98 replies to this topic

[themantarays]

Um, Viole already has been roflstomping entire teams since the first arc of season 2, and SIU's pulled off most of season 2 pretty damn well.

[Mizura]

I'm actually not too worried about the ToG structure yet. If Viole goes around RoFL-stomping most floors, then SIU will simply skip those, and concentrate on the ones with plot development, like he's also done.

I suspect the story will move up a notch in terms of power-level, with the various large factions getting involved, anyway. SIU seems to have his major arcs planned, and he did say that the Princesses will make an appearance.

Edited by Mizura, 13 April 2014 - 04:35 AM.

[Boggyb]

Season 2 was built on external forces and ignoring that Baam is supposed to be essentially immune to Shinsoo.

[themantarays]

External forces =/= bad writing. How would you even write a good story without external forces? I mean, just focusing on climbing the tower would be about as interesting as a high school story that's all about studying. >.< Note that Kubera is basically 100% external forces.

 

And the fact that Baam has huge resistance to shinsoo is not ignored at all. The fact that he doesn't struggle against his peers means nothing because SIU (like any author) skips the parts that don't have an effect on the story.

[Mizura]

Rather than say external forces... Tower of God is apparently not just the story of Baam, even though he's been the main protagonist until now. Wangnan is supposed to be the main protagonist of Season 2 (though it really doesn't seem so). So, Season 3 may have yet another protagonist, such as a Zahard Princess (Yuri?), then Baam's progression could be shown through her eyes.

So, Tower of God may turn out to be a multiple-protagonists story like Kubera. Of course, Kubera and ToG would still have very different story structures, but the change in POV will sidestep multiple storytelling issues. If we focus on someone who Isn't supportive of Baam, for example, Baam's ascension could be viewed as a challenge/obstacle from that person's POV (I don't get the impression that the author plans to have a protagonist for whom Baam is the villain, but who knows, it's just a possibility).

[BehindTheLighT]

Season 2 was built on external forces and ignoring that Baam is supposed to be essentially immune to Shinsoo.

 

The whole season 1 happened because of external forces, you know?

 

and Baam's shinsoo resistance wasn't ignored. He thanked a huge ass shinsoo attack from Reflejo with little problems

 

Not sure about the problems that you seem to see

 Wangnan is supposed to be the main protagonist of Season 2 (though it really doesn't seem so).

 

he was the protagonist of the first episode, the return of the prince

[Marim]

*casts hoti asavins on marim*

 

 

There is a pretty interesting anime series called c-control , available on youtube funimation channel.

It is rated tv-14 but it shows how real battles are fought with banks and currency, more worthwhile in my opinion than GoT.

 

Thanks for Hoti Asvins~

 

I think I've heard of that anime you mean the one where people fight with credit cards? but haven't watched it though, I might take a look at it in the near future

 

As for GOT, maybe I don't like it because I've watched/read various manga/animes.... but still, in my opinion it has nothing new or refreshing, except detailed violence scenes and characters openly talking about importance of sexual relationships   (not that I think that the last one I mentioned is refreshing or something )

 

-

 

Kubera's story development might seem slow, but story isn't rushed thanks to it and actually lets us take a look at details which become very important for the plot later on.

 

TOG too, has details as one of important factors for to guess what will happen next. It's developing slowly, but plot twist at the end of arcs are good. As SIU said story will speed up.... am looking forward too it.

[Mizura]

I've recently started reading then caught up on Pandora Hearts.

From the reviews and descriptions I got, it seemed like the closest to having Kubera's structure, so I was really curious about it. And it really did turn out to be the closest in structure to Kubera I've seen so far:

• Multiple protagonists playing important roles
• More generally just about all named characters play unique roles in the plot, with many different sides for whom it's unclear who's allied with whom
• Mystery structure focusing on revealing the complex relationships between the characters (and not just introducing shiny new temporary ones all the time like most Shounen series)
• Gradual past revelations (which played a big role)
• Limited POV
• Many smaller clues
• etc.

Great series. Highly recommended. The first dozen or so chapters feel rather messy and hard to get into, and the character behaviors feel really weird and forced at first, but they start to act more naturally (or maybe you just get used to it) later on, and you eventually understand the reasons behind their behaviors.

There are many characters throughout the series, so I recommend making a character chart on the side as you read through it. If you don't want to, I'm cleaning up mine, but it will have spoilers (not that significant though, since the lines and arrows fail to show the complexity of what's going on).

The main difference between Pandora Heart's story structure and Kubera's is that Kubera rubs in the contradictory information into your face from the start (like who God Kubera is siding with and whatnot). Pandora Heart reveals just enough to lead you into thinking: 'well, it hasn't been revealed it, but it's obvious that the plot is X', but then it throws you a plot twist you didn't see coming. So, you're surprised when you see it, but you don't get headaches as with Kubera in the meantime.

Overall Pandora Hearts is written in a much more 'intense' way than Kubera, which takes its time to build things up. Unlike Kubera, where the characters aren't really trying to solve a mystery, and are just doing their own thing (leaving the reader to do the detective work), the Pandora Hearts characters are in a mad rush to discover the truth, and there's more of a sense of immediate danger to it (though, like Kubera, it kills important characters pretty slowly, most deaths are in the past, etc. That's not to say there aren't any though).

Kubera and Pandora Hearts are at different points in their storyline. Pandora Hearts seems to be heading into its final phase, while Kubera is still building up, so some things aren't immediately comparable (Kubera hasn't gone into the 'big reveal' phases for example). But anyway, great series, so if you like Kubera, check it out too. Worth re-reading as well to see what you've missed.

[themantarays]

To play the devil's advocate, I'd like to point out that the characters in Pandora Hearts are not nearly as compelling as Kubera's; you could probably call them stereotypes.

[Mizura]

I quite agree with that, for that reason, Kubera's still my favorite. But Pandora Hearts' plot structure is the closest to Kubera's I've seen so far, and the plot is quite interesting to read. Since it's so hard to find something like Kubera, it's worth checking out if you like Kubera.

 

Edit: And as noted below, it has messed-up characters. Like Kubera. xD

(different flavors but still)

Edited by Mizura, 17 April 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Snow Flower]

Not to mention that some characters in Pandora hearts are quite messed up to say the least.

[Akedeia]

Well, first, i would like to apologize for my errors - English is not my native language and I think the last time I wrote something in english was several years ago... In high school. Just so you now.

Secondly: Hi! I'm new to Batoto forum, but I love your analysis and posts about Kubera (especially Mizura's essays ) and I wanted to add some things in these particular thread.

There are some little bit similiar series to Kubera which I enjoy:

1. Shoujo manga Bokura no kiseki has some similiarities; maybe it not has complexity and depth of Kubera, but it has also mystery, in which past (to be accurate, past incarnations) plays big role, MC is kind of interesting, the side characters are decent enough and story has some minor puzzles; tbh i don't remember, if it is puzzle-that-can-be-solved, but is definitly worth a try.

2. Dan Simmons novel Hyperion (first part of dylogy) is great science fiction mystery (although it has some sort of high fantasy climate) - the story is complicated (not a narration, but an understanding the story itself), in first part there are several mcs, every character has a uniqe storyline, which makes up a whole mystery of planet Hyperion and actual political situation. Author also skilfully plays with western cultures conventions. The main minus for me is small amount of female characters.

3. Patrick Rothfuss in The Name of the Wind (novel, first part of trilogy) is doing a good use of story within a story idea; it basically shows past and propability of tragic future and has well-build fantasy world (the rules of using magic are carefully tought out and featured); but it has less focus on side characters (the story is told from mc POV, so...) but it doesn't mean that they are not interesting.

4. And if someone likes watching tv series, there is also Orphan Black (it has 2 seasons now and is ongoing) - thriller with s-f elements. The best part of it is excellent female characters (played only by Tatiana Maslany, so it is something like one-(wo)man-show?), lots of suspense, quite interesting puzzles and a little bit of speculative science (I think?). It reminds me of Kubera from that "female side". Really, just watch it.

 

And you, good people, keep up doing good work with describing Kubera's world - it's kind of inspirational for me xD.

[Nualie]

About Pandora Hearts, which I've read, if there is something pretty interesting about it, it's that none of the characters are what they seem to be. Jun Mochizuki is a master in making a plot completely twisted, I think. And if you're lazy, check out Crimson Shell, her first manga (It's a short one-shot). It's quite a good example about her twisted plots despite the cliches.

 

Back on topic, the main difference with Kubera, I think, is that Jun doesn't give much clues. She reveals first and puts a flashback to explain/remind us of strange details that don't seem that weird at first  (like what happened between Leo and Eliot, where we see the Oz and Eliot's conversation from Leo's POV). However, Currigom hints us all the way through to make it even more confusing .

Well, just try reading Crimson Shell, you'll get what I mean. It's like bumping into the solution around a corner, you just don't see it coming.

Edited by Nualie, 04 September 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[Indigo July]

Hey, this thread is really useful in choosing what else to read now that there is a Kubera (and Lessa) shaped hole in my week. Has anyone else got any other suggestions?

[seileene]

Less story related, but to be honest, whenever I look at Yuta second stage and Leez I find myself comparing and contrasting them with Chrono and Rosette from Chrono Crusade, lol. In which physical appearance is a major culprit ;]

 

Old manga, so I'd venture a fair number of people have read or watched the anime adaption (which is completely, shamelessly different), but I'll be dodging a landmine of spoilers, so pale text ahoy!

 

Rosette and Leez don't actually have too much in common aside from pigtails, having a really short life span, and being fully aware of that short life span. The way they live is totally different. Leez seems like she wants to enjoy her life, have friends and make the best of things (or did until season 2's finale). Rosette lives every single day like she's going to die tomorrow, and before that tomorrow comes, she's going to save her brother, no force in heaven or hell can stop her, and the entire reason her life is short in the first place is because she's actively burning her time to achieve her goals.

 

Chrono and second stage Yuta, on the other hand... I shall make a serious case for being basically the same character, repackaged into a different plot. XD They both look ten to thirteen-ish, but are much older than their human companions. Smitten, but unable to act on it. They're both very sweet and shy pacifists with a crazy violent, possessive side. The crux of their character development is learning self-control when a lack thereof is built into their racial biology. Chrono because his entire race is in this hive-mind where the queen can override their will or make lose control (not dissimilar to emotional resonance and the sura hierarchy). His brother is a major antagonist who screws over Rosette's/Leez's family for a very misled greater good, which is a complicated mess of internal strife.

 

They're both sentient chimeric monsters. Chrono was demonized inside his mother's womb as she died as her original race and became the demon queen (hello, Taraka). This also makes him and his brother potential masters of their domain and race. (Parallels Maruna and Yuta's roles as suspiciously connected to kingship and being rakshasa.)

 

A third stage Yuta comparison: Chrono and Rosette have excellent chemistry together, but his side of the bargain is actually very destructive. He's literally killing her, knows it, and hates himself for it.

 

Edit: oops. Missed a spoiler x) Also, more points thought of, and it makes more sense to keep this particular case to a single post~

Severe psychological damage from causing the death of a girl considered a dear friend. This event causes a regression in age.

 

Knows more about what's really going on than anybody. But won't talk about it.

 

Greatly values family ties, is oddly sympathetic towards humans, and is apathetic towards other demons/sura lower on the totem pole.

Edited by seileene, 31 January 2017 - 03:46 PM.

[microlm]

Actually when I first read about the whole god/summoner deal I immediately thought of Chrono/Rosette, although Chrono does seem much closer to Yuta.

 

On topic, I can't really think of much that's similar to Kubera. Helck maybe? It's got that somewhat funny veneer that hides a rather complicated plot. Lots of small hints dropped early on that don't come into fruition until later. Interesting world building with humans and demons. In a lot of ways it reminds me of Kubera mashed together with Berserk.

[seileene]

 

Actually when I first read about the whole god/summoner deal I immediately thought of Chrono/Rosette

Astral energy and vigor do parallel pretty well, now that you point it out XD But yeah, summoner and contract conditions do function pretty similarly...

 

... And after reading this I totally took a few to cook up ways to get Chrono summoned to Wilrarv >_> Crossover plots. Chrono's skillkit is very loosely Visnu-y (time and existential) without the resurrection, which could be interesting in an immediate post Calamity setting... But I digress =P

 

 

Helck maybe? It's got that somewhat funny veneer that hides a rather complicated plot. Lots of small hints dropped early on that don't come into fruition until later. Interesting world building with humans and demons. In a lot of ways it reminds me of Kubera mashed together with Berserk.

Story pacing is totally different with Helck being very, very fast paced and Kubera being very, very slow build. But the world building does ring a few bells. The rifts between races, the use of barriers (although in Helck, the demons are the ones using barriers because their territory is extremely toxic, like the sura-realm), a large cast with a lot of significant events in their history, and as mentioned, a twisty plot lurking beneath the humor. And an unattractive main chara, lol. There is no beauty filter in Heclk, though

 

Demons in Helck kind of have a bit of parallel in that they all call themselves demons, but there really doesn't seem to be any one demon race (much like sura are all sura, but under that sura umbrella we have garuda, asura, etc). They occupy the same realm and exist for the same purpose. Although, I get the impression that to most Helck-verse humans, "demon" really means anything that isn't human, because limited knowledge and rifts between their peoples. Power-wise, the average Helck-verse human army stands zero chance against the average demon army, much like the average Kubera-verse human army generally loses to the average sura army (until plot happens, at least). But then there're heroes who pop up able to compete and then some (behold, Cless and Rao).

 

So... yes but no? Lol. It is kind of a fun comparison at least

[Paraph]

Wowzers this thread. I just want to leave an appreciative bump and say I really haven't seen mangaka narrated the way curry does it. I mean, not to make generalizations but it's so thorough. Compared to the tropes I usually see in Western and even Japanese things. Korean manwha or what have you, seems to be very psychological overall. Curry particularly does not seem to cater to any character.

SnK too, though I can't seem to stay with the plot. I would however watch the show.

I am not Korean in any way and haven't dived too deep into this so it's fairly foreign to me, I wish I had more access. & I just wonder where this stems from. The art scene in k is something (but so is elsewhere).

On another note.
Does curry ever get into why she's making this narrative? Jeez. All the stuff I wish to know. & What is it really like for a Mangaka in Korea? What's her inspo? Or their inspo?

I know some of you have been involved in getting the kubera translations going. I really need to get involved somehow myself.

/////
OK I don't want to be an arse but, I'm going through the forums seeing Game of thrones and other anime and manga, or narrative mentioned.

GoT is about morals but hm.
It really differs from Kubera. In values.
It uses usual gender, society, & politics, but more importantly with the fantastic element to tie it & address it.

Kubera. Is pretty moderate in a way-, it keeps itself paced. It's like a psychological twist with motives, intents emerging, tho kubera addresses society / world, almost like an inevitable grieving. Sort of. I mean it is very Korean in a way.

I wonder why I keep coming back to Kubera &, I think, is because I want to see how Curry will try to answer all the issues she is bringing up, which I observe as psych-social-world issues. Partially or all motivated by ppl. ?

It's the nitty gritty of different narratives that really stretch me brains. & How the reader ties into it.

Time to bring in my little pony and other wierdness just to lighten this up. But tbh, is it ever really light?

Edited by Paraph, 14 February 2017 - 06:45 AM.

[falk182]

I love Kubera for all the reasons people talked about above.

 

ToG is great, but (1) I had trouble liking the secondary characters (such as caring about Miseng's or Goseng's backstories, for example) beyond their general proximity to the main character. The story depends on power creep to the extent that your emotional investment in a character depends to an extent on whether you know they can stick around the main character until the end. Conversely, you know that a character that SIU has invested a lot of time in is GOING to grow in power with Baam until the end, because influencing the plot depends to a large extent on having power. (2) SIU's unwillingness to kill people off. Not that he's hasn't done it at all, but in Kubera I literally have no idea - besides Leez - who is going to survive till the end...and she might of course die at that point. Whereas in ToG you KNOW that Rachel is not only going to be there until the end, but also that she is going to gain the ability to stay competitive until the end which means her own set of powerups (hello freaky protector sprite). Same goes for the rest of the team - even if there's a small amount of team attrition, you KNOW that most of the team will survive...purely because they're on the main character's team. It's part of what makes ToG a much lighter read despite being in a similarly crapsack world.

 

Also in Kubera, the emotions just make more sense to me. It's the difference between "bad childhood experience ---> ax murderer" in ToG and "bad childhood experience ---> trauma + subtly influencing adult decisions" in Kubera.

 

Finally, I just love what Currygom has done with her "no villains, only victims" approach. It's solved the problem of having antagonists without resorting to ax-murderer justifications (okay, Asha just sucks. But Currygom's put in the time to flesh her out.) She's done it largely by creating a world that is completely out of balance. In an ordered world - imagine, say, a fantasy school setting with a largely static outside world like Harry Potter - the heroes fight against villains who want to destroy the world as we know it. Defeating them returns everything to its steady state. But in Kubera, by the time of the first chapter the world has deteriorated until there is no "steady state" for a large amount of the characters. Survival or species survival is a strong motivation for a lot of characters. Revenge is another, and it's rarely "I hate the world" but "I hate this or that specific person"...even if, of course, killing that specific person happens to screw over a lot of other people. If there's one thing we know it's that the balance is tipping, the world is literally ending, people are going to die, and it's more a matter of who's left to pick up the pieces at the end, what those pieces are going to look like, and just how much in pieces the people left alive are going to feel. ToG does have some of that, but it's perhaps a bit obscured the process of power creep, and by the Tower's inexplicable attachment to games...