I guess, being attracted to transgender genres, yet having an aversion to yuri/yaoi material. Futa is another theme that is a major turn off for me, but again, just my preferences.

I will say that I hope someone, someday makes a series that would appeal to yours and many others tastes.

Peace!

[Christine Guinn]

I'm an odd one I guess, being attracted to transgender genres, yet having an aversion to yuri/yaoi material. Futa is another theme that is a major turn off for me, but again, just my preferences.

Not odd, really.  I'm not really into yaoi/yuri either, (although I can tolerate yuri a little more.)  I'm fine with the transgender stuff, and traps.  Futanari is tolerable.

Then again, I'm coming at this from a somewhat unique perspective, since I AM transgender.

[Artimise]

Not odd, really.  I'm not really into yaoi/yuri either, (although I can tolerate yuri a little more.)  I'm fine with the transgender stuff, and traps.  Futanari is tolerable.

Then again, I'm coming at this from a somewhat unique perspective, since I AM transgender.

Mad respect to you, it takes a whole lot of courage to go through a sex change IMO, considering the stigma that society has with LGBT's. My brother is gay, and has a very good friend who happens to be TG. I myself, when I was younger pondered, and even desired to be the opposite sex.

That's a discussion for another day of course.

[Teriguu]

Futanari hentai is fun since it takes an all out approach completely going over the ideas of gender. What I find most annoying with much manga is that it's usually so normative, I always end up like; "hey, it's fiction, so why reproduce boring conventions?!".

[Yaomo]

To have less clutter in the main comments, I'm creating this discussion thread for everyone to use. Feel free to talk about anything related to gender, gender identity dysfunction (GID), social norms/expectations, etc.

gender identity disorder

though things have been reclassified, and a gender identity that differs from the gender assigned at birth, is no longer considered a mental disorder.

[Periodic No. 79]

I have to agree here, there is a nice fine line between yaoi and whole trap theory. Though in this manga, I believe they made the MC of this manga a girl to begin with, and just said it was a boy (personally I like the comic, but to me its like they drew a girl and portrayed him as a male)

As far a yaoi goes, no. Biologically speaking, the MC doesn't count as yaoi (not saying he won't eventually, but as of now he is female, and is currently impossible as he lacks the sexual reproductive organs needed). However the other guy who is always running around with panties on is a totally different story...

That being I don't see why they would look for yaoi in a gender bender manga or not, and not read it over something so little. If its gender bent and they know it, them to get disgusted by seeing some yaoi is a bit melodramatic. Its gender bender for crying out loud, if your not gonna read it what are ya doing in the Gender Bender genre anyway? (・・; )ゞ

(On the downside Kashimashi is also adapted into an anime, I wish I had saved myself the trouble reading it, as it wasn't very good..)
And I beg to differ, sir. I find yaoi....most interesting (≧▽≦)

So dealing with the sexual reproduction organ MC would be classified as a girl, but not a woman since the MC has not gone through the trials of womanhood.

Edited by Periodic No. 79, 25 September 2014 - 08:09 AM.

[Christine Guinn]

So dealing with the sexual reproduction organ MC would be classified as a girl, but not a woman since the MC has not gone through the trials of womanhood.

Well, we haven't seen Mizuki get her period yet, if that's what you mean, however looking at future chapters, it does appear to me at least that Mizuki's breasts are getting bigger.

Edited by Christine Guinn, 26 September 2014 - 12:38 PM.

[IlikeLolis]

I'm quoting a hentai manga manga but "if it's cute, then gender doesn't matter!" Though I'm paraphrasing a bit.

While I might not read yaoi often I still do from occasion, usually when one character is a trap or cute male it makes it easier and more stimulating than seeing two handsome men hookup. Though this just might sound like turning one of the males into a female avatar to help appease my heterosexuality, at the end of the day it is usually made very aware he has a bulge in his pants.

Alternatively Yuri almost solely has 2 attractive or cute ladies falling in love, and I just can't get enough of that.

As far as genderbenders go, I think it largely frees up the sexuality part of the equation because remaining mentally straight causes Yuri action, and turning gay gives us a hetero relationship. So in the large part their choice on a relationship doesn't much matter.

I think people who embrace open sexuality will find any reason to approve genderbenders while those still traditional to gender roles may find fault at a given chance.

Case and point, MC's best bud falls in love with home despite knowing he's a guy, yet Nanatarou vehemently disbaleives he was ever male to begin with. If he ever changes back, we can assume Ryou may still have romantic feelings yet Nanatarou would drop the idea like a bad bra. Much like the reaction of the fan base, the characters all have their own limits and beliefs on what is an acceptable relationship.

[merkkari]

Biological sex and gender identity are two completely different things.

 

So, if the MC identifies as male (while still being biologically female) and likes guys in a sexual matter, he would be gay. Then it would be yayoi. Only by knowing what the MC identifies himself as (female/male/something from between) and wether he likes girls or boys (or who he ends up with) will tell us what his sexual orientation is: gay, straight or bi. Though my own personal feeling is that he's more of a bisexual than neither straight or gay.

 

Also I'm pretty sure that the MC isn't so sure about his own gender identity at the moment, so we can't really know if it's yayoi/yuri or neither. Only later we will be sure.

 

PS. why does English language have to have he and she pronouns? Why couldn't there be some gender-neutral pronoun like in my language (Finnish, we only have "hän" pronoun and we can also use "it" pronoun when talking about a person, in Finnish: "it" = "se")

 

PPS. I hope the picture is helpful

[Ishin Hazue]

Thanks merkkari, I used to read some Intersexual related manga (with tons of drama) and would sometimes wonder about GID and stuffs

Your chart does clear things up better