23 replies to this topic

[storyeater]

Okay,hear me out on that one.Logia are generally accepted to be the strongest,followed by Zoan and then Paramecia.However,once someone learns to use Haki,the power of the average Logia becomes obsolete compared to the power of the average paramecia (we are not talking about downright broken powers,like Kizaru's or Enel's,but about the average Logia like Caribou's ,or Crocodile's(yes,he was and still is strong,but do not forget he is not still developing devil fruits ,he claims he has mastered his to perfection,by contrast with Luffy's still-developing abilities).Besides,even Kizaru's devil fruit is about equal with another powerful devil fruit,Kuma's.Most Zoan's,even ancient andeven mythical ones,give you just a brute power boost and some abilities that are a best (mythical) on par with paramecia or Logia.And,again,if we compare powerful fruits,it does not matter how good at healing Marco is,he still cannot be on par with an earthquake .My theory is that most Logia's and Zoan give you a quick power boost,which most men use thinking they are powerful (Crocodile,Enel and Lucci are the exceptions,not the rule.)By contrast,most Paramecia give you a seemingly weak ability,which cannot really be used unless you are powerful,persistent and creative.Kuma's fruit is not more powerful than Wapol's nigh-broken fruit (it created a new type of steel for God's sake,and this barely touches the surface of its capabilities)it is just that,unlike Kuma,Wapol do not know how to use his (and he is a much worse warrior,meaning he can quickly be taken out in battle,before he starts using really advanced things).So,on average,when someone is really powerful,he is better off with an average Paramecia,which he will master,than with an average (non-broken,Blackbeard anyone?)Logia or Zoan,and better off with a powerful Paramecia than a powerful Zoan or Logia,the average person is just too weak to see that,and he just wants the power boost,thats why he label's Logia and Zoan. Your thoughts?

[Rand_alThor]

An interesting question, but knowing the way Oda shapes his world I don't think it's that cut and dry. I think at the lower levels of skill, Logia and some Zoan rank as more powerful than Paramecia fruit users because, as you said, they get a "power boost". Based on that, it was initially somewhat surprising to see so many powerful Paramecia users in the upper echelons of fighters until I realized that they had had to work at making their powers useful. I think the main difference is that people like Crocodile haven't been trying to improve since they were able to rise so high based on so little effort whereas Luffy, for example, had to train for years before he could do anything useful with his powers. Thus a Paramecia user will usually continue working to get better while a powerful Logia user may just coast on that initial power boost.

You can think of it like people who were always attractive versus people who bloomed into attractiveness later in life. Always choose the late bloomer because their years of not being the most attractive person will have caused them to develop a personality and made them interesting, while those who have always been attractive rarely have anything deeper than their skin.

However you can't just rule out Logia or even Zoan users as being yet even more powerful than Luffy or other Paramecia users because this is Oda's world. And in his world there seem to be at least two constants: 1. There is no limit to what one can do and 2. Effort and passion are the keys to power. Thus anyone, with or without any type of devils fruit can be as powerful as anyone else dependant only on how much effort and passion they have put into improving their power.

[101010]

OP, you are not correct. Haki can also help a Logia user neutralize another's Haki attack. Hopefully it makes more sense with this image:

Spoiler

Here Kuzan is being stabbed with WB's (Yonkou level) Haki imbued weapon and he is still intangible. So basically strong Logias are not really that much affected by Haki. Basically battles are much more decided on the "will" of the participants rather then their Devil Fruits.

Besides, it is canon that Logias are actually the rarest and the most powerful DFs. You cannot argue with that.

Also, I wanted to mention that Zoan's are not as weak as you think - Marco is practically invincible unless his powers are diminished by a Seastone. Sengoku and Xdrake are really powerful as well.

[Coma Culture]

OP, you are not correct. Haki can also help a Logia user neutralize another's Haki attack. Hopefully it makes more sense with this image:

Spoiler

Here Kuzan is being stabbed with WB's (Yonkou level) Haki imbued weapon and he is still intangible. So basically strong Logias are not really that much affected by Haki. Basically battles are much more decided on the "will" of the participants rather then their Devil Fruits.

Besides, it is canon that Logias are actually the rarest and the most powerful DFs. You cannot argue with that.

Also, I wanted to mention that Zoan's are not as weak as you think - Marco is practically invincible unless his powers are diminished by a Seastone. Sengoku and Xdrake are really powerful as well.

I actually have to disagree with you on this. First off, i am not entirely educated in One Piece lore. Its a series i read the first 300 and the last 100 chpters of, and explored the lore through the wiki. So i could be very, very wrong. But here goes.

Logias are not the most rare Devil Fruits. As stated by Marco and the character who has the Daibutsu DF, Mythical level Zoan fruits are the rarest in the world. For further proof, check the wiki entry for both Zoan and Logia, both make mention in the introductory paragraph about the rarity of Mythical level Zoan fruits.

Second, Although Logia powers are incredible, and have been since their introduction, the level at which they increase their power is stuck. Imagine it like playing Final Fantasy X and when you start the game, you find your Tidus, the main character, is level 50. But now this character recieves 1/4 of the experience they would normally get. Yes, for a large portion of the time you will absolutely one-hit kill, and dominate entire areas with this strength. But eventually, you will reach an area where the enemies are near your level. Soon, you'll grow more slowly as your enemies continue to rise in power. Eventually, you'll be totally outclassed. Someone who played the game normally, by about 60 percent through the game, will regularly kick your ass because not only did they grow at a normal rate, they couldn't one hit kill anybody on their journey. They had to use different tactics, use different methods, find what works, find what doesnt and experience all they can.

There are only two mythical Zoan users. One is now the leader of the WB pirates and is one of the few people to have fought all three admirals and survived. Also, when the Gorosei talked about bringing down Teach, he was mentioned independent of his crew - meaning he might be able to take down Teach by himself. Considering Teach has his captains fruit powers (but not his mastery of the powers.) thats pretty impressive.

Lastly, quite a few of the strongest characters are Paramecia users. Luffy, of course. Eustass Kidd. Law. in fact, i think most of the Eleven Supernovas are mostly Paramecia and low-level Zoan users, with the exception of Zoro and Killer Uroge. Whitebeard was even a Paramecia user. To put it simply, out of the 4 Pirates with the biggest bounties in the world to this point, Three were Paramecias.

Paramecias start off like a joke. Unskilled, full of weakness. But the ability and range in which one can grow their powers are far greater than a non-Mythical Zoan or even a Logia. With Law completely destroying Smoker, a powerful Logia, and Vergo, a Haki user, i think its been shown how Paramecias start off weak, but if the will of the fighter and the patience to achieve mastery are great enough, Paramecia powers are the ones that can change the world. Hell, Whitebeards was even said to be the only fruit capable of destroying the world. Perhaps because he had will and experience. I know of no other Logias or even Mythical Zoans that could destroy the whole world.

So yes, the potential for Paramecia's far outclasses Zoans and Logias. Now, wether they could surpass Mythical Zoans has yet to be shown.

Edited by Coma Culture, 15 March 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[flowsthead]

I actually have to disagree with you on this. First off, i am not entirely educated in One Piece lore. Its a series i read the first 300 and the last 100 chpters of, and explored the lore through the wiki. So i could be very, very wrong. But here goes.

Logias are not the most rare Devil Fruits. As stated by Marco and the character who has the Daibutsu DF, Mythical level Zoan fruits are the rarest in the world. For further proof, check the wiki entry for both Zoan and Logia, both make mention in the introductory paragraph about the rarity of Mythical level Zoan fruits.

Second, Although Logia powers are incredible, and have been since their introduction, the level at which they increase their power is stuck. Imagine it like playing Final Fantasy X and when you start the game, you find your Tidus, the main character, is level 50. But now this character recieves 1/4 of the experience they would normally get. Yes, for a large portion of the time you will absolutely one-hit kill, and dominate entire areas with this strength. But eventually, you will reach an area where the enemies are near your level. Soon, you'll grow more slowly as your enemies continue to rise in power. Eventually, you'll be totally outclassed. Someone who played the game normally, by about 60 percent through the game, will regularly kick your ass because not only did they grow at a normal rate, they couldn't one hit kill anybody on their journey. They had to use different tactics, use different methods, find what works, find what doesnt and experience all they can.

There are only two mythical Zoan users. One is now the leader of the WB pirates and is one of the few people to have fought all three admirals and survived. Also, when the Gorosei talked about bringing down Teach, he was mentioned independent of his crew - meaning he might be able to take down Teach by himself. Considering Teach has his captains fruit powers (but not his mastery of the powers.) thats pretty impressive.

Lastly, quite a few of the strongest characters are Paramecia users. Luffy, of course. Eustass Kidd. Law. in fact, i think most of the Eleven Supernovas are mostly Paramecia and low-level Zoan users, with the exception of Zoro and Killer Uroge. Whitebeard was even a Paramecia user. To put it simply, out of the 4 Pirates with the biggest bounties in the world to this point, Three were Paramecias.

Paramecias start off like a joke. Unskilled, full of weakness. But the ability and range in which one can grow their powers are far greater than a non-Mythical Zoan or even a Logia. With Law completely destroying Smoker, a powerful Logia, and Vergo, a Haki user, i think its been shown how Paramecias start off weak, but if the will of the fighter and the patience to achieve mastery are great enough, Paramecia powers are the ones that can change the world. Hell, Whitebeards was even said to be the only fruit capable of destroying the world. Perhaps because he had will and experience. I know of no other Logias or even Mythical Zoans that could destroy the whole world.

So yes, the potential for Paramecia's far outclasses Zoans and Logias. Now, wether they could surpass Mythical Zoans has yet to be shown.

All of your examples are true, but they don't lead to the conclusion you are making. It's not that Paramecia's have more potential to be stronger, it's that the people who have those devil fruit abilities are stronger. Of course, the devil fruit is a large part of their strength, but these are people that generally would be strong regardless of having a devil fruit. The best example of this is when Ace is fighting Blackbeard and Auger comments that the average pirate would be too shocked by being punched as a Logia to do anything, but Ace was still fighting and thinking because he is strong. From the evidence we have so far, Roger had no devil fruit and was the strongest pirate in the world. We know for a fact that Rayleigh doesn't have a devil fruit and at an old age he is at the level of an admiral.

There is nothing inherently stronger about paramecia. Logia are always going to be stronger among weaker enemies, and even among strong enemies they have their uses. Being able to change the environment the way Crocodile, Aokiji, and Akainu can is always going to be a benefit. Aokiji can freeze ships and the ocean. He can fight on the sea in ways that no other devil fruit user can. That is a huge boost to his capabilities. Plus, because they can change their shape, Logia users have ways to avoid a haki attack if they stay sharp and vigilant. We know that Doflamingo uses Haki when he uses his strings, and he presumably used it when he cut Crocodile's head off during the Whitebeard war, yet Crocodile was fine. Crocodile would definitely be stronger if he learned Haki, but he doesn't just become weak immediately when other people learn Haki.

To make this point even clearer, when Blackbeard was fighting Whitebeard, he took away Whitebeard's ability and was still pretty near killed by Whitebeard. That's just proof of Whitebeard's strength, not the strength of his ability. Don't confuse the man with the weapon. As Zoro says, it is not the sword that matters but the person wielding the swords. He doesn't have to have amazing swords to cut iron, and a pirate doesn't have to have an amazing devil fruit to be amazing. Luffy is strong even without the rubber.

[101010]

Regarding the Mythical Zoans - I do agree that they are rarer than Logias, but they are not a DF type. They are a subtype of one of the types - Zoan. I would compare it to, let's say, the fiery subtype of Logias like Mera Mera and Magu Magu. But the whole discussion seems a bit meaningless at this point. It all boils down to semantics, which is not my favourite thing to argue about.

Paramecias are certainly interesting and there are many hidden gems amongst them. However I do not agree with your illustration of Logia user's development. There certainly is a plateau at which they are stuck in the beginning (I liked this page), but there is a lot of room for improvement.

Regarding the bounties ranking, it does not represent the actual strength of the individuals. Bounties are not power levels.

A funny fact - Luffy's intentionally made to have a goofy ability, Odachi said he wouldn't like his main character all serious and whatnot.

To further answer OP, the two strongest guys we know actually do not have any DF abilities - Gol D Roger and his first mate Rayleigh. The third strongest is probably Garp back in his prime and he also do not have a DF.

Edited by 101010, 15 March 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[storyeater]

Just a note:Yes,Logias are rarest,which may have contributed to them being called the strongest,but think about it that way:gold is considered valuable because it is rare,yet iron is more useful to us (use-centric approach)and more versalite,and yet a golden statue cannot surpass the beauty of a marble one (training-centric approach),and yet water is far,far more valuable to human life:value-centric approach).But gold has more value in the market than any of these three. Why? Because it is rarest,and so it is thought as superior in the mind of people.

[flowsthead]

Just a note:Yes,Logias are rarest,which may have contributed to them being called the strongest,but think about it that way:gold is considered valuable because it is rare,yet iron is more useful to us (use-centric approach)and more versalite,and yet a golden statue cannot surpass the beauty of a marble one (training-centric approach),and yet water is far,far more valuable to human life:value-centric approach).But gold has more value in the market than any of these three. Why? Because it is rarest,and so it is thought as superior in the mind of people.

It's a nice metaphor, but you haven't applied it to One Piece. Logia's aren't used as just currency, they are used to augment the fighting ability of pirates, just like the other devil fruits. It would be a comparison between steel and iron, instead of gold and iron. Of course (most) Logia are inherently better than the rest of the devil fruits. Without Haki or seastone, you cannot fight Logia users. Even with Haki, you have to be fast / strong enough, as Monet told Tashigi. Luffy still has to avoid sharp things.

I never thought this question would be asked considering Aokiji can walk on water by freezing it. He circumvents the biggest weakness that devil fruit users have, inability to swim, with his devil fruit power. How is that not an incredible boost to his power? Or how the only person that could fight Enel was Luffy in the Skypiea arc, and with mantra Luffy still had a tough time. If Enel hadn't put the gold on Luffy's fist or had destroyed the stalk more quickly, Luffy would probably not have beaten him.

[storyeater]

By the sam

It's a nice metaphor, but you haven't applied it to One Piece. Logia's aren't used as just currency, they are used to augment the fighting ability of pirates, just like the other devil fruits. It would be a comparison between steel and iron, instead of gold and iron. Of course (most) Logia are inherently better than the rest of the devil fruits. Without Haki or seastone, you cannot fight Logia users. Even with Haki, you have to be fast / strong enough, as Monet told Tashigi. Luffy still has to avoid sharp things.

I never thought this question would be asked considering Aokiji can walk on water by freezing it. He circumvents the biggest weakness that devil fruit users have, inability to swim, with his devil fruit power. How is that not an incredible boost to his power? Or how the only person that could fight Enel was Luffy in the Skypiea arc, and with mantra Luffy still had a tough time. If Enel hadn't put the gold on Luffy's fist or had destroyed the stalk more quickly, Luffy would probably not have beaten him.

By the same logic,Brook can walk on water,and he is a paramecia.Kuma can also teleport,and let's not go at what whitebeard could do to combat that weakness,because it would cause so much collateral it would not be worth it.Anyway,my point is that ,in the hands of a master-level fighter,a paramecia is better than a Zoan or a Logia of the same tier (we compare relatively weal paramecia with relatively weak Logia and Zoan,same goes for relatively strong fruits),like an hard-to-use fighter in a fighting game dominates the field in the hands of someone who knows to use him.

All of your examples are true, but they don't lead to the conclusion you are making. It's not that Paramecia's have more potential to be stronger, it's that the people who have those devil fruit abilities are stronger. Of course, the devil fruit is a large part of their strength, but these are people that generally would be strong regardless of having a devil fruit. The best example of this is when Ace is fighting Blackbeard and Auger comments that the average pirate would be too shocked by being punched as a Logia to do anything, but Ace was still fighting and thinking because he is strong. From the evidence we have so far, Roger had no devil fruit and was the strongest pirate in the world. We know for a fact that Rayleigh doesn't have a devil fruit and at an old age he is at the level of an admiral.

There is nothing inherently stronger about paramecia. Logia are always going to be stronger among weaker enemies, and even among strong enemies they have their uses. Being able to change the environment the way Crocodile, Aokiji, and Akainu can is always going to be a benefit. Aokiji can freeze ships and the ocean. He can fight on the sea in ways that no other devil fruit user can. That is a huge boost to his capabilities. Plus, because they can change their shape, Logia users have ways to avoid a haki attack if they stay sharp and vigilant. We know that Doflamingo uses Haki when he uses his strings, and he presumably used it when he cut Crocodile's head off during the Whitebeard war, yet Crocodile was fine. Crocodile would definitely be stronger if he learned Haki, but he doesn't just become weak immediately when other people learn Haki.

To make this point even clearer, when Blackbeard was fighting Whitebeard, he took away Whitebeard's ability and was still pretty near killed by Whitebeard. That's just proof of Whitebeard's strength, not the strength of his ability. Don't confuse the man with the weapon. As Zoro says, it is not the sword that matters but the person wielding the swords. He doesn't have to have amazing swords to cut iron, and a pirate doesn't have to have an amazing devil fruit to be amazing. Luffy is strong even without the rubber.

Might I remind you that this is a shonen,and Oda likes Dragonball,so by the end of the series Luffy would probably be the strongest man in OP EVAR ,and he is a paramecia.Still,non-fruit users can swim...this is a major advange when,otherwise,you have equal power with your oppoment.And it might be that no fruit at all is better than any fruit for master-master-class fighters.

[Dragon88]

Well you can't just decide which df is stronger just based on fights because it depends on the user.  A fight is not just about the df.  To me Paramecia is the weakest but the thing is that there is so much varieties and uniqueness within the df.  But I would say a logia is better.  Simple comparison is Magellan's df as oppose to the one CC has.  CC has a better df because he can do so much more with his df then Magellan and truth be told even that is not a very good comparison.  Its because CC has a gas gas fruti with Magellan has a poison fruit but overall logia is better then paramecia simply because of the definition.  A paramecia basically either changes your bodies properties or you can create substances or you have completely out there fruit like Law's.  But logia does both create substances and can change the body properties plus you can't hit them without haki or their weakness.  So logia is way better then paramecia.

 

As for Zoan its interesting.  Its completely different.  Its great for close combat battles as it makes your body stronger faster and you recover faster.  With Zoan I would say if you master all forms of other battles and you are a close range fighter Zoan is the best to have to augment your fighting power.

 

But its rare to see people like that who are like master fighters who doesn't have a df.  I could only think of 3 for sure, Shanks, Raleigh and Mihawk.  I would say for them the best df out of those 3 would have to be zoan because it further increases their fighting style's power.  Because with paramecia and logia it kind of changes your fighting style but with zoan it augments your fighting style.

 

So to me zoan is the best if you are at the pinnacle of fighting and have your fighting style set and logia is the best if you are weak or a middle level of fighter and paramecia is the lowest.  But even with that ranking it depends on what logia or paramecia you kind of get.

 

To me the best df out of the show so far is Marco's df especially if someone stronger had that df.  Its like the ultimate df.  Marco I consider top level fighter but not at the pinnacle so that is why the df makes him so dangerous but still he is too reliant on his df.

 

In conclusion a person who is crazy strong with great fighting style that is close range - eat a zoan df

A person that is weak or not too strong- eat a logia df or maybe a good paramecia df.

long range fighter - probably a logia df or paramecia or maybe zoan depends on the case and the df.

[The-Wandering-Dragon]

As has been said many times, the strength of a DF can only truly be seen when its powers are properly mastered. This means regardless of which fruit type you have, unless you have ingenuity even extremely OP powers can become worthless.

The argument that a paramecia fruit is better is false. All things being equal (i.e strength, speed, technique and haki) apart from the DF, fights would be decided based on who is better able to deal with the opponent. DF fights force someone to deal with an unknown and prevail.

 

The strength of a logia user lies primarily in their AOE. Every logia we have seen can have a massive area of effect. This stems from their ability to produce a seemingly infinite amount of the substance they consist of. The true weakness of a logia is its elemental/natural opposite or counter. However haki allows damage to done to their physical body and kairouseki prevents the use of any and all abilities. Although some (only example so far is caribou) logia users do become reliant on their powers/over-confident. Examples of logia users who have trained their powers to near perfection are/were: Ace, Crocodile, Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji and Enel

 

The strength of zoan fruits are their ability to amplify someone's physical prowess. This has a wide range of effects depending on the creature-type the fruit bestows. Furthermore, with choppers medicine it seems and full awakening (Impel Down demon beasts) it seems there is still untapped potential in the zoan. Imagine how devastating Kaku's form could have been given years of training. Examples of master zoan users include Rob Lucci and Phoenix Marco.

 

Paramecia fruits have the greatest diversity, these fruits best display why the user of a fruit is more important than the power a fruit gives. Paramecia are likely known as the weakest because they give a less obvious power-up. Paramecia users in general require much more ingenuity to make their abilities useful in and out of combat. Furthermore, the basic attributes of the user are more important for those who use paramecia as they are not granted the physical immunity and do not often grant the large scale AOE damage of logia (exceptions=Whitebeard/Law/Shiki) or the massive bonus physical strength, speed and durability of zoans. However, paramecia fruits have the greatest unpredictability. Paramecia abilities can develop any number of applications depending on the user and can have unforeseen interactions with other fruits of their type/other types. E.g Magellan - Mr 3.

 

I hope from this its clear to see that each fruit type has remarkable advantages but also clear disadvantages. Unless a DF user takes the time to get a firm understanding of what their fruit does and then applies their own imagination to this, many of a fruits innate powers may never be seen.

[Dragon88]

As has been said many times, the strength of a DF can only truly be seen when its powers are properly mastered. This means regardless of which fruit type you have, unless you have ingenuity even extremely OP powers can become worthless.

The argument that a paramecia fruit is better is false. All things being equal (i.e strength, speed, technique and haki) apart from the DF, fights would be decided based on who is better able to deal with the opponent. DF fights force someone to deal with an unknown and prevail.

 

The strength of a logia user lies primarily in their AOE. Every logia we have seen can have a massive area of effect. This stems from their ability to produce a seemingly infinite amount of the substance they consist of. The true weakness of a logia is its elemental/natural opposite or counter. However haki allows damage to done to their physical body and kairouseki prevents the use of any and all abilities. Although some (only example so far is caribou) logia users do become reliant on their powers/over-confident. Examples of logia users who have trained their powers to near perfection are/were: Ace, Crocodile, Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji and Enel

 

The strength of zoan fruits are their ability to amplify someone's physical prowess. This has a wide range of effects depending on the creature-type the fruit bestows. Furthermore, with choppers medicine it seems and full awakening (Impel Down demon beasts) it seems there is still untapped potential in the zoan. Imagine how devastating Kaku's form could have been given years of training. Examples of master zoan users include Rob Lucci and Phoenix Marco.

 

Paramecia fruits have the greatest diversity, these fruits best display why the user of a fruit is more important than the power a fruit gives. Paramecia are likely known as the weakest because they give a less obvious power-up. Paramecia users in general require much more ingenuity to make their abilities useful in and out of combat. Furthermore, the basic attributes of the user are more important for those who use paramecia as they are not granted the physical immunity and do not often grant the large scale AOE damage of logia (exceptions=Whitebeard/Law/Shiki) or the massive bonus physical strength, speed and durability of zoans. However, paramecia fruits have the greatest unpredictability. Paramecia abilities can develop any number of applications depending on the user and can have unforeseen interactions with other fruits of their type/other types. E.g Magellan - Mr 3.

 

I hope from this its clear to see that each fruit type has remarkable advantages but also clear disadvantages. Unless a DF user takes the time to get a firm understanding of what their fruit does and then applies their own imagination to this, many of a fruits innate powers may never be seen.

I agree it definitely depends on the user and the level of fighting prowess.  To me I think a top tier fighter would do better with a zoan then any other df granted if he is a close to middle range fighter.  While a middle tier or weaker fighter might do better with a elemental logia df.

With paramecia its just way too many varieties and options.  There are lot of df in paramecia which you can't find in logia.  For example there is no logia rubber man yet.  If there was that would of been better df then Luffy's but since there is not you can't compare it with Luffy's df much which I think Luffy is using exceptionally well.  I actually say Luffy took his df much farther then Ace did to his df, and its to be expected Luffy had 12 years with his df while Ace had like 2 to 3 years with his df.

[Rand_alThor]

Sorry, slightly off topic, but this is so interesting I had to chime in.

 

there is no logia rubber man yet.  If there was that would of been better df then Luffy's

 

I had never considered that before... How would a logia rubber man be any different from Luffy?  His entire body is rubber already. 

[Dragon88]

 

Sorry, slightly off topic, but this is so interesting I had to chime in.

 

 

I had never considered that before... How would a logia rubber man be any different from Luffy?  His entire body is rubber already. 

Not off topic at all.  The reason logia rubber man would be better is because in that case you can also create rubber.  For example then Luffy can create rubber and then jump on the rubber to increase his speed and strength also in addition to that he could create like a rubber wall like how Mr. 3 created candle wall.  Also to note during this time he would also have all the df abilities current Luffy has like gear 2nd, gear 3rd and so on.  Its just that Luffy's df becomes way more versatile.  He would have way more option and could do lot more with his df it was a logia as oppose to a paramecia.  

Edited by Dragon88, 23 April 2013 - 10:20 PM.

[Baam420]

OP, you are not correct. Haki can also help a Logia user neutralize another's Haki attack. Hopefully it makes more sense with this image:

Spoiler

Here Kuzan is being stabbed with WB's (Yonkou level) Haki imbued weapon and he is still intangible. So basically strong Logias are not really that much affected by Haki. Basically battles are much more decided on the "will" of the participants rather then their Devil Fruits.

Besides, it is canon that Logias are actually the rarest and the most powerful DFs. You cannot argue with that.

Also, I wanted to mention that Zoan's are not as weak as you think - Marco is practically invincible unless his powers are diminished by a Seastone. Sengoku and Xdrake are really powerful as well.

I don't think WB used haki if Kuzan was stabbed in the chest with a haki imbued weapon he would die WB probably could not use haki during the War of the Best because he was sick and near death

 

Regarding DF there couldn't be a Rubber Logia DF because the abilities have to do with with nature

Logia (自然系 (ロギア) Rogia^?, literally trnslated as "Nature System")

Paramecia (超人系 (パラミシア) Paramishia^?, literally translated as "Superhuman System"^[2])

Zoan (動物系 (ゾオン), Zōn?, literally translated as "Animal System")

 

Thanks to One Piece Wiki

 

Also wondering if a Logia can use Haki wouldn't that make them solid or how would that work

Edited by baam420, 19 May 2013 - 07:19 PM.

[aenas]

I don't think WB used haki if Kuzan was stabbed in the chest with a haki imbued weapon he would die WB probably could not use haki during the War of the Best because he was sick and near death

 

Regarding DF there couldn't be a Rubber Logia DF because the abilities have to do with with nature

Logia (自然系 (ロギア) Rogia^?, literally trnslated as "Nature System")

Paramecia (超人系 (パラミシア) Paramishia^?, literally translated as "Superhuman System"^[2])

Zoan (動物系 (ゾオン), Zōn?, literally translated as "Animal System")

 

Thanks to One Piece Wiki

 

Also wondering if a Logia can use Haki wouldn't that make them solid or how would that work

Logia user are solid all the time, they only have the ability to make themselves transparent, if they weren't solid how should they pick up things.
And I think that defensife haki, like Luffy is using is pointless if you are a Logia user.
If they attack with haki, they should be able to not use the haki on themselfes, so that their body won't become solid.

[flowsthead]

Logia user are solid all the time, they only have the ability to make themselves transparent, if they weren't solid how should they pick up things.
And I think that defensife haki, like Luffy is using is pointless if you are a Logia user.
If they attack with haki, they should be able to not use the haki on themselfes, so that their body won't become solid.

 

Umm, no that doesn't make sense, or at least you are using transparent incorrectly. Otherwise, how do things go through Ace and Kizaru? How does Caribou absorb things? 

[Baam420]

Logia user are solid all the time, they only have the ability to make themselves transparent, if they weren't solid how should they pick up things.
And I think that defensife haki, like Luffy is using is pointless if you are a Logia user.
If they attack with haki, they should be able to not use the haki on themselfes, so that their body won't become solid.

Like Rayleigh said around chapter 600 Haki (if strong enough) can be used to make techs more powerful, ^that would mean logias cant use Busoshoku Haki which would make them pretty weak in the long run unless they have a good fruit. I think they can, chapter 684 smoker used haki on his smoke punch or whatever it's called but am not sure any input would would be appreciated.

Spoiler

Edited by Baam420, 01 June 2013 - 07:47 PM.

[The-Wandering-Dragon]

Logia users can use busoshoku if they choose to, but they can also dodge haki imbued weapons by purposefully moving their "intangible" body to another location. The way I've always interpreted that image where Whitebeard is stabbing at Aokiji with his polearm is that Aokiji allows the polearm to miss him completely by leaving a hole where his body should be. Plus if it were a normal weapon attack why does it go through aokiji? Since way back in water 7 we've seen attacks hit aokiji but be rendered useless not because they pass through him but because everything that touches him freezes/he breaks and reforms because he is ice. Therfore, as the polearm goes through aokiji, I infered this to mean that there was something special about Whitebeard's attack i.e haki.

[RumbleRoar]

Regarding the Mythical Zoans - I do agree that they are rarer than Logias, but they are not a DF type. They are a subtype of one of the types - Zoan. I would compare it to, let's say, the fiery subtype of Logias like Mera Mera and Magu Magu. But the whole discussion seems a bit meaningless at this point. It all boils down to semantics, which is not my favourite thing to argue about.

Paramecias are certainly interesting and there are many hidden gems amongst them. However I do not agree with your illustration of Logia user's development. There certainly is a plateau at which they are stuck in the beginning (I liked this page), but there is a lot of room for improvement.

Regarding the bounties ranking, it does not represent the actual strength of the individuals. Bounties are not power levels.

A funny fact - Luffy's intentionally made to have a goofy ability, Odachi said he wouldn't like his main character all serious and whatnot.

To further answer OP, the two strongest guys we know actually do not have any DF abilities - Gol D Roger and his first mate Rayleigh. The third strongest is probably Garp back in his prime and he also do not have a DF.

 

I'm still in the middle of reading the posts, but one thing... we don't know for certain that Gol D Roger had no df ability. I always took Rayleigh's comment, "...He had the ability to hear the voices hidden in all things." to mean he had a really special and unique ability - and that could be either df or not. But in general not much has been said about how Gol D Roger fought.

Edited by RumbleRoar, 15 August 2013 - 08:23 PM.