20 replies to this topic

[Shrimpeh]

It all started yesterday after the release of twgok 267.

The comment section was flooded with comments dicussing the latest chapters, when the mods decided to go delete some comments because of spoilers, and even gave warnings to some members....

i will qoute someone whom i agree with

Excuse me, mods, but what the hell is the point of a comment section where you can't speak about the current state of the manga without using spoiler tags? That's beyond ridiculous. People who are still in the middle of reading this would anyway not go around discussing it in a comment section, so why is it necessary to re-shape the comment section to cater to people who don't even use it? It's like having spoiler warnings on a discussion about The Lord of the Rings because someone who's only read the first book might come along. There should be absolutely no need for people who've read/watched something all the way to it's most recent installment to be wary in comment sections entirely dedicated to discussing that thing, because people who are not caught up and don't want spoilers would not actively seek out these discussions anyway. There's no one here to appreciate the use of spoiler tags, and those who are here are only inconvenienced by them.

and he is right, if the chapter is released, why do we have to use spoiler tags?

 

i mean, i spoiled myself a couple of times by reading the comment section before reading the manga, but i know it is my own fault that i was spoiled. It should be common sense that people there will be spoiled if they aren't up-to-date with the series.

 

The comment section here on Batoto is mostly used to discuss the latest chapters. While their are subforums for the series, members hardly use them, for whatever reason.

 

My Suggestion here is that spoilers should only count as such if the chapter hasn't been uploaded onBatoto / Scanlators websites yet.

 

[Eien No]

I would have to disagree with you there, friend. The comments section, at least the one on the comic's page is not for discussion, even if people have used it as so. It's a good place to tell newcomers about the Manga. General comments, if you will, about the Manga in its entirety.

The kind of discussion you're referring to should happen within a thread, like the one we're in right now. This is why most comics have a "latest chapter discussion" thread which is severely underused, tbh. I don't know what happened in the instance you're referring to but it is quite reasonable the way the moderators handled the situation. And I'm not kissing up here. I'm just noting that this had been discussed before and it makes perfect sense for the comments section to be void of major spoilers. It's kind of of like how on MAL there's a "review" section which is entirely separate from the forum dedicated to that particular way anime.

P.S. Posting on a phone is murder.

[Rol]

While I agree that users wanting to discuss it should go to the threads dedicated for it, sometimes it just feels like what you're commenting isn't worth a post in a thread but is fine in a comment like "Wow this chapter was really awesome" or stuff like this.

Although it doesn't really apply to this situation since there wouldn't be any spoilers in such comments.

[Shrimpeh]

I would have to disagree with you there, friend. The comments section, at least the one on the comic's page is not for discussion, even if people have used it as so. It's a good place to tell newcomers about the Manga. General comments, if you will, about the Manga in its entirety.

The kind of discussion you're referring to should happen within a thread, like the one we're in right now. This is why most comics have a "latest chapter discussion" thread which is severely underused, tbh. I don't know what happened in the instance you're referring to but it is quite reasonable the way the moderators handled the situation. And I'm not kissing up here. I'm just noting that this had been discussed before and it makes perfect sense for the comments section to be void of major spoilers. It's kind of of like how on MAL there's a "review" section which is entirely separate from the forum dedicated to that particular way anime.

P.S. Posting on a phone is murder.

well, as you said, everybody already uses the comment section as the ''latet chapter discussion'' thread, and most of the people don't find ir problematic, so...

 

i have an idea,

how about having 2 ''comment sections''?

one is spoiler-free, where we can tell newcomers about the comic, thanks the scanlators for the chappter, etc...

and the other one is like how we use it now, with a big shiny spoiler warning before it so people will now that they will get spoiled if they are not up-to-date.

information about unreleased chapters should be still be put in spoiler tags tough.

 

i know all of this could be avoided if people use ''latest chapter discussion'' thread, but nobody does.

[svines85]

Spoiler

It all started yesterday after the release of twgok 267.

The comment section was flooded with comments dicussing the latest chapters, when the mods decided to go delete some comments because of spoilers, and even gave warnings to some members....

i will qoute someone whom i agree with

and he is right, if the chapter is released, why do we have to use spoiler tags?

 

i mean, i spoiled myself a couple of times by reading the comment section before reading the manga, but i know it is my own fault that i was spoiled. It should be common sense that people there will be spoiled if they aren't up-to-date with the series.

 

The comment section here on Batoto is mostly used to discuss the latest chapters. While their are subforums for the series, members hardly use them, for whatever reason.

 

My Suggestion here is that spoilers should only count as such if the chapter hasn't been uploaded onBatoto / Scanlators websites yet.

 

Well, actually Threethumb isn't right, the bottom-line is that as the rules are now the comment section is only for "quick observations about the comic itself" and "long discussion.....is against our policy". 

 

http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/1821-general-hosting-guidelines-and-policies/#entry16339

 

http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/2464-under-revisonsuggestion-to-commenters-aka-official-policy-on-comments-the-differences-between-the-comic-page-forums-and-qa-board/

 

But you're right, people do, for whatever reason (besides the fact that it's there), seem to try to have convos there rather than in the forums.......even though it's sooooo obvious that the forums are the far superior venue/format to have such conversations in.  >_< 

 

Spoiler

well, as you said, everybody already uses the comment section as the ''latet chapter discussion'' thread, and most of the people don't find ir problematic, so...

 

i have an idea,

how about having 2 ''comment sections''?

one is spoiler-free, where we can tell newcomers about the comic, thanks the scanlators for the chappter, etc...

and the other one is like how we use it now, with a big shiny spoiler warning before it so people will now that they will get spoiled if they are not up-to-date.

information about unreleased chapters should be still be put in spoiler tags tough.

 

i know all of this could be avoided if people use ''latest chapter discussion'' thread, but nobody does.

 

Um, you do know you're basically describing exactly what's already here with the comments (brief, non-spoiler type comments/observations)  and the forums (anything goes within reason), right? 

 

And I know a lot of people try to make the argument of "oh, nobody uses the forums so I'm gonna do what I want and use the comment section however I feel like".......but you know, if you just look around at some of the member post counts........well, that argument isn't really true.  

[SoundSpark]

It's actually quite simple, the forums exist for those who wanna have lengthy conversations about a manga or chapter. The comment section is for short comments. Spoilers belong in spoiler tags, regardless if the chapter has been out for 1 year or 5 mins, it's simple its a spoiler. It all comes down to one thing when it comes to spoilers, put them in the correct tags and guess what, you'll be fine, don't do that and your comment will more then likely be removed.

Edited by SoundSpark, 13 April 2014 - 04:59 AM.

[DarkPrince]

Hmm...

I agree with the long comments belonging in the discussion forums.

But I don't think spoiler tags are necessary for the short/not-so-long spoiler comments in the Comment Section.

I doubt people check out the Comment Section to see if a comic is good or not WITHOUT EXPECTING SPOILERS.
I'm guessing most just check the rating, number of follows.

Also, I'm not really sure, but a "review" does not contain spoilers, right? AFAIK, the ones in MAL don't.

So if we really want a way to give newcomers a general idea of how good a comic is, we could have a Review(s?) Section.

The comment section should, IMO, remain as it has always been: Only super-long comments not allowed... [this IS how it's always been, riiight? .-.]

Edited by DarkPrince, 13 April 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[S.C.]

Spoilers go into spoiler tags. Plain and simple.

It's not rocket science, you know.

[DarkPrince]

I'm saying they shouldn't be considered spoilers in the comment section.
Same as how they're not in the forums.

[Shrimpeh]

it isn't about it being rocket science, it's about how majority uses it, and  99% of the members following along.

why not put a review section above the comment section, and leave the comment section like how everybody uses it now?

in the thread snives posted, people already said that, and i will qoute the last post from it:

 

 

The way I see it, there are three ways to tackle this issue.
Option 1: Enforce the policies and try to change the attitude/habit of the users of the site
Option 2: Do nothing and let the users continue using it the way they do now
Or
Option 3: Tweak the format a little bit. Maybe move the chapter lists above the forum section and have a review section similar to the comments box. So the sequence will be manga description » chapter lists » report/QA » review box » forum » comments. That way, new readers can get to the reviews with a lower chance of accidentally reading spoilers and up to date readers can still leave their comments in the comment section. But the question is, how difficult is it to tweak the format? It might be a big hassle if you have to do it individually to every manga. It'd be ok if you could just change it in one go though. Then, everybody goes home happy except maybe the admins(they have to change the format) and those who don't follow the current policy and post whatever they like in the comments (you have scroll down a little bit more but hey, it beats what would happen for you if the current policy is enforced)

Option 1 will be hard to do, since you can't really controll all comment section with there being thousand of comics on the site. And i don't think members will take it well.

Option 2 will lead to the same confusion as now, with mods removing comments anf giving warnings every now and then.

Option 3 is the same as my ''2 comment sections'' idea.

 

also, i know the discussion thread is only 1 click away, but internet people are a bunch of lazy humans, and will always use the easier/faster method, even if it is only a 1 second difference.

 

I agree with the long comments belonging in the discussion forums.

 

nobody uses the dicussion forums, and long comments are 99 % of the time in the comment section.

What's the point of writing a long ass Wall of text if nobody is gonna read it anyway?

[Rol]

Just close the comment section, it'll fix your problems.

[Eien No]

The flaw with your explanation is that you say no one uses the discussion boards when we're clearly using one right now. I think that with a little enforcement, this can be applied to the comics board as well. There is no need to go against the system in place as Batoto has already been very accommodating.

If all else fails, I think that perhaps disabling the comment section would even be beneficial and users would go to the boards to discuss the latest chapter which is, no doubt, the better method for discussing.

Going through pages is a lot simpler as there is no need to scroll all the way down after each comment page read. The very format of these boards permits the ease of conversation.

It's all a matter of readjusting. Shouldn't be too difficult. This is for the sake of everyone.

[svines85]

Spoiler

it isn't about it being rocket science, it's about how majority uses it, and  99% of the members following along.

why not put a review section above the comment section, and leave the comment section like how everybody uses it now?

in the thread snives posted, people already said that, and i will qoute the last post from it:

Option 1 will be hard to do, since you can't really controll all comment section with there being thousand of comics on the site. And i don't think members will take it well.

Option 2 will lead to the same confusion as now, with mods removing comments anf giving warnings every now and then.

Option 3 is the same as my ''2 comment sections'' idea.

 

also, i know the discussion thread is only 1 click away, but internet people are a bunch of lazy humans, and will always use the easier/faster method, even if it is only a 1 second difference.

 

nobody uses the dicussion forums, and long comments are 99 % of the time in the comment section.

What's the point of writing a long ass Wall of text if nobody is gonna read it anyway?

 

I've got to be honest, pretty much all I'm hearing in your comments is essentially "I don't want to follow the rules because I don't want to, change your rules  because I demand it to be so".

 

To me this whole thing, your stance and the attitude and comments others have made on TWGOK's comment board about the batoto policy regarding this situation really come off as nothing but petulant and self-centered.

 

And since you keep saying it, whether "the majority" are breaking rules or not still doesn't make it right.

[Shrimpeh]

Spoiler

I've got to be honest, pretty much all I'm hearing in your comments is essentially "I don't want to follow the rules because I don't want to, change your rules  because I demand it to be so".

 

To me this whole thing, your stance and the attitude and comments others have made on TWGOK's comment board about the batoto policy regarding this situation really come off as nothing but petulant and self-centered.

 

And since you keep saying it, whether "the majority" are breaking rules or not still doesn't make it right.

first of all, i didn't demand anything, i only suggested some things, with reasons why i suggested them.

 

And the majority doing something doesn't make it right, however it also means that the system in place isn't the right one or it isn't clear/obvious enough.

 

Why, for example, isn't there a warning near the comment section to not disccuss current chapters in there?

 

something like that for example will reduce the amount of people using the comment section for chapter discussionn...

 

P.s: i don't demand anything

Edited by Alex Shrimpostur, 13 April 2014 - 08:11 PM.

[Daktyl]

first of all, i didn't demand anything, i only suggested some things, with reasons why i suggested them.

 

And the majority doing something doesn't make it right, however it also means that the system in place isn't the right one or it isn't clear/obvious enough.

 

Why, for example, isn't there a warning near the comment section to not disccuss current chapters in there?

 

something like that for example will reduce the amount of people using the comment section for chapter discussionn...

 

P.s: i don't demand anything

You're not demanding anything, merely asking us to do something because you don't like our system (which you just admitted to not liking because people (assuming you as well) are just too lazy for it)

 

It's a great system, it just needs to be designed a bit better. For example, I didn't notice the fact that there was a section for "Comic Forums" on the comic page until my 4th or 5th month on the site (no lie). I plan on pitching some ideas to Grumpy about that, but that doesn't mean anything is going to change (and if it does, not fast. He's working on revamping the follows right now).

 

P.S. There isn't a warning there because there are rules that state there are not to be any spoilers in the comments. If, per the rules, there aren't any spoilers in there, there's no reason to warn against them... right?

[svines85]

Spoiler

first of all, i didn't demand anything, i only suggested some things, with reasons why i suggested them.

 

And the majority doing something doesn't make it right, however it also means that the system in place isn't the right one or it isn't clear/obvious enough.

 

Why, for example, isn't there a warning near the comment section to not disccuss current chapters in there?

 

something like that for example will reduce the amount of people using the comment section for chapter discussionn...

 

P.s: i don't demand anything

 

Look, all I see you saying is "everybody else is wrong but me", over and over and over. The staff came and told everybody to quit what they were doing and here you are saying they're wrong, not you. It's cut and dried to me, all I see is you and a handful of other people acting badly. 

 

The links I gave you were meant to show you that this had all come up before and been resolved, not to make you think like "oh look, here's some validation of why I'm right and the people who run this site are "wrong" "   >_< 

 

All you're saying, it's all little kid stuff to me, "well, then how come...?",  "well, why don't we...", "well, then they oughta..." ......... Yeah, you're just acting like you should get your way no matter what. 

 

As far as I'm concerned they should just close down those comment sections where people won't do what they've been nicely asked to do. It's not your site to get your way on "just because". 

 

And yeah, when someone asks you not to do something, you refuse, then someone tells you not to do something and you start complaining about it........yeah, that's pretty much what I see as "demanding" to get your way. 

 

Oh, and "the majority" you keep going on about, yeah that's just ridiculous. I'd hoped I wouldn't have to just come out and tell you that. You're talking about 1 page right now among what's probably tens of thousands of pages.........yeah, the majority ain't breaking the rules here, you're just rationalizing this in your own mind to convince yourself of, once again, how you're right and everybody else is wrong.  

[Shrimpeh]

*escapes from RL*

Spoiler

You're not demanding anything, merely asking us to do something because you don't like our system (which you just admitted to not liking because people (assuming you as well) are just too lazy for it)

 

It's a great system, it just needs to be designed a bit better. For example, I didn't notice the fact that there was a section for "Comic Forums" on the comic page until my 4th or 5th month on the site (no lie). I plan on pitching some ideas to Grumpy about that, but that doesn't mean anything is going to change (and if it does, not fast. He's working on revamping the follows right now).

 

P.S. There isn't a warning there because there are rules that state there are not to be any spoilers in the comments. If, per the rules, there aren't any spoilers in there, there's no reason to warn against them... right?

you are right,

and if even you didn't notice it, don't except other people too

altough in the begining i noticed them, but wondered why the hell is the Post count so low xD

and tbh, i never expected anything to happen, however discussing is better then just shutting up me thinks.

 

Spoiler

Look, all I see you saying is "everybody else is wrong but me", over and over and over. The staff came and told everybody to quit what they were doing and here you are saying they're wrong, not you. It's cut and dried to me, all I see is you and a handful of other people acting badly. 

 

The links I gave you were meant to show you that this had all come up before and been resolved, not to make you think like "oh look, here's some validation of why I'm right and the people who run this site are "wrong" "   >_< 

 

All you're saying, it's all little kid stuff to me, "well, then how come...?",  "well, why don't we...", "well, then they oughta..." ......... Yeah, you're just acting like you should get your way no matter what. 

 

As far as I'm concerned they should just close down those comment sections where people won't do what they've been nicely asked to do. It's not your site to get your way on "just because". 

 

And yeah, when someone asks you not to do something, you refuse, then someone tells you not to do something and you start complaining about it........yeah, that's pretty much what I see as "demanding" to get your way. 

 

Oh, and "the majority" you keep going on about, yeah that's just ridiculous. I'd hoped I wouldn't have to just come out and tell you that. You're talking about 1 page right now among what's probably tens of thousands of pages.........yeah, the majority ain't breaking the rules here, you're just rationalizing this in your own mind to convince yourself of, once again, how you're right and everybody else is wrong.  

 

look, we can discuss this the whole year about this being a demand or not, but i don't have time for that, if you understand/take my words as a demand, then so be it.

Edited by Alex Shrimpostur, 14 April 2014 - 07:53 PM.

[SoundSpark]

I'm saying they shouldn't be considered spoilers in the comment section.
Same as how they're not in the forums.

 

If the comment spoils something about a chapter it belongs in spoiler. That is why the spoiler tag exist.

[Daktyl]

I'm saying they shouldn't be considered spoilers in the comment section.
Same as how they're not in the forums.

To build off what SoundSpark is saying: Even in the forums, it is considered a spoiler. But in the forums, there can be topics dedicated to talking about the latest chapter, in which it's not a spoiler because everybody in the thread has obviously read up until where you are.
If you went to a thread that was a discussion about chapter 10 and threw in something that happens in chapter 25, it's still considered a spoiler.

P.S. I threw some mockups Grumpy's way for a redesigned Comic page. Don't know how much it should help with this issue (it might actually make it worse >.<) but I like the redesigned version more anyway.

[DarkPrince]

To build off what SoundSpark is saying: Even in the forums, it is considered a spoiler. But in the forums, there can be topics dedicated to talking about the latest chapter, in which it's not a spoiler because everybody in the thread has obviously read up until where you are.If you went to a thread that was a discussion about chapter 10 and threw in something that happens in chapter 25, it's still considered a spoiler.

The thing is, the discussion forums are used only for a handful of comics. And in all the rest, the comment section is used in place of them. Even in the comics that have slightly active discussion forums --take Again!! or Noblesse for example-- there's a greater number of members using the comment section for their discussions. The only exception to this [that I know of] would be Tower of God and Kubera forums and comic sections.

What I don't get is the sudden enforcement of the new rules. I don't think I've seen a single member complain about spoilers in the comment section.
Why change what no one has a problem with?
Discussing the comic, whether done in the forums or in the comment section doesn't make a difference, does it?

If it's about what the majority wants, I'm pretty sure it would be against a change in the system.
Sure most who posted here are for the change, but how many of them use the comment section at all?

More than half the members that do use the comic section to discuss comics most likely don't even know a place like this exists. Or they don't care.
They use the comment section cause it's easier to access.

A sudden rule change will bring unnecessary problems, IMO. Worst case scenario, we lose members.

Sure if there are a huge number of complaints against spoilers in the comment section [that I'm not aware of]
Or if somehow discussion in the comment section affects the site...
Then, none of what I said applies.
But otherwise :/ I honestly think this is a bad idea :|

Edited by DarkPrince, 16 April 2014 - 07:47 PM.