5 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

This comic really has a warped and twisted view of the US. First of all, no way in hell the US would take over its neighbors. What would the motive be? It would just mean more cost/less funds and trouble for politicians. And set so soon in the future, for them to think the US could take over north and south america to the point where resistance no longer even matters in such a short period of time, authors never heard of Iraq?

 

And all the americans killing and raping women and children (well not raping the children anyway, not yet that I have seen) on sight with no exceptions I have seen so far, yet noble japanese saving the woman and not imposing on her, sacrificing himself to save her.  And of course its the americans who send missiles into heavily populated areas and pretend that surrendering was a option when it just means death.

 

Ah give me a break. Even in places like viatnam where cruelty and death, insanity was a daily part of life, it was american generosity that was often used. Children strapped with bombs because soldiers found it difficult to kill children and often reached out to help them.

 

And I guess the author doesn't know about what japan did to china during WW2, and to american hostages.

 

Also doesn't seem to respect reporters much either.

Oh God no.

 

First off, the US didnt "Take over" north and south america, originally, in the game, the US and Canada began negotiations to merge their countries as well as the rest of south america, which eventually lead to the creation of the United states of the new continent(USN). 

 

Secondly, are you kidding me. Even in the vietnam war, i mean, seriously, have you never heard of the My Lai massacres? The rape, torture and murder of women and children?

 

And youre aware that even within the US military, for example, an upwards of about 30% of women who serve in the military are raped by soldiers from their own army, 70% are sexually assaulted, and 90% are sexually harrassed? And thats by the people on their own side. Think of what happens to people who arent.

True, it said "absorb" rather then conquer .  Like Canada would agree to join with the US, like the US would agree to join with Mexico, and that goes for all the other countries down south too.
 
Those statics about what happens to females in the forces seems like a ass pull, give a source.
 

have you never heard of the My Lai massacres? The rape, torture and murder of women and children?

 
Never said it didn't ever happen, but even in such hellish conditions as Vietnam, there were morally inclinded soldiers too. And some that started out decent, but were twisted by that environment.
 
Where as US soldiers in this comic are all smug male bastards (I haven't seen any female soldiers among them for them to attack) who don't hesitate at all and take satisfactions in raping and killing everyone, even reveling in their remains, and this is right off the bat. They portray american soldiers as worse then germane natzie soldiers during WW2

 

Believe it or not, US soldiers are men and women from the US, and people of the US are not all evil bastards, actually a fair amount of them have morales and ethics. And those soldiers have families at home, and concerned citizens too, that partially hold the politicians to caring about the expenditure of american lives and money, and of conduct in wars. I am sure there would be such immense demonstrations against the war would happen if people got wind of stuff like missiles being sent into densely populated towns without even warning (and with US citizens there to boot)  

 

That is the value of war reporters too, they keep the military accountable for their actions. I see how theres only one rather crazy "perverted" like Japanese reporter there with a rather sick guy behind at home supporting him, both seem to be in it more for the guts and thrills, rather then for revealing truth. Nothing showing how such keeps the military accountable, and no war reporters shown on the other side. 

 

Then look at the Japanese soldiers, what war crimes have they been shown to do in the comic aside from alex's? In fact, many seem to be very heroic self sacrificing types. So it's a wonder the higher ups even worry about that reporter.

 

Honestly, if you can't see how one sided the ethics shown here are, you haven't paid any attention to what you are reading.

Edited by truepurple, 10 August 2013 - 10:09 PM.

[Aizen-sensei]

True, it said "absorb" rather then conquer .  Like Canada would agree to join with the US, like the US would agree to join with Mexico, and that goes for all the other countries down south too.
 
Those statics about what happens to females in the forces seems like a ass pull, give a source.

In this storyline? Yes.

 

I mean, when the Video Game, Homefront, first came out, people were saying how it was stupidly absurd and impossible for North Korea, even if it did conquer south korea first, to EVER be able to invade and win against a war with China.

 

And, of course, everyone was saying "Dude, this is a game, this is the storyline."

 

I mean, if youre going to point out all the unrealistic inconsistencies within the story, id go for the obvious one, i.e. Wanzers, which no military research department in their right mind would ever think to produce, since bipedal movement is absurd to begin with. But yeah, this is the story. 

 

And here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8005198.stm

 

 
Never said it didn't ever happen, but even in such hellish conditions as Vietnam, there were morally inclinded soldiers too. And some that started out decent, but were twisted by that environment.
 
Where as US soldiers in this comic are all smug male bastards (I haven't seen any female soldiers among them for them to attack) who don't hesitate at all and take satisfactions in raping and killing everyone, even reveling in their remains, and this is right off the bat. They portray american soldiers as worse then germane natzie soldiers during WW2

 

Sure. And what, you dont think that the conditions in the war depicted in this manga, are any less traumatizing to the soldiers, that they dont experience the same psychological effects of putting your life on the line and knowing that anyone can easily die in a heartbeat? 

 

And have you ever thought that the reason you dont see many female soldiers in the attacks, is the same reason you dont see a single female soldier in the Army Rangers, or in frontline combat. Are you not aware that it was just recently this year that the US army lifted their near-universal ban on women serving on the frontlines and in direct combat, and that before, they didnt allow women to fill such roles? 

 

And by the way, if you look at the 7th page on the first chapter, youll see an O.C.U. wanzer, that is mutlating a body of a pilot, nor are the following pictures necessarily tied to the U.S.N. or the O.C.U.(Except for one where the guy is posing with a dead body. Nice to know, though, that the same thing happened in the Film "Jarhead", which was based off the novel of the experiences of an actual soldier who participated in Operation desert storm)

 

Believe it or not, US soldiers are men and women from the US, and people of the US are not all evil bastards, actually a fair amount of them have morales and ethics. And those soldiers have families at home, and concerned citizens too, that partially hold the politicians to caring about the expenditure of american lives and money, and of conduct in wars. I am sure there would be such immense demonstrations against the war would happen if people got wind of stuff like missiles being sent into densely populated towns without even warning (and with US citizens there to boot)  

 

Cool story, bro. No one is saying that all the US soldiers are evil bastards who dont have families, morals and ethics. But i also understand that the whole point of a war is that your morals and ethics are being strained.

 

And are you kidding me, do you know the amount of civilians killed due to collateral damage from drone strikes, intended to take out key personnel?? There is always a standing order in the military, in that if the target is worth destroying, then there is a certain amount of collateral damage that is acceptable. And if you read the manga, the building that the first missile took out was a military installation, and the second missile hit the parliament building. Its not like they were randomly shooting at the city. 

 

That is the value of war reporters too, they keep the military accountable for their actions. I see how theres only one rather crazy "perverted" like Japanese reporter there with a rather sick guy behind at home supporting him, both seem to be in it more for the guts and thrills, rather then for revealing truth. Nothing showing how such keeps the military accountable, and no war reporters shown on the other side. 

 

Then look at the Japanese soldiers, I haven't seen one do anything clearly immoral yet. In fact, many seem to be very heroic self sacrificing types. So it's a wonder the higher ups even worry about that reporter.

 

Honestly, if you can't see how one sided the ethics shown here are, you haven't paid any attention to what you are reading.

 

 

Yes, and no war reporters on the O.C.U. side, either. Maybe you havent read the latest chapters, but its clear that the O.C.U. military, thats the japanese side, is keeping tabs and suppressing the media and information coverage. Ignoring the fact that this is something that has always been around, and it took brave people to leak this information out, one of whom is currently being prosecuted in the US right now for leaking classified information. None of the stuff that was released by Wikileaks, was covered by the media before they released it.

 

And yeah, i suggest you read on to see a japanese soldier doing something immoral. I mean, the Heros cross arc is specifically about an immoral O.C.U. soldier. And the upcoming arc, also shows some very immoral acts of O.C.U. soldiers. But that is all irrelevant, because the setting takes place where the U.S.N. invade the O.C.U. and not the other way around. Of course youre going to have USN soldiers that are killing the civilians, because there are no USN civilians around for the OCU to kill, since USN invaded OCU, and not the other way around. And yes, this is pre-established in the video games, where you actually play a USN soldier invading Freedom City. 

[truepurple]

 "Dude, this is a game, this is the storyline."

 

If it were as simple as that, then they should have broken away from using anything of real life. This storyline is highly insulting to the US, and over-romanticizes japan. So at least they could have used different names, even if we can guess what they mean. Like Gundam talks about "Orb", a small island country with little military but lots of tech and heart, and dedicated to neutrality, gosh, I wonder what country they could be talking about. Sure, its obvious, but they still changed the name. Especially in a comic like this when they are doing it in such extremes.

 

you dont think that the conditions in the war depicted in this manga, are any less traumatizing to the soldiers

 

As I pointed out, they were depicted as like that from the beginning. Before anyone could retaliate, they were already raping and killing without mercy or giving it a single thought, before even the possibility of war trama setting in.

 

And if you read the manga, the building that the first missile took out was a military installation, and the second missile hit the parliament building.

Could you imagine trying to deploy from a skyscraper? Trying to function as a military inside of one? And what military would be foolish enough to be in such a easy to hit target? No, the first building hit was most likely a civilian building, with a radar on top and people running said radar and working intel, inside on one or two floors. a missile to take out the radar at the top would be more then sufficient.

 

Maybe you havent read the latest chapters, but its clear that the O.C.U. military, thats the japanese side, is keeping tabs and suppressing the media and information coverage.

Maybe you haven't been reading the post you just replied to, but I specifically spoke of that, letting you know that I knew that. And I also mentioned that the way things are set up now in this manga, there isn't any reason for them to suppress media on the Japanese side. USN are so evil, and UCU are so heroic and generally ethical, that it would make much more sense for them to have sent squads of reporters to cover every inch of the war. Where as the USN might do the same, considering how proud they seem to be of being evil.

 

being prosecuted in the US right now for leaking classified information. None of the stuff that was released by Wikileaks, was covered by the media before they released it.

 

Finding out first hand what deeds the military is doing in a war, and leaking counter intelligence data that you are meant to manage, are two very different things. I am not saying he should be charged for a crime either, just saying that they are very different.

 

 the Heros cross arc is specifically about an immoral O.C.U. soldier.

 

Again, its almost like you didn't completely read the post you replied to. I specifically mentioned that. Anyway, it was one person, and its not like he proceeded to commit war crimes, it was a personal murder by a obvious villain. But even then, in combat, he did earn all those credits and promotions himself, he did handle himself well in combat, and wasn't shown killing or raping a single OCU civilian or anything.

 

Glancing through the newer chapters even though I wasn't planning on reading further, to respond to what you said. I see, so someone in the OCU kills 200 civilians for unknown reasons. It was covered up, which means the OCU authorities felt it was something to be ashamed of.  Also they say this group are all a bunch of drop outs and bottom feeders, in other words, the extreme exceptions, not the rule, I mean if they do something evil, which I doubt.

 

USN rapes and kills openly in huge quantity as though they were all evil and rotten to the core, no redeeming quality in a single person in their military at all. As I compared before, natzis during WW2 is about the only army I could think of approaching the level of evil that USN is shown as. 

 

Again, if your going to portray a nation as that evil, at least give em a fictional name.  Anyway, the story would be more interesting if it weren't so black and white, even with fictional names and even nations,  it makes the characters, even a whole society consisting of two large continents, so 2 dimensional, the way USN is shown here.

Edited by truepurple, 14 August 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[MangoPDK]

truepurple, I have to ask, are you familiar with the Front Mission universe outside of this work? Because a lot of your gripes were established outside of this work 20 years ago, and don't really jive to a fan of the series like me. For instance, I appreciate the realism the series maintains by creating a distantly-plausible future using real-world countries. I also don't find the unions of countries to be farfetched--one of the supercountries in this series exists now in the form of the European Union.

 

I was gonna type up a point-by-point response but honestly, what I get from your comments is that you feel the manga portrays Americans in a poor light. Maybe it does, I don't think so (I don't even think of the white guys in this series as American--they could be Canadian, Mexican, light-skinned South Americans), but it's a manga telling the behind-the-scenes war stories. Would you expect the mangaka to depict what it's like for Americans, when he probably has no experience of what that might be like and wouldn't even be able to imagine it due to cultural differences? But then, the OCU also includes Australia, should we get that side too? The USN includes Canada, Mexico, and all of South America, what about those perspectives?

 

And this series, black and white? You must be reading a different manga than me--this series, to me, is about the grey area that exists in war. Both sides committing war crimes, entire nations behaving two-faced and hypocritical, no clear justification for commencement of hostilities, the business of profiting off war in ways other than just selling weapons; there's a ton of stuff here that's not black and white.

[truepurple]

 Both sides committing war crimes, entire nations behaving two-faced and hypocritical

Not how it has been shown in this work.

And aside from deeply insulting a whole nation, or a collection of nations, with comic material by associating them with a apparently very evil empire. it makes for a very boring two dimensional world, well at least you know who to root for, [sarcasm]yah![/sarcasm]

 

truepurple, I have to ask, are you familiar with the Front Mission universe outside of this work?

No, and if its this poorly done, I wouldn't want to. They should have taking liberties with the source material like they normally do, if it was this bad.

Some resistance/hesitation, or debate, or odd USN soldier against the rape and mass slaughter of civilians. Or some brave USN reporter working to expose it to the folks at home, or something. Something to say, these guys are human too, not just devils that welled up from hell itself.

 

Well there was those old folks at the airport at the beginning, 2 civilians that you never see again (and might have been killed by the USN attack for all we know) hardly constitute what I am talking about.

 

Likewise the OCU side could be shown to be a little less shining too. It's not depicted as perfect, but too well for reason in such a supposed soul twisting environment.

Edited by truepurple, 14 August 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[LTalon]

You can also easily go elsewhere in the Front Mission franchise for the other supernations being horrible people.  Front Mission 3's plot is basically all about the OCU doing a variety of morally questionable things.  Not to say the USN is squeaky clean there either, but they come off a bit better in that one.