17 replies to this topic

[Valdeir]

Considering the nature of the manga's unfolding story and character development that may go on for some time. I thought it was best to move this discussion from a old very unfitting thread to a new one to keep the subjects separate and on topic. If this serves to help bring in more participants and readers directly then all the merrier.

I have copied over the most recent relevant posts here for convenience in order from oldest to newest descending.
 

I don't think it works that way. The seals seem to be some sort of Doomsday Clock. The more Takamiya fights and uses magic, the faster the process

Pretty much this is what I am thinking. It goes with out saying but his power is not his own. A borrowed power from some sort of all powerful malevolent being. So unless he destroys/absorbs/dominates/whatever her consciousness/soul/sentience/whatever with some kind of super uber amazing plot twist or another to wrestle control over her powers. He will just be more of a temporary pseudo cool guy that ends up being the herald of destruction in the end.

Not to mention if he does become a permanently strong and powerful MC in anyway depending on how the author wants to take this plot. It will be a 180 to the overall climate of the manga of this particular story. 28+ and whatever more chapters of a manga series just to build up a MC to take the manga in a whole separate direction? Nah... unless the creators are desperate to keep things fresh or it becomes some sort of retake on the "Legend of Maian" or the like. I am sure that will be very unlikely.

Oh god you mentioned Legend of Maian. That was a good story that was turned into a disater by IDY's award winning formula.- Men are weak and meant to be powerless and defenceless with out a strong woman by thier side! Or men who acctualy have power are unforgivable bastards.
Guy just loves shitting on his own story's with his man hating agenda.
(Acctualy surprised thou I thought IDYwas an extreme Female Feminest. The more you know~)

But Unbalence x Unbalence was just awesome! >w< But the formula was implemented in that story aswell. When that dude slapped or choked that guy's childhood friend for no reason and got his ass whooped. Didn't ruin the story thou.

Anyway time to focus! After reading this page I have to say a Yuri story would have been awesome! =w=

after all that has been said in the latest chapter, im more convinced that he has more hidden power (of his own) that you think.

my theory is that witches retain their own personality after each reincarnation. We know that Kazane is "hundreds years old", or something like that, there was a reference of her being a very very old being) but she attended high school with Katamiya's mom so she had a normal life cycle. My theory is that both Katamiya and Kagari are witches of old whose memory has been wiped for some reason. Once they regain their memories, they will regain their powers, and i suspect Katamiya will be the one gaining more from it.

Now continuing in response from the above post by Maffa.

This is a valid point.
Whatever higher power of the manga/anime universe knows that certainly it is a all to common plot device. I agree that it is suggested that witches do reincarnate or otherwise live long lives and assume perhaps a life cycle of sorts. However as things stand as we know them currently there is at least a few obstacles in the path of your theory that need to be cleared up.
They retain their personality perhaps but its hard to gauge the nature of how this may work. What are the details? Do they reborn without memories? I know that was not the case for Kazane as she clearly recalls the crusades and her old associates as well. I guess they come to them later but still that does not explain Honoka's mother.

Also I do not recall there being anything at all suggesting that any of the Katamiya's where at all reincarnated or of any special decent. On the contrary its been vividly portrayed how ignorant and (for the words of the creators) helpless Honoka and his mother are. His mother and Kazane where portrayed as having a fateful meeting and becoming rather close during their school days as shown. The young Honoka was seen taken under the wing of Kazane in hopes of helping the "helpless/weak" boy to "become a man". For what the details may have been during this time is still a mystery currently. Though it is confirmed this all took place before the famed memory wipe.
As for Honoka's sister. Well in her own words its been implied that she is new to witchcraft and recently only perfected her magic. Also she admitted she did this and joined the workshop only for the sake of her brother.

One could say he is weak because he is a man. In Mikage's own words males have a lower standing in the witches society. Indeed this could imply they are just less adept at magic to whatever extent. However we have seen Honoka's potential and as a contrast to this point we also seen Mikage defeat another female witch. So they are absolutely not what you call helpless.

In the end though. For all the points I could toss around it is just as you said yourself a while back. There is simply too much we do not know still. As much as I enjoyed the recent filler chapters I am eager to see how this plot unfolds. It is a very interesting story and makes me appreciate conversations like this.

Edited by Valdeir, 12 March 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[maffa]

Good job in moving the discussion here

 

So, back to hypothesys.

 

We dont know how witches operate, but supposed that im right, and that they can reincarnate, and that they MAY retain their memories (Kazane could, for one, as well as Chronoir and i guess also Medusa is likely to), we know for sure that Takamiya and Kagari had their memories purposedly wiped out. Which memories? Their childhood memories only, or their ages old memories too?  

 

We know that Katamiya has Evermillion inside him, and that his tapping to her power has been sealed by the workshop witches for some purpose we dont know. Incidentally, the Tower witches want him to untap Evermillion's magic, even if the result is having said power blasted to their faces. I had a hunch that this was not another "Naruto - bijuu" case (i.e. a demonic possession after his birth), and had a sort of confirmation when we learned some of the details about the Takamiya-Kagari contract. I wrote this when Mikage sensei explained what had happened back then:

 

Spoiler

Takamiya and Evermillion have a link. we dont know what this link is about but it's a given. Evermillion is the source of Takamiya's power, be it latent or manifest. Evermillion asks something in return for giving out this power in a manifest form.

Takamiya formed a contract with Kagari. Takamiya is the master of this contract, Kagari is the passive or submissive actor, Evermillion is in the contract as a third party. The contract says that Takamiya gives a share of Evermillion power to Kagari, but in return all wounds taken by Takamiya return to Kagari.

Another piece of the contract is that if ever Katamiya asked Evermillion for all her power, Evermillion would take his life, thus ending the contract between him and her (Evermillion), and consequently Kagari.

Takamiya is the only one with the power to dissolve the contract.

But Kagari managed to instert another clause: should ever Takamiya ask Evermillion for all her power, thus giving his life in return, Evermillion would have taken her life instead of his.

As things are like that, the very same moment Evermillion agreed to such a pact (somewher in the past) she invalidated the life gift from Takamiya, because only Takamiya (and his life) can dissolve the contract, and not Kagari. Evermillion accepted Kagari's condition to end the contract, but she couldnt sign such a contract because she had not the power to end the contract between her, Takamiya and Evermillion.

In short, Kagari bargained a freebie "all out help" for Katamiya by Evermillion with no cost (if not the power exchange between Katamiya and Kagari herself)

 

This does not sound like something 5 year old kids can manage and bargain.  

 

So, to wrap things up. This is what i get connecting the dots. But since so many dots are missing this could be a Spanish galleon sailing at sea, as well as a dog licking its arse.

 

I believe Takamiya and Kagari are ages old, and lovers since forever. I guess Takamiya is for some reason the most powerful of the two, and that somewhere in time and space managed to harness Evermillion (or to make a demonic contract with her), and then formed a pact with Kagari in order to deliver some of this power to her: he plays as the safe container, she plays as the tank (the one that comes with the cannon). Since ages pass by, they may reincarnate in both male or female versions, maybe in order to be a couple (yeah i have been informed of same sex couples but bear it with me). But since "male witches" are weaker than females, and that maybe a male witch isnt believed suited to manage Evermillion, Takamiya has been sealed in order to keep Evermillion at bay. 

 

Another twist could be that -suspence!- Katamiya and Kagari are not supposed to be Workshop witches to begin with, but (powerful) tower witches of old. If we take Kagari's general behaviour, her selfishness and the uncaringness above all, that is a more tower witch's way of life than a workshop's. And if we consider that of the two she is the one that retains some memory of her past, including the nature of her feeling for Katamiya, and consider that Kagari is not Kazane's real daughter, and if we add all the efforts that tower witches are making to untap Evermillion again, this could be another plausible scenario (or the forementioned dog licking its balls, who knows).

 

 

So many thoughts, so little facts to base them onto...

Edited by maffa, 17 March 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[Valdeir]

If one thing is for sure right now is just how much potential this story has. I applaud the author for that. Even more so that the more I read into this story the more apparent this author might be one of those clever types that has a nack for some subtle misdirection and suspense. Your post reflects this nicely also. I am starting to have uncharacteristically high hopes for this manga. I would be delighted if your theories turned out to be correct or at least close to it. It would make for a very delicious story. I shamelessly would be a absolute sucker for the "Lovers since forever" one.

One of the two elements I always thought about is for one how Ayaka is just the spitting image of Evermillion. Even without her magical form. I believe it was mentioned by Weekend or someone else ((not exactly sure where)) that she is "related" to the white princess. Almost in the context that it could imply a deep relationship or even by blood perhaps. That is something to think about. Your theory has a potential tie in there.

Next is our towered enigmatic friend Chronoire Schwarz the VI. A puzzle piece that never seemed to fit anywhere quite just right. The seeming villain that could have been after the princess's power or the joker type of character that just likes to create a shit storm for good sport. However I think of neither. Even if they have their differences, she seems to be good old pals with Kazane and knows a whole heck of a lot more then she seems to let off right up there with Kazane. Perhaps she even knows more still. She does not seem to be after the power for herself. In-fact with all her actions up tell now I get the impression that Chronoire is not just looking after Honoka and Ayaka but also pushing them to something. Even if she is allied with Kazane to whatever degree. It is almost certain she has her own take on things. To what end is about impossible to tell. Again your theory would help tie this all together. Adding a nice place to put her puzzle piece.

Regardless to where this story leads I just hope this manga does not disappoint.

Edited by Valdeir, 15 March 2014 - 07:01 AM.

[MrAnarchist]

So many words. I'll read the discussion when I'm fully awake

Btw maffa:
Why do you say Katamiya?

Edited by MrAnarchist, 17 March 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[maffa]

you mean why i think Takamiya could be the stronger of the two? i guess because he has Evermillion inside him, and i guess that he forced her in. moreover it would be a nice 180 turn from what we already know, with him finally be the one wearing the pants in the house. 

 

by the way, i guess its manifest that the line between educated guess and wishful thinking is reeeeally thin.

 

And moreover, a little line said in the anime may put all this construction of mine in potential danger (cfr. 3.45): i dont know if that refers to something that pertains to the anime only, to give it a better closure since you said it's going to end soon and i dont know if there will ever be a second season and maybe they want to wrap it up like they did with Sora no Otoshimono, or if it's manga canon. trying not to spoil anything for those not following the anime, it smells a little too like nisekoi.

Edited by maffa, 17 March 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[MrAnarchist]

you mean why i think Katamiya could be the stronger of the two? i guess because he has Evermillion inside him, and i guess that he forced her in. moreover it would be a nice 180 turn from what we already know, with him finally be the one wearing the pants in the house. 
 
by the way, i guess its manifest that the line between educated guess and wishful thinking is reeeeally thin.
 
And moreover, a little line said in the anime may put all this construction of mine in potential danger (cfr. 3.45): i dont know if that refers to something that pertains to the anime only, to give it a better closure since you said it's going to end soon and i dont know if there will ever be a second season and maybe they want to wrap it up like they did with Sora no Otoshimono, or if it's manga canon. trying not to spoil anything for those not following the anime, it smells a little too like nisekoi.

No I mean why are you calling him Katamiya?

[maffa]

Ah LOl i just realised i inverted the first two syllables!

 

im correcting all of them

[Acewing]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned how much more competent Takamiya was during his youth, compared to how he is now.

 

Every hint and flash-back we've seen of him in his childhood expresses how not-dense/weak he is, and rather, he was the one to "save" Kagari from her predicament, and from the latest chapter we can conclude that:

 

He had no hesitance and prepped things up ahead of time before meeting up with Kagari for the first time ie; that magic circle.  I just find it to be astonishing how the contrast in character personalities is so immense.

 

This guy at 12 years old could easily be labeled as one of THE best MC's of all time.

[MrAnarchist]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned how much more competent Takamiya was during his youth, compared to how he is now.
 
Every hint and flash-back we've seen of him in his childhood expresses how not-dense/weak he is, and rather, he was the one to "save" Kagari from her predicament, and from the latest chapter we can conclude that:
 
He had no hesitance and prepped things up ahead of time before meeting up with Kagari for the first time ie; that magic circle.  I just find it to be astonishing how the contrast in character personalities is so immense.
 
This guy at 12 years old could easily be labeled as one of THE best MC's of all time.

They've explained this: memory wipe. Amnesia changes a person, as they forget who they once were. More often than not, memories are what shapes someone's personality.

[maffa]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned how much more competent Takamiya was during his youth, compared to how he is now.

 

Every hint and flash-back we've seen of him in his childhood expresses how not-dense/weak he is, and rather, he was the one to "save" Kagari from her predicament, and from the latest chapter we can conclude that:

 

He had no hesitance and prepped things up ahead of time before meeting up with Kagari for the first time ie; that magic circle.  I just find it to be astonishing how the contrast in character personalities is so immense.

 

This guy at 12 years old could easily be labeled as one of THE best MC's of all time.

Uh that's the very core of my theory TBH... 

[Nightdragon]

They've explained this: memory wipe. Amnesia changes a person, as they forget who they once were. More often than not, memories are what shapes someone's personality.

ok, so Takamiya went and took Evermillion from Kagari, so ch 35, it seems Takamiya did it out of kindness.

 

Either Mikage is on there side, or he is being a chessplayer and using them to further his own goals. Cause it seemed he asn't too happy about being second place in a witch's famliy. It could be that he didn't like what they where doing to Kagari either, but as a man in a witch's family he has less say so on the matters.

 

Tho with him more or less telling them they are now 'on there own' means that I think, he is on there side, but won't risk his place for them. Also it seems that Mikage may have been 'watching over her' considering ch14

 

Now it seems that the transfer of Evermillion didn't happen right away, considering they seem to have spent time together outside. So... also the scar on Kagari... now did that happen while Takamiya was doing something or where they attacked by tower witchs and Takamiya prevented Evermillion from going out of control...

[MrAnarchist]

ok, so Takamiya went and took Evermillion from Kagari, so ch 35, it seems Takamiya did it out of kindness.

Either Mikage is on there side, or he is being a chessplayer and using them to further his own goals. Cause it seemed he asn't too happy about being second place in a witch's famliy. It could be that he didn't like what they where doing to Kagari either, but as a man in a witch's family he has less say so on the matters.

Tho with him more or less telling them they are now 'on there own' means that I think, he is on there side, but won't risk his place for them. Also it seems that Mikage may have been 'watching over her' considering ch14

Now it seems that the transfer of Evermillion didn't happen right away, considering they seem to have spent time together outside. So... also the scar on Kagari... now did that happen while Takamiya was doing something or where they attacked by tower witchs and Takamiya prevented Evermillion from going out of control...

All in due time I guess. Another thing we need to remember is that Takamiya's mom has the same scar on her BACK, where Kagari has it on her STOMACH. Also, where did you get the idea that it was Kagari who originally held Evermillion? I'm not saying it's not possible since it would explain why Kagari was isolated, but your theroy stops short when you get to the scar. Also, the incident that caused the scar would have needed to be recent because scars shrink overtime (which people often forget sometimes), and considering Kagari's growth spurt, it'd be considerably small if she got it as a young child.

Edited by MrAnarchist, 13 August 2014 - 06:30 AM.

[Nightdragon]

All in due time I guess. Another thing we need to remember is that Takamiya's mom has the same scar on her BACK, where Kagari has it on her STOMACH. Also, where did you get the idea that it was Kagari who originally held Evermillion? I'm not saying it's not possible since it would explain why Kagari was isolated, but your theroy stops short when you get to the scar. Also, the incident that caused the scar would have needed to be recent because scars shrink overtime (which people often forget sometimes), and considering Kagari's growth spurt, it'd be considerably small if she got it as a young child.

yea i have just re-read the whole thing again

 

I think i figured it out...... After rereading it, in reality it seems the only reason Kagari is moving around is because of the pact between Her and Honoka. So that would mean that something happened to kill Kagari, which if at the time, Evermillion changes bodies, remember what Weekend said? "Why didn't he die? If he had died the power would have been mine" http://vatoto.com/read/_/228474/witch-craft-works_ch27--v2-_by_anonymous/16 which means the power can only be transfered at the death of the person who was holding the power. thus http://vatoto.com/read/_/250265/witch-craft-works_ch35_by_anonymous/20 however because the "burden" was now transfered to 'him' that means Evermilion was in Kagari, but went to Honoka, and in the lastest chapter it shows that Honoka knew magic, (how much we don't know) but he was able to create the contract between himself and Kagari. so save her life.

 

Also during the rereading found out the mother didn't like them being back together, but went along with Kagari anyway. And seemed to go along with him learning magic again. For whatever reason.

 

Also the whole thing about someone messing with the barrier... Thats the sensi's doing, as to what he is planing to do, maybe he will end up being the 'big bad' at the end, but he is using them as both a distraction, considering he knows about the seals being undone but hasn't reported, so clearly he is the "chessmaster" in the series, maybe along with the towerwitch that is a 'friend' of Kagari's mother.

 

As for the reason for the scar on Honoka's mother's back... maybe just maybe the same deal, she was dieing and Kanze did a similar kind of ritual. Tho that is 100% speculation at this point.

[MrAnarchist]

however because the "burden" was now transfered to 'him' that means Evermilion was in Kagari, but went to Honoka, and in the lastest chapter it shows that Honoka knew magic, (how much we don't know) but he was able to create the contract between himself and Kagari. so save her life.

Remember, all that had to be recent, unless (and this is the most likely scenario) the author forgot that scars shrink as a person grows.
 

Also during the rereading found out the mother didn't like them being back together, but went along with Kagari anyway. And seemed to go along with him learning magic again. For whatever reason.

Who's mother? Kagari's?
 

As for the reason for the scar on Honoka's mother's back... maybe just maybe the same deal, she was dieing and Kanze did a similar kind of ritual. Tho that is 100% speculation at this point.

Perhaps. As I said before: all in due time. For now, your theory seems pretty strong

[Nightdragon]

Remember, all that had to be recent, unless (and this is the most likely scenario) the author forgot that scars shrink as a person grows.
 
Who's mother? Kagari's?
 
Perhaps. As I said before: all in due time. For now, your theory seems pretty strong

I think the author forgot that scars shrink (well stay the same size)

 

Yes Kagari's mother

[MrAnarchist]

I think the author forgot that scars shrink (well stay the same size)

Yes Kagari's mother

I always remember this as I had surgery when I was a kid and the scar is practically invisible now, when is was very reconizable when I was young

[Sylveran]

Remember, all that had to be recent, unless (and this is the most likely scenario) the author forgot that scars shrink as a person grows.
 

 

 

That only works if you assume Mama Komachi is ageing at all. From the flashback in chapter 27 and one of the 4komas in vol 6, we are indirectly told that she hasn't aged at all in the past 2 decades. Who's to say the same thing keeping her young is not also keeping the scar constant?

 

[MrAnarchist]

That only works if you assume Mama Komachi is ageing at all. From the flashback in chapter 27 and one of the 4komas in vol 6, we are indirectly told that she hasn't aged at all in the past 2 decades. Who's to say the same thing keeping her young is not also keeping the scar constant?

An interesting theory. We can all but speculate at this stage