33 replies to this topic

[chinilla]

This is probably a pointless thread, but I was just wondering about what everyone else s ideas are regarding ghoul biology and early life. Here are some of mine.

 

This is going to come off as really gross and maybe a little perverted,but I have a theory on ghoul babies. Since ghouls can only derive sustenance through human flesh, how can ghoul babies eat without teeth (I am assuming they are born much like humans since even dogs, who are mostly carnivorous, are born without teeth)? My gross little theory is that ghoul mothers's secrete blood through their breasts as opposed to milk. I know it sounds gross, but it makes sense if you think about ghouls in general.

 

My second theory is about kagune use. I was wondering if using their kagune is instinct or if it's something that they have to be taught to use. After some thought, I think that the majority of it must be instinct since we saw a young Touka attack an investigator with her ukaku in chapter 71. We don't know whether or not Ayato and Touka's father taught them how to use it, but judging by his overall behavior, it would not seem to be something he would be overly concerned about (especially since he seemed to want to coexist with people and only hunt when necessary). 

 

In chapter 34, Itori briefly went over the fact that only a ghoul mother and a ghoul father can naturally produce a ghoul, but she did not say anything about kagunes (aka RC types). Does a mother and father have to have the same type of kagune? Are there such things as recessive and dominant kagune types? After comparing notes on Hinami and Touka it appears that it is the luck of the draw in regards to what kind of kagune a ghoul child will inherit. The Kirishima siblings both have an ukaku kagune, but their father has a koukaku kagune (I am going be the TG wiki as a refresher, so I apologize if I am incorrect on any of the kagunes). Although not directly stated, we can assume that their mother was an ukaku type. The only thing that baffles me is hybrid kagunes like Hinami's (a mix of koukau and rinkaku). Her mother had a koukaku and her father had a rinkaku, so do some kagunes mix while others do not? 

 

Those are some my my thoughts anyone else have any ideas or questions?

[Jassim Al-Madeh]

Just what's wrong with the ghoul mother producing milk?  Milk stays the higher possibility.
I mean, no difference if the materials are from the mother at last... Right?

It doesn't have to be flesh and blood. Most of the human materials should be O.K. for ghouls after all.

 

I think that the majority of it must be instinct since we saw a young Touka attack an investigator with her ukaku in chapter 71.

That's right
Touka's also answeared the queastion, during her training with Kaneki. [Doves' Emergence]


What remains... Who knows?

* If ghoul embryos need human materials and mothers provide them through the "umbilical cord" probably,
then we can say that mothers provide them the same way for infnants but through milk?

Edited by Jassim Al-Madeh, 09 July 2014 - 12:05 AM.

[Traumatic Tomato]

More questions to throw out and some theories:

Where do ghouls come from?

Did ghouls evolve from humans? From how long have they existed?

Are there other types of ghouls around the world? Those of different ethnicity?

 

Theories (spoilers since these relate to the raws):

Spoiler

There are no traces or evidence (yet) that ghouls have existed for a long time. Why am I saying this? We haven't met a single character who can explain where they even come from. All they know are what they're able to digest, how to fight effectively and their natural instinct to survive through violence. What are ghoul traditions? Yomo prayed before he cut opened a deceased body when he was scavenging. Is this a tradition most ghouls have passed on or is it a recent habit Yomo thought of? Amon's adopted guardian, Donato Porpora is a old ghoul from Russia which suggests that not only are ghouls not racially limited to the Japanese, but there are older generations of ghouls in other parts of the world.

 

I theorize that ghouls were a recent invention, possibly from artificial rather than natural means. Since there are no evidence of traditions or origins of ghouls, perhaps they were created by a recent (At least 100 years ago, since Yoshimura doesn't show any evidence that he has a clue of where ghouls may have come from) government top secret experiment? Or have they been created by accident and this has been kept a secret. Maybe they originated from a nuclear fallout from Russia, Donato Porpora might know more about ghouls. He's a religious Christian ghoul, perhaps he sees himself or ghouls as holy creatures or demonic? The kanji for kagune or kakuja means bright or shining one, are ghouls seen as something holy, blessed with vigor that overshadow the rulers of the animal kingdom, humans?

 

Where does the CCG come from? Why are they run by the Washuu family as head and second-in-command of the organization? How does the CCG know about ghoul and ghoul technology that lead to the creation of quinques and q bullets? This could be answered when you think that they had a hand in the creation of ghouls, a guarded secret by the Washuu family? This is possible when their technology goes as far as the creation of artificial RC walls (Kanou's lab, a former CCG research facility) to the creation of half-ghouls; a project abandoned by the CCG.

Edited by Traumatic Tomato, 09 July 2014 - 12:23 AM.

[chinilla]

Just what's wrong with the ghoul mother producing milk?  Milk stays the higher possibility.
I mean, no difference if the materials are from the mother at last... Right?

It doesn't have to be flesh and blood. Most of the human materials should be O.K. for ghouls after all.

 

That's right
Touka's also answeared the queastion, during her training with Kaneki. [Doves' Emergence]


What remains... Who knows?

* If ghoul embryos need human materials and mothers provide them through the "umbilical cord" probably,
then we can say that mothers provide them the same way for infnants but through milk?

 

With the whole blood thing, I was comparing known carnivorous animals and their habits to ghouls. I was thinking along the lines of how lions  will eat nothing but meat and yet (although they may ingest a little bit of blood) they rely on their mother's milk as cubs. The thing I latched on with ghouls is probably that chapter where Itori offered Kaneki a glass of blood. Admittedly, we don't know for sure if ghouls regularly drink blood or if it is perhaps an acquired taste among them. Basically, I was just hung up on the fact that ghouls cannot ingest regular food and drink. But now that you said that, it does make me wonder. Ghouls can drink coffee and water, so perhaps this rule does not apply to most beverages (if you can think of breast milk as a beverage  ). Plus, it would be milk coming from a ghoul after all and that makes a lot more sense then the whole blood thing (I always cling to my morbid machinations  ).

 

And I forgot about that part of Doves Emergence! Hehe. A theory based around something that is already a fact. Look at me go!

[Coralira]

Someone who knows a lot about genetics should come.
Hinami got lucky. I bet a Koukaku mixed with Ukaku would not turn out good.
But I guess in Touka's family the gene for being Ukaku is dominant. I hope I at least know that much about genetics lol. For the sake of passing it.

I'm also really interested in how ghouls would come about lol, but the author doesn't have to think that far.. It would be nice if he did though.
There wouldn't be really any reason for them only being able to eat human though, at least I think? Because I thought human meat actually isn't too different from other types. At least that's what I heard.
I don't think they would be drinking blood, just milk that obviously was made using human flesh.

[Jaded]

The biggest omission I want to see the author give some attention to is the ghoul situation outside of Tokyo.

 

I missed that mention of Amon's guardian in the manga. Apart from that, the manga makes little mention of ghouls entering or leaving Tokyo.  We  read about individuals moving about the different districts but no one ever mentions just getting out of Tokyo as an option. 

 

Are they easier to track outside of the cover of a big city?  Are their bigger badder ghouls roaming the more open areas?

 

I imagine the Americas would be undesirable for weaker ghouls due to firearms but countries like India and China seem like perfect feeding grounds. 

 

Of course, we have the affect the knowledge of ghouls would have on the world.  I would think gun laws might be relaxed a bit - I know I wouldn't be caught walking down a dark alley without something capable of dropping a large bear on my hip. And the anti ghoul research - we have seen chemicals that cripple ghouls.  You would think every nation would have banded together to work on such things. 

 

All of that makes me subscribe to the theory that ghouls are a relatively recent thing, or at least a significant population of them is. 

 

-ramble mode off. 

[HappyPanda]

 

And the anti ghoul research - we have seen chemicals that cripple ghouls.  You would think every nation would have banded together to work on such things. 

 

All of that makes me subscribe to the theory that ghouls are a relatively recent thing, or at least a significant population of them is. 

I would like to add on to this. Why can't they help the ghouls? Maybe if they banded up together they would be able to find some way of making them into humans or at least survive like humans do. If not, then why can't they do some more research on how ghouls work so then they can find a way of let them survive without killing. Example would be a fake version of human meat or a chemical they can inject or eat.

[AceOfSpace]

The biggest omission I want to see the author give some attention to is the ghoul situation outside of Tokyo.

 

I missed that mention of Amon's guardian in the manga. Apart from that, the manga makes little mention of ghouls entering or leaving Tokyo.  We  read about individuals moving about the different districts but no one ever mentions just getting out of Tokyo as an option. 

 

Are they easier to track outside of the cover of a big city?  Are their bigger badder ghouls roaming the more open areas?

 

I imagine the Americas would be undesirable for weaker ghouls due to firearms but countries like India and China seem like perfect feeding grounds. 

 

Of course, we have the affect the knowledge of ghouls would have on the world.  I would think gun laws might be relaxed a bit - I know I wouldn't be caught walking down a dark alley without something capable of dropping a large bear on my hip. And the anti ghoul research - we have seen chemicals that cripple ghouls.  You would think every nation would have banded together to work on such things. 

 

All of that makes me subscribe to the theory that ghouls are a relatively recent thing, or at least a significant population of them is. 

 

-ramble mode off. 

I would think that if ghouls were such a horrible problem in Japan and Japan alone, they would have those RC scanners with the metal detectors- but that's just my assumption. 

[Morbid_Charade]

As for the kagune, I think it's a mix of instinct (like in Touka's case) and training. Touka was in a desperate situation and lashed out unexpectedly. However, when Ryouko was killed Mado (I think it was Mado anyway) made a point of noting how she could barely use her kagune. This seems to imply that anything more than just barely bringing out the kagune requires a bit of training. So, I think if young Touka hadn't trained with her kagune then would have never become adept at using it.  

 

As for what baby ghouls eat, I have to agree with the arguments for milk. As others stated, carnivores can ingest their mother's milk despite only being capable of eating meat.  Besides that, ghouls can also eat other ghouls anyhow, so there's no reason they couldn't injest and digest their mother's milk.

 

Let's talk about ghouls in America, even with the lax gun laws... a ghoul isn't affected by a normal firearm. They would need the special Q-bullets, which Shinohara explained were quite difficult to make and also take up a lot of kagune resources. I'll assume that the chemicals used to make a ghoul as vulnerable as a human would also be in short supply since even the ghoul investigators aren't using those during battle. (Also, during a battle it'd be hard to hit a ghoul in the eye anyhow.)  Even if ghouls were native to Japan, they would be able to travel to other countries and perhaps go unnoticed there because of the small number. 

[x-cube323]

What if Kaneki will be the key for kind of "healing" the ghouls? Well "healing" might be the wrong word....

What if Kaneki's body can be used to change the nature of ghouls? (With nature I mean that whole "eating human flesh" thing)

As we know Kaneki is part human and part ghoul. I'm sure some genius scientists of the CCG can produce a sort of medicine out of Kaneki's body to allow ghouls to eat human food.

 

Maybe that's why Dr. Kanou creates halfbreed ghouls... HE'S LOOKING FOR A SOLUTION!!!

[Morbid_Charade]

What if Kaneki will be the key for kind of "healing" the ghouls? Well "healing" might be the wrong word....

What if Kaneki's body can be used to change the nature of ghouls? (With nature I mean that whole "eating human flesh" thing)

As we know Kaneki is part human and part ghoul. I'm sure some genius scientists of the CCG can produce a sort of medicine out of Kaneki's body to allow ghouls to eat human food.

 

Maybe that's why Dr. Kanou creates halfbreed ghouls... HE'S LOOKING FOR A SOLUTION!!!

Well, the problem is, Kaneki can't eat human food either. So it's not like he's special in that regard. Assuming a cure can be produced and it's not an evolutionary trait, then the CCG would need a ghoul that could actually eat human food to produce a cure. It's like how the blood of people who survive being infected with illness (and then healing from it) can be used to create vaccines and cures. It wouldn't work if they still had an active infection (like Kaneki's need for human flesh). 

Edited by Morbid_Charade, 09 July 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[favole]

Someone who knows a lot about genetics should come.
Hinami got lucky. I bet a Koukaku mixed with Ukaku would not turn out good.
But I guess in Touka's family the gene for being Ukaku is dominant. I hope I at least know that much about genetics lol. For the sake of passing it.
 

 

I don't remember much about Hinami's kagune but I checked the wikia and she's indeed a Koukaku + Rinkaku and I think she's having highly developed senses and she's also pretty strong: but you're right she got Lucky with both, seeing as a ghoul inherit the Kaguna of only one parent (that's what's written on the wikia).

 

Yomo is an Ukaku ? (I remember Ayato is, and I believe Yomo's their uncle)

 

Do we know what kagune Nishiki's sister had?

 

I never thought before that kagune could be inherited genetically, but after all, they're a part of ghouls, so they must be. (I'm glad to talk about genetic in a manga thread! ^^)
 

Well, the problem is, Kaneki can't eat human food either. So it's not like he's special in that regard. Assuming a cure can be produced and it's not an evolutionary trait, then the CCG would need a ghoul that could actually eat human food to produce a cure. It's like how the blood of people who survive being infected with illness (and then healing from it) can be used to create vaccines and cures. It wouldn't work if they still had an active infection (like Kaneki's need for human flesh). 

 

Besides, Kanou is torturing and using Rize for his experiments + because of him Kaneki went through a lot + the twins as well : which tells me he doesn't give a damn about his "projects", so I really don't think he's working on a cure for humanity and ghouls. I think he's selfish and doing it for selfish reasons (but the author can prove me wrong whenever he wants! )

Edited by favole, 09 July 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[chinilla]

New mook coming out that looks like it might address most of these questions (weird cover art): http://www.animate-onlineshop.jp/pn/%E3%80%90%E3%81%9D%E3%81%AE%E4%BB%96%28%E6%9B%B8%E7%B1%8D%29%E3%80%91%E3%80%8C%E6%9D%B1%E4%BA%AC%E5%96%B0%E7%A8%AE%E3%80%8D%E9%A9%9A%E6%84%95%E3%81%AE%E7%9C%9F%E5%AE%9F/pd/1275040/

[favole]

What's that about??

[HappyPanda]

What's that about??

I'm guessing it's going to tell about the background of ghouls, where they came from, etc. Stuff about ghouls pretty much.

[Talking Fishbone]

I would like to add on to this. Why can't they help the ghouls? Maybe if they banded up together they would be able to find some way of making them into humans or at least survive like humans do. If not, then why can't they do some more research on how ghouls work so then they can find a way of let them survive without killing. Example would be a fake version of human meat or a chemical they can inject or eat.

 

I think the reason why they don't help the ghouls 'evolve into humans' like you said is probably the issue on which Tokyo Ghoul is centered around. The fact that humans don't trust ghouls at all and view them as monsters/enemies.

Well if you think about it, if you meet human-like beings that killed humans with claw-like organs and ate human meat, normally people would think of them as disgusting creatures and treat them with animosity. What would you think of beings whose diet consists of your species? Like in the series, people naturally find ghouls repulsive and scary. They absolutely wouldn't think of developing ways to make ghouls 'survive' as humans like themselves. That's why most of the research we've seen them do regarding ghouls is about developing weapons to kill them instead.

 

That said, they probably have done research on ghoul biology etc via experimentation. That's probably how they knew about kakuhou etc and how the Rc suppressant serum was created. (Since the Rc suppressant serum is supposed to make a ghoul's resistance like a human's, I actually wonder how human-like ghouls will become without their Rc cells.) Thus the problem is less of whether they are researching on how ghoul works but more of the intention of the research. Maybe by the end of Tokyo Ghoul they will eventually come up with something to help ghouls?

-------

 

Spoiler

IIRC, Amon's adoptive father (who's a Russian ghoul) is being kept prisoner, right? It seems like he's still well and hasn't lost his sanity... which shouldn't be the case if he hasn't been eating for a long long time. Maybe they did develop something ghouls can eat?

 

And another small random question:

Spoiler

Since Kaneki has been eating quite a few ghouls after the Aogiri arc, do you think he can still pass through the Rc scan gate undetected? After all, eating that much ghouls has probably increased his Rc cells several times... Or, in the first place, was it as Kaneki guessed, the fact that he passed through the gate was because he still had remaining human parts rather than his Rc concentration (which I think probably wasn't lower than the average ghoul)? Then again, biologically, it seems like the main difference between ghouls and humans is only their Rc factor...

 

 

Someone who knows a lot about genetics should come.
Hinami got lucky. I bet a Koukaku mixed with Ukaku would not turn out good.
But I guess in Touka's family the gene for being Ukaku is dominant. I hope I at least know that much about genetics lol. For the sake of passing it.
 

 

From what I gathered, it does seem that Ukaku type is dominant and Koukaku type is recessive.

 

Having hybrid kagunes sort of reminds me of co-dominance in genes. Eg blood type AB. Since A and B blood types are both dominant, then the resulting blood type would be AB. (Unrelated, but concidentally Hinami's blood type is AB too, according to the wikia. LOL)

Then looking at Hinami's case, Hinami's mom has a Koukaku type and her dad's Rinkaku. It's possible that we're talking about levels of dominance in gene alleles.

Therefore, in terms of dominance in Rc type, Ukaku > Koukaku, Koukaku = Rinkaku.

 

And that is the extent of my knowledge in genetics. =u=ll

Wow, never knew that having studied Biology would come into such use one day.

 

Then again, I'm not so sure if Ishida-sensei actually considered this bit of biology when he drew the manga, so maybe it's best not to think too much into it?

[Coralira]

Haha yeah, but it's exciting.
I also wonder how they feed those ghouls in that detention center, they wouldn't make them cannibilize would they?
Is the manager an Ukaku by the way? I should probably be looking closer.

[Traumatic Tomato]

Haha yeah, but it's exciting.
I also wonder how they feed those ghouls in that detention center, they wouldn't make them cannibilize would they?
Is the manager an Ukaku by the way? I should probably be looking closer.

 

Probably the same way Yomo does, feed ghoul inmates poor human flesh (like expired food, but ghouls could have a high immune system and they're just fed to bare minimum). If the CCG made RC inhibitors, they most likely have other RC related products such as pure RC injections that act as simple supplements. The ghouls just don't have to starve and they're not treated the same as human prisoners.

 

From what I gathered, it does seem that Ukaku type is dominant and Koukaku type is recessive.

 

Having hybrid kagunes sort of reminds me of co-dominance in genes. Eg blood type AB. Since A and B blood types are both dominant, then the resulting blood type would be AB. (Unrelated, but concidentally Hinami's blood type is AB too, according to the wikia. LOL)

Then looking at Hinami's case, Hinami's mom has a Koukaku type and her dad's Rinkaku. It's possible that we're talking about levels of dominance in gene alleles.

Therefore, in terms of dominance in Rc type, Ukaku > Koukaku, Koukaku = Rinkaku.

 

And that is the extent of my knowledge in genetics. =u=ll

Wow, never knew that having studied Biology would come into such use one day.

 

Then again, I'm not so sure if Ishida-sensei actually considered this bit of biology when he drew the manga, so maybe it's best not to think too much into it?

 

That's an interesting theory. Perhaps a incomplete dominance would make a ukaku/koukaku hybrid? FMJ RC bullets, rinkaku/koukaku has a shield and blade type of kagune; Ishida can make hundreds of combinations. Then again, if there are certain types of recessive traits for kagunes then there would be less ghouls with kokaku than the other types in most areas of Tokyo.

[Talking Fishbone]

Oh dear, thinking about it again, I take back what I said about how Ukaku Rc types might be dominant over Koukaku.

There are too many unknown factors (ie we don't know the exact genetic makeup of Arata and Touka's mom). Hence it is inconclusive whether Ukaku are dominant over Koukaku.

 

I stand firm on the theory that Koukaku and Rinkaku are co-dominant though.

 

A little genetics lesson for those interested:

Spoiler

There are two gene alleles responsible for exhibiting a certain trait, each inherited from each parent. The genes can be dominant, co-dominant or recessive in relationship.

 

If a certain trait is exhibited, it has to be one of the following cases:

1. Dominant gene & dominant gene
2. Dominant-recessive
3. Recessive-recessive

The problem here is that we don't know Arata's or Touka's mom's genetic makeup for their Rc type.

 

For simplicity's sake, I'll use the following to represent the different Rc types:

• U- Ukaku
• K- Koukaku
• R- Rinkaku
• B- Bikaku

Arata's genetic makeup could be: KK, KB, KU (assuming where K>B, K>U)

KR is not included as KR is likely to be co-dominant in nature.

 

Touka's mom's makeup could be anything containing a U gene (she may or may not be a Ukaku): UU, UR, UK, UB

 

Now to make things more complicated:

You see, in order for Touka/Ayato to exhibit U, there are also 3 cases:

Case 1- UU (dominant-dominant)

Case 2- UK, UB, UR (where U>K, B and R)

Case 3- UU (recessive-recessive)

 

This would be much clearer with a possibility diagram, but I think I listed the combinations right. To sum up, there are too many combinations that can give you an U Rc type even if your dad's Rc type is K. You can't compare the dominance of the gene alleles.

 

K can actually be > U for dominance, and Touka/Ayato just happen to have UU for their makeup. Heck, K and U could even be co-dominant and Touka and Ayato just weren't as lucky as Hinami. 

 

All I can say is that there is too little data thus far it is inconclusive to say U>K. We wouldn't know about the dominance in Rc type gene alleles unless there's more ghoul families (other than Hinami's and Touka's).

 

Science, my friend.

 

 

That's an interesting theory. Perhaps a incomplete dominance would make a ukaku/koukaku hybrid? FMJ RC bullets, rinkaku/koukaku has a shield and blade type of kagune; Ishida can make hundreds of combinations. Then again, if there are certain types of recessive traits for kagunes then there would be less ghouls with kokaku than the other types in most areas of Tokyo.

 

 

Incomplete dominance is an interesting theory... but it wouldn't be the same as a co-dominant hybrid. The resultant kagune of an incomplete dominance for Ukaku & Koukaku will look like a different form of kagune, instead of a combination of both Ukaku and Koukaku. (Unlike Hinami's combination of both Koukaku and Rinkaku.)

 

I think incomplete dominance is unlikely though...

 

 

 

I've probably had more than enough genetics for today. /ends science rant

[chinilla]

I can't remember if this was stated in the manga before or not, but can ghouls get sick?