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Latest Chapter Discussion - (Too many spoilers on main page)


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#1
Comadrin

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I thought that with the number of posts on the main page, that this manga could use a topic like this.  

 

After chapter 72, I am liking Itou less and less.  It seems like he has convinced himself that he is acting maturely, but I don't buy it.  As the one in a position of power in an inappropriate relationship, he has, if he was or is really serious about his relationship with Hibiki, an extremely heavy responsibility: namely as her support to keep her safe.  As of the last two chapters, he has pretty much dumped this responsibility.  Hibiki is in a very vulnerable position now, and he is the one who has put her into it.  She has been almost pushed into intimacy with a guy her age, who refuses to accept the word "no" and is basically now stalking her when she's at her most emotionally vulnerable time.  Even if she manages to escape from his clutches (and he's not looking very admirable at all), she has the potential to self destruct.  Sensei also chose some piss-poor timing (right before exams) to put her in this state.  Even if he is right to have them not act like boyfriend/girlfriend, he has taken away the support structure away from her, and made it nearly impossible for her to contact him for advice or help.  She can't go to her parents or any other adults for help in view of their illicit relationship, and her friends certainly aren't much help at the moment.  Whatever deep emotion he had to allow this relationship, his actions now make him pretty close to being a cad.


Edited by Comadrin, 02 September 2013 - 07:45 PM.


#2
laffinlapin

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Sums up the frustrating thing about this whole past couple of volumes.  Each chapter that comes out, I think, "Itou get it together!" And then he screws it up more, the dope.  It'd be nice if Nakajima could repay HIbiki's concern and kindness by straightening Itou out.  Right now, my biggest concern with this series is that won't address the isssues raised above at all; that it'll all get handwaved away as the next volume starts.



#3
Purple Library Guy

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Welll, I'm not happy with the situation, but Comadrin I think you're overreacting here.  Testament to how emotionally involving this manga is.  As to the kid . . . He's into Hibiki and normally anyone in love always thinks they'll be better for the person they want than whoever that person might currently be with.  So he's going for her.  Nothing really wrong with that.  And I mean, from his perspective, she's with an old man in an illicit relationship that puts a lot of stress on her; he's rescuing her.  And he's doing it without trying to blackmail anybody, which puts him head and shoulders above most third wheels in these sensei-student things.  I don't actually like him, he's too damn smooth for my taste and I'm not clear how much he actually cares about Hibiki or what he sees in her, but I can't say I think he's exactly done anything wrong.

Now sensei on the other hand . . . he is suffering from a failure of nerve, a crisis of confidence.  He knows the same things his competition does:  He's older, maybe too old, and because of the teacher thing just being in a relationship with him is hard on Hibiki.  Might she be better off without him?  And then along comes this odd case, a guy Hibiki's age who is somewhat like a younger model of him . . . mature interests and outlook, interests and hobbies in common with Hibiki.  It's understandable that he might have the thought that she'd be better off with the latest model year rather than the version with too many miles on him.  But he let it prey on him too much . . . aided somewhat by that smooth young man, who is to some extent actually playing him, poking his weakness oh so politely.  Kind of odd to see the teen manipulating an intelligent adult, but if you have the right handle . . .   Self-doubt is easy, and while on the other hand he should be trusting Hibiki and her feelings . . . other aspects of his role tell him that no, he shouldn't, that she's just a kid. 

Now he doesn't actually want to lose her.  Not at all.  But he's got himself convinced that that's selfish of him.  But if he's trying to do what's for her own good, what she would "really" want now that she has better choices available, then the unfolding logic of this line of thinking points to the notion that it would be best if she could be in a situation to realize that herself; the "ideal" is if she's given the choice, and chooses what's "best" for her; then he hasn't hurt her and can send her off to a more normal relationship and blah blah . . .

It's a bunch of nonsense, but I can see how, once the doubt begins to gnaw, and once you start down the chain of reasoning, you can end up with a notion of "what's best for her" that gets farther and farther from your actual experience together, and from what she really needs and wants.  One problem of course is that love is not a bunch of checkboxes on a list of qualifications.  But if you fall into the trap of thinking that "mature" means "logical", you can end up trying to make yourself apply Vulcan thinking to emotions and fucking everything up.

But I don't consider him a cad, at all.  He's trying to do what's best for her; a crisis of confidence and a failure to respect her own autonomy has pulled his ideas far afield from what actually is good for her, but that's fear and foolishness, not bad intentions or even, in an odd way, a lack of courage.  For that matter, this basic pattern comes up quite a bit in romance manga even without age differences or responsibility issues.  The girl or guy thinks "I'm not goodlooking enough for him/her, not smart enough, not cool enough, people don't think we look like a couple, so and so fits better/looks better with him, I should give him up for his own good" and is generally brought up short with "Hey, let me decide who I love and what I want, you fool!"

Although another kind of fear may be involved as well--my wife, who is older than I, used to occasionally get into dark moods where she felt like she should drop me because she felt I would inevitably leave her due to her age and rather than be left desolate she would be better off doing the leaving; we would have huge arguments . . . over time she has gotten more sure of me and it doesn't really happen any more.  But it gives me a certain perspective on Itou's position.

 

Which brings us to chapter 75, where, she having failed to choose what's "better" for her with a free choice, the inevitable end point of the chain is reached where Itou, with a push from the kid, takes away the other choice by dumping her "for her own good".  I started to see this coming as far back as ch. 66.  It's almost a relief that we're finally at the crisis point.  Now she can tell him off major league, and her friends may well also jump down his throat; I hope it resolves quickly.

Notice that he had quite a bit of difficulty doing it, especially considering his normally pretty calm personality.


Edited by Purple Library Guy, 20 October 2013 - 09:09 AM.


#4
Comadrin

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Welll, I'm not happy with the situation, but Comadrin I think you're overreacting here.  

Now sensei on the other hand . . . he is suffering from a failure of nerve, a crisis of confidence.  He knows the same things his competition does:  He's older, maybe too old, and because of the teacher thing just being in a relationship with him is hard on Hibiki.  Might she be better off without him?  And then along comes this odd case, a guy Hibiki's age who is somewhat like a younger model of him . . . mature interests and outlook, interests and hobbies in common with Hibiki.  It's understandable that he might have the thought that she'd be better off with the latest model year rather than the version with too many miles on him.  But he let it prey on him too much . . . aided somewhat by that smooth young man, who is to some extent actually playing him, poking his weakness oh so politely.  Kind of odd to see the teen manipulating an intelligent adult, but if you have the right handle . . .   Self-doubt is easy, and while on the other hand he should be trusting Hibiki and her feelings . . . other aspects of his role tell him that no, he shouldn't, that she's just a kid. 

Now he doesn't actually want to lose her.  Not at all.  But he's got himself convinced that that's selfish of him.  But if he's trying to do what's for her own good, what she would "really" want now that she has better choices available, then the unfolding logic of this line of thinking points to the notion that it would be best if she could be in a situation to realize that herself; the "ideal" is if she's given the choice, and chooses what's "best" for her; then he hasn't hurt her and can send her off to a more normal relationship and blah blah . . .

It's a bunch of nonsense, but I can see how, once the doubt begins to gnaw, and once you start down the chain of reasoning, you can end up with a notion of "what's best for her" that gets farther and farther from your actual experience together, and from what she really needs and wants.  One problem of course is that love is not a bunch of checkboxes on a list of qualifications.  But if you fall into the trap of thinking that "mature" means "logical", you can end up trying to make yourself apply Vulcan thinking to emotions and fucking everything up.

But I don't consider him a cad, at all.  He's trying to do what's best for her; a crisis of confidence and a failure to respect her own autonomy has pulled his ideas far afield from what actually is good for her, but that's fear and foolishness, not bad intentions or even, in an odd way, a lack of courage.  For that matter, this basic pattern comes up quite a bit in romance manga even without age differences or responsibility issues.  The girl or guy thinks "I'm not goodlooking enough for him/her, not smart enough, not cool enough, people don't think we look like a couple, so and so fits better/looks better with him, I should give him up for his own good" and is generally brought up short with "Hey, let me decide who I love and what I want, you fool!"

Although another kind of fear may be involved as well--my wife, who is older than I, used to occasionally get into dark moods where she felt like she should drop me because she felt I would inevitably leave her due to her age and rather than be left desolate she would be better off doing the leaving; we would have huge arguments . . . over time she has gotten more sure of me and it doesn't really happen any more.  But it gives me a certain perspective on Itou's position.

 

Which brings us to chapter 75, where, she having failed to choose what's "better" for her with a free choice, the inevitable end point of the chain is reached where Itou, with a push from the kid, takes away the other choice by dumping her "for her own good".  I started to see this coming as far back as ch. 66.  It's almost a relief that we're finally at the crisis point.  Now she can tell him off major league, and her friends may well also jump down his throat; I hope it resolves quickly.

Notice that he had quite a bit of difficulty doing it, especially considering his normally pretty calm personality.

 

I pulled a sentence or two out, then decided I should let the rest stay up there in the quote, so I could refer to it easily.  

 

    1. Younger model is like him, yet his decision is "Aided somewhat by that smooth young man, who is to some extent actually playing him, yet poking his weaknesses oh so politely."  Damn, the great mature Sensei is being played for a fool by a young man who plays him like Nodame plays a Bosendorfer or a Steinway.  Meanwhile, Hibiki is stuck in limbo.  Sensei is acting like the great mature Sensei (basically dumping her like an outgrown stuffed toy) and she has no one to turn to.  

 

    2.  Chain of reasoning is one thing, but having allowed her to have a relationship with him, "Sensei" has a duty to her, whether he breaks up with her or not, to prevent fallout of any kind from happening to her.  Cutting her off, with no recourse to talking to him or any other adult (his relationship with her prevented her doing that) is throwing her to the wolves.  As far as I'm concerned, he has either descended to being a cad or a moron, either of which reflects badly on his character.  Sorry, but when an adult in a position of power condescends to have a relationship with a person in an inferior position, there are huge responsibilities the person in a superior position assumes (assuming that he has a modicum of honor), and homeboy ain't assuming them.  As of the last chapter posted, he left her out to dry.  He can claim maturity, logic (vulcan or socratic), Machiavellian expedience, or just plain cowardice, but he left the person who trusted him all alone and out in the cold.  I'm sure that modern educators can find a plethora of philosophic reasons that it is for the best for the victim, but I ain't buying any of them.  Just plain cowardice fits the case as far as I'm concerned. 


Edited by Comadrin, 25 October 2013 - 07:24 AM.


#5
Merodia

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By reading it up to chapter 76... conclude in one sentence : they're thinking too much =))

But still it's interesting to follow them, still hope for the good ending though. I like Itou's personality. Caring in his own way, and how he hold back a lot for Hibiki...