13 replies to this topic

[Regius]

So since we all don't want to do this alone and try and figure it out i figure we can pool the information we know and see if we can come up with a proper explanation.

So things we know~
1. Shinigami's can't kill humans or grant last wish that would do so.
2. Shinigami's can't bring the dead back to life.
3. Shinigami's can't prevent the death of a human.
4. Saaya saved a human with Destiny Death.
5. After #4 Saaya swore an oath to never break Shinigami code or lie (or she could go to hell).
6. Saaya has for some reason erased the memories of MC and Hibiki.
7. Saaya also granted Hibiki's request to "give the greatest punishment" to MC (can be interpreted as death).
8. MC was the only member of the family to survive.
9. MC wasn't alone in the room that day/night of family's murder.
10. Murders don't get last request's so MC couldn't of killed his family.

(can't think of anything else atm O.o)

Based off of just some of those i've already thought about one of the more odd aspects, that being the fact that Saaya granted a request that lead to someone's death. This can be justified if that person was already dying or soon to die but we know MC didn't kill his parents so it's impossible to just easily assume that yeah he was going to death row because he was framed so it wouldn't change anything.

I think one of the possible things that happened that night was Minamida used the book his brother wrote as a guideline to frame MC and in doing so sentencing him to death. However he (Minamida) counted on one thing, somehow or another one of his family member would become a shinigami and bring him back to life. This would do two things, one it would give him the physical evidence he needed that shinigami's existed and two it would create a second person with destiny death. (That's right because of his now unnatural existence MC is bound to die again since he already died once). What exactly Minamida needs another destiny death person for i'm still thinking about but perhaps it's along the lines of Destiny Death people are the only one's granted their last request while still alive and Minamida hopes to control the MC to use his request and wake the comatose brother up (it doesn't break the rules as it neither protects his life from death nor cause death).

This would only have Minamida as the mastermind however the actual culprit behind the murder's I still couldn't hazard a guess. I mean we just recently learned about a cousin on his dad's side and one other family member and we're supposed to assume that one of them has something to do with the families death but it's uncertain and the character are completely unknown. And the odd idea that one of the parents last request was to cover up the children's memories and tell no one about the event's of that day (since Saaya refuses to talk about it i can only guess she is force into silence and is in custody of protecting the secret).

anyway let the imaginations run wild!!!! (and post anymore fact's ya can think of)

[Ivaldi]

I made a list of things as well;

Saaya
- saaya became a shinigami 10 years ago, after half a year of training
- Saaya can't lie
- said she doesn't know anything about the families deaths
- can't murder or revive people
- said if they discover the truth she will erase it again
- when the chief went to look at information regarding Shizuka, she was told there were certain rules shinigami can't break (which i believe to be that they can not murder or revive people?)
- Satsuki can also erase memory

Evil Spirits
- evil spirits can possess people and cannot be detected by shinigami 'soul search'

Last Requests
- two types of last requests, requests in life, and post-death requests
- post-death requests can have a lag time of several minutes to hours between the death and last request due to investigation
- shinigami should do everything they can to grant a last request
- Can not result in reviving someone or killing someone

Shizuka and Hibiki
- Shizuka and Hibiki were both granted a last request
- Aunt died 15 years ago
- mother was in accident 15 years ago, while pregnant with Hibiki
- mother may have requested to see his daughters face as a last request
- Shizuka was a ghost writer, and fairly physically gifted
- father or Shizuka knew the culprit

Minamida's
- Azuma destined to die 10 years ago, in coma
- Azuma's brother is "much younger" than him
- Shiroha's mother died 13 years ago, was a plan by "Minamida"
- planned for shiroha to be killed by father to 'bring the miracle of 13 years ago once more'
- Novel from 10 years ago was not finished but considered a murder mystery and a 'masterpiece'
- Likley to have been a witness, but not confirmed
- Azuma's last request was to watch to see if he died, but should have been cancelled, as he did not die.

Possible last requests:

Father:
- Wipe memory of Shizuka

Cousin:
- Prevent Hibiki's mother from seeing Hibiki's face

If I've missed anything important let me know and I'll add it.


Unknown points, need proof for:

Last requests for people who have committed murder whilst possessed.

I think the book theory is a good one, but with the supernatural element + 2 basically new characters introduced in the last 2 chapters anything I had considered plausible before would no longer make sense.

[Erakk]

I dunno, but i cannot discard the though that Saaya is Hibiki/Shizuka's dead "aunt".
Also your point about 10 year old novel being a famous murder mistery, makes me think that the good Minamida wrote all real stories that were murders commited by his younger brother. The finishing piece has to do with Shizuka one way or another...
I don't remember if they ever mentioned, but was Shizuka's father a professor/writer? I can see a relation if yes, because, Minamida was a writer, Shizuka was a ghost writer, so maybe Shizuka's father knew the brothers? Then i think the murder might have been commited by the younger brother, so he can finish the work of his in-coma older brother.

@Last requests for people who have committed murder whilist possesed:
I think, because of the aspect of the soul, a possesed pesron has two souls. Then, the one in control has the blame, which does not nulls the "innocent" soul's last request,while sending the murdering soul to a deeper part of hell.

[flameeternity]

Minamida could not have done this, his brothers book was never completed. I like the idea that Minamida is going to use Shizuka to bring back his brother BUT from what i have gathered Minamida found Shizuka on accident so that semi debunks that sadly. Plus Minamida needs Shizuka so he can finish his brothers book. I know Minamida has been shown to be a total peice of sh1t character, but there is one thing i can say for certain if he wanted someone to bring his brother back with a last request he would not use Shizuka. I want to nominate the Shinigami surface department

[Sheapy]

There has to be a reason to the dream that Shizuka had at the beginning of chapter 18. We basically know that his mother's last request would be to see Hibiki's face. I'm assuming his Dad's last request would be the memory wipe of everyone there to protect the person that actually killed the family. Knowing this, we can eliminate the mother's last request as something superficial and focus on the dad's.

There's also the order regarding the way the deaths of the family occurred. By the looks of page 8 we can assume that the father was probably the last family member alive. So the mother's last wish of wanting to see Hibiki's face and Hibiki's last wish of the ultimate punishment happened. This can be confirmed by re-reading the first chapter where Hibiki sees her father die and is then visited by the Shinigami.

I also think that the "Maximum Punishment" last request of the little sister was how the trials ended up being expedited and ultimately resulting in the execution.

Edited by Sheapy, 14 February 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[Cricycle]

I don't think it has been mentioned, but I think that the reason Saaya is telling the truth when she says "She doesn't know anything." even when she was there and really should is because she erased her own memory. Why? I don't know.

[Billy_is_Sin]

It would be best to use this as a guide, though this is the interpretation of the original 10 rules.

Father Knox's Decalogue
1. The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow. 2. All supernaural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course. 3. Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable. 4. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end. 5. No Chinaman must figure in the story. 6. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right. 7. The detective must not himself commit the crime. 8. The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader. 9. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader. 10. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them.


Whether or not the story breaks one of these rules is up for debate. However, what I can say is that no one mentioned in the early part of the story can be considered as the culprit.

[Regius]

Minamida could not have done this, his brothers book was never completed. I like the idea that Minamida is going to use Shizuka to bring back his brother BUT from what i have gathered Minamida found Shizuka on accident so that semi debunks that sadly. Plus Minamida needs Shizuka so he can finish his brothers book. I know Minamida has been shown to be a total peice of sh1t character, but there is one thing i can say for certain if he wanted someone to bring his brother back with a last request he would not use Shizuka. I want to nominate the Shinigami surface department

 

I thought about this for a long time too, because the idea was that he never finished the book it would be useless but you have to remember it, he was one day--no actually he was less than a day away from finishing the book, the way i see this is that the culprit was never revealed however the crimes written about in the book were more than suitably described to be imitated by an equally intelligent younger brother.

 

Another thing i have see people doing is assuming...again lol we have to think outside the box and the biggest assumption people are jumping on is that Hibiki's mother last request was to see her children's faces. I know this sounds simple and logical to assume of her but we don't know how the spiritual manifestation of her ghost would of occurred namely would her physically impairments have actually carried over to her spiritual body? If not this leaves a huge gap in what her actually last request would have been. So what if when she died she saw her children, one murdered the other with a bloody knife/machete and in a state of pure panic simply wished that her family never remember such a horrible incident? If so then something like

 

->family murdered

 

->Saya tasked with the retrieval and granting of they're last requests

 

->Father is first to have last request granted (unknown request; possibly tasks Saya with protecting murderer due to familiarity)

 

->Mother wakes up in horror to see her children dead/blood covered (wishes family to forget events)

 

->Hibiki wakes up and thanks to mothers wish can only visually assume Shizuka murdered family (wishes for Maximum punishment)

 

If these event took place then the intimacy of the murderer to the father/family would have to be very very high (if i remember correctly like 90% of murder victims know their killers). This supports another close family member like the aunt/sister/cousin (she dead so it's not her) but without info on other member of the family it's fairly unlikely they are involved.

 

@Billy_is_sin

 

According to those rules then we would have Shizuka as "Holmes", Hinbiki is "Watson", of course this is a supernatural element type manga so we can sort of disregard 2. For Rule 3 we can kind of "break" it because of the supernatural element of shinigami's who can at will move through the world. Rule 4 has no real impact as far as we can see. 5 is not applicable. 6, idk about this one i mean Shizuka can be fairly good at his deductions as far as solving the necessary elements of each case but not to the point of being a clairvoyant type character. 7 we already learned is true. 8 hm...idk this can border on thriller at times so it's hard to say. 9 as stated is Hibiki the character who questions Shizuka's plans so we get the insight. 10...well their not twins so to speak but we do have brothers, one is comatose so i think it won't actually affect the rule but...anyway.

 

If we go by these rules we're left with the shinigami's (in general as a group not a singular being), Minamida, Saya, and the family itself (excluding Shizuka who's the "Holmes" thus free). Of course we assume the family is guilt free but again we only know Hibiki was the last to wake up so maybe not all the family got last requests and one of them may of actually committed the murders causing the other to wish for complete erasing of all memories.

Edited by Regius, 19 March 2013 - 04:14 AM.

[Hellarion]

It has been a while since i last read this, so i apologize if this is really wrong, but isn't the "the greatest punishment" for Shizuka is to make him think he killed his own family? I mean, when his sis come back to send him to hell he answers with " i'm glad" (i forgot the actual setence...). Also, couldn't the fact that he is alive mean that it was someone last request, and the murderer was going to kill everyone, and then changed his mind to framing him at the last moment (last request effect, and in combination with the sis request becomes a sucessefull framing)? With this, it is used both parents request, with one wishing to save him and the other to erase the memories, in order for him to live 'happily' after that.

[Billy_is_Sin]

According to those rules then we would have Shizuka as "Holmes", Hinbiki is "Watson", of course this is a supernatural element type manga so we can sort of disregard 2. For Rule 3 we can kind of "break" it because of the supernatural element of shinigami's who can at will move through the world. Rule 4 has no real impact as far as we can see. 5 is not applicable. 6, idk about this one i mean Shizuka can be fairly good at his deductions as far as solving the necessary elements of each case but not to the point of being a clairvoyant type character. 7 we already learned is true. 8 hm...idk this can border on thriller at times so it's hard to say. 9 as stated is Hibiki the character who questions Shizuka's plans so we get the insight. 10...well their not twins so to speak but we do have brothers, one is comatose so i think it won't actually affect the rule but...anyway.

 

If we go by these rules we're left with the shinigami's (in general as a group not a singular being), Minamida, Saya, and the family itself (excluding Shizuka who's the "Holmes" thus free). Of course we assume the family is guilt free but again we only know Hibiki was the last to wake up so maybe not all the family got last requests and one of them may of actually committed the murders causing the other to wish for complete erasing of all memories.

Okay I'll expend on my thoughts on the rules here. I wanted to view this mystery from a what if perspective when this involves reality/mystery perspective in a sense that the shinigami's or unnatural events do not affect the series of events. The culprit must be done by a person who is an actual human being.

Rule 2:

   -I wanted this to apply to the Shinigami Surface department because they have not DIRECTLY made an action that results in the murder of the family members. They have not really become a accomplice of the murder.

Rule 3:
    - In a what if scenario, even if the person/culprit were to use hidden passages, this rule would strike it down and force the reader to think of another way for a culprit to escape from a crime scene.

 

Rule 4:
    - Just to make sure no one thinks up of a ridiculous idea to solve this mystery. (VN/manga/anime reference- small bombs in soups)

Rule 5:
    - I wanted this to translate to "People who were not introduced early on in the story should not be involved in the incident.)
    - Rules out the cousin family member.

Rule 6:
    - Yeah, this kind of makes Shizuka's standpoint on being the detective stronger.

Rule 7: True

Rule 8:

  -Mostly for a what-if scenario from a mystery perspective that the Boy A incident involves the clues that were introduced sometime in the story.
  -Kind of like the ending to "Inception," because the actual ending will involve thinking about small clues presented earlier in the story. Clues that involves people taking the time to look for clues.
 

Rule 9: As stated

Rule 10:
 - Just to rule out that someone may not disguise as another person without giving us a hint/clue that the person may have the capabilities to dress up like another person.


Yeah, that kind of sums up my mystery/reality perspective. I wanted to see if this case can be solved from a perspective that the shinigami's represent the characters imagination or they represent a psychological mentality of some sort.

@Hellarion
 

  Okay the idea of "Greatest Punishment," is very vague. These words did come out of Hibiki's mouth, but the Punishment can vary from person to person. I can probably think of some others that can be considered as "Greatest Punishment," but that can vary depending on the person it applies to. As a possibility for Shizuka's punishment, yes. As a actual possibility, it is unknown at this point unless we find more clues to this punishment. 
 

[patrickpogi]

minamida

-the son of the father's cousin

-murderer because he wanted to know if the shinigami is real and planned to commit murder with someone he knows / to get revenge to and since he most likely know that one of the family members will become a shinigami in order to punish the killer he set things up, so when he knew that shinigamis are real he kidnapped shizuka and forced to make a final wish about his brother waking from the comma

[Azunata]

So, I'm late to the party, but I guess I'll drop my theory here.

 

I think it's Saaya, and probably the main reason why is because she just seems too significant not to. Heck, Shizuka has been dropping bombs all over her at the final chapter.

Thinking about it, Saaya is one of the only shinigamis that actually got back story that puts her in a indirect relationship with Minamida, and that's through Azuma who she already broke one shinigami rule for. So, it's not much of stretch that Saaya had met, or knew of Minamida's existence.

Then there's the issue with Minamida himself and why he knew about the shinigamis. The concept of shinigamis in this manga-verse of became slightly more concrete with the Shinigami Game, so it can probably be established that no one truly understood what a shinigami was, except for Minamida. This has to be because he either heard about it from Azuma, and because Saaya was supposed to look over Azuma, her as well.

We can assume Midamina isn't the murderer because of the whole 'it's someone we know' clause, but he was there. It means he had some relationship with the person who killed Shizuka's family if that person ignored him enough for him to take a picture. He could be hiding, you may say, but why would he be there in first place if not to take that picture? He had to know what would happen, and who did what. Recall that in Ch 16, shinigamis can change forms. This could mean that a Shinigami took the form of Shizuka, or a friend or whatever, and killed his family in that form. In a technical sense, Saaya did not kill as a 'shinigami'.

Why would she do it anyways? According to Azuma, he digs chicks with boobs. Saaya's got them now, and she still has glasses to boot. Seemingly these are all cosmetics as shinigamis can look however they want; glasses just being an accessory at that point. This could mean that Saaya still has feelings for Azuma and has not moved on.

How could she pull it off? Because no one remembers. She never makes a mistake because no one remembers if she did.

 

Shizuka talks about Saaya a bit too, during the final chapter, bolding important things, but the quote that really pokes its head out is that "she can lie", and "she knew nothing about the incident". So yeah, she knew. She erased the memories of the only person that knew because the true culprit should never have been there, because it was her. After Shizuka took up the weapon, Saaya picked up Hibiki's soul and turned her into a shinigami because she wanted Shizuka to live long enough to meet Minamida.

 

Shizuka even said that Saaya's action seemed like it all fit under some sort of mechanism. She knew Hibiki would not kill Shizuka, thus allowing her last request to pass, despite, on paper, the request going against the shinigami's conditions. Saaya doesn't make mistakes. She did all this just because she knew Shizuka could somehow help Azuma wake up from his comma.

 

tl;dr, Saaya doesn't make mistakes.

[manga-addict]

Hey theree

So just thought I'd add some possibilities I haven't seen anyone comment

 

Shizuka could have been either SPARED, or SAVED.

 

SPARED means that the culprit liked only Shizuka out of the group, or he kept him alive as a scapegoat. I mean, he is the most murder-y one in the family. What I'm confused then is why the culprit didn't change scape goats! I mean, from what we know, Shizuka was fighting an outsider, and his father yelled at him to stop. Why would the culprit kill the father before he went to kill Shizuka??

 

SAVED- The father we know probably died instantly. I mean decapitation works pretty fast, I'd say. That means that if he had died, could he have used his last wish to save Shizuka? Say when he was going to die, he saves him? Technically, that doesn't involve resurrection, though it may involve toying with life.

 

SAAYA

So assuming Saaya actually does tell the truth and doesn't lie and doesn't break the law and doesn't make mistakes, did she or did she not erase his memories?

There are only three where she could have.

1. Erasing someone's memory doesn't mean that you have to see it. Saaya arrived at the crime scene after all the kills had been made and saw potentially the same scene as Hibiki. Someone requested that Saaya erase Shizuka's memory, so she did, and once she had finished, was still clueless about what had happened on the scene.

2. Erasing someone's memory does mean that you have to see it. In this case, it doesn't matter if Saaya saw the scene or not, the last wish could have been that no one alive would know/see the culprit committing the crime. That would mean Saaya erased Shizuka's memory, and then erased her own. (Since technically she's alive...? Kind of?). Therefore, her knowing nothing about the incident would be true, since she erased all her memories. Not a lie, just part of a truth!

3. Saaya didn't erase Shizuka's memories. Either Shizuka lost his memories through some mundane way like PTSD, or he was unconscious at the time of the crime. I don't know quite how this'd play out but it's a possibility.

 

Also, in the case that Saaya did erase the memories, did the memories get erased BEFORE Shizuka was sent to jail and confined? Or sometime within the 3 months where he had entered the jail but had not been in contact with Hibiki yet.

 

 

Lastly, I got 6 possibilities for the "mechanism" that would ensure no matter what, Saaya did nothing wrong by granting Hibiki's wish, although it led to Shizuka's execution.

 

1. Shizuka was guilty, but we know that's not true- he got a last wish (assuming the shinigami know all this stuff.)

1. (a possible one). Wish cancellation, as was done to Asami with her healthy body. But would that mean a shinigami would have to follow Shizuka around all day? In which case it's unlikely.

2. It was someone's last wish that things played out exactly as they did. Hibiki as Shizuka's reaper, the escape, the death and the revival- everything. (Pretty elaborate wish if you ask me)

3. Shizuka was doomed to die already as a Destiny: Dead. Before the murder. Which would make sense, kind of since he did kind of end up dying....

4. They would somehow make, or someone had requested to make Shizuka guilty of something else anyway.

5. Someone like Asami would publicly challenge and bring up enough doubt on the "Boy A" case that the execution would be postponed or scrapped.

6. They leave Shizuka to die. However, he gets a last wish, since he was innocent and was a victim.

 

 

Did I help anyone get closer to the truth??

 

 

 

[Nova12833]

Isn't it the mother? how else would she get into the living room and why did Hibiki get her legs cut off when the dad got it in the chest and the mom got it in the throat? make her suffer the same way her mother did being paralyzed. she wished to be healthy enough to see Hibiki before she died and she got healthy enough to walk and see then maybe Hibiki looked like the cousin that died and the mother freaked out seeing her and went and chopped her legs off the dad see's this and try's to stop her in the struggle he gets stabbed in the chest she snaps back into reality and MC walks in and goes to stop her from killing herself or doesn't know she's snapped out of it and struggles with her the dad's tell MC to stop he does and she kills herself. It couldn't be Minamida since he never knew MC till the phone call and was only interested in him to complete his brother's book that he never finished he say's that in the hospital room.