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Sata Kyouya is abusive?

ookami shoujo to kuro ouji abusive relationship

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#1
jaxkels

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Please help me understand the claims the Kyouya 'abuses' Erika. Early in the manga, it may be understandable. It was kind of a forced agreement on both side that Kyouya would be/pretend to be Erika's boyfriend, and Erika would be Kyouya's 'lackey'. Kyouya exercises his power but I don't remember him hurting Erika either physically or through "out-of-line" remarks (I remember him being quite nice, actually). Really, most of the "cringes" I had to endure was caused by Erika. I don't think it would be very nice to be 'forced' in a relationship, 'forced' to falsely admitting to supposedly embarrassing sexual plays(?).

 

It's even harder for me to see abuse when the manga dropped the premise of "Wolf Girl and Black Prince". It's more like "Elated Girl and Tsundere Prince" now.

 

I also remember this manga being "publicized/marketed" as something like a portrayal of "sadistic relationship" (I think it's in one of the cover pages). I don't get it.

 

note* I don't remember a lot of details in the early chapters.



#2
madelinelime

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He still calls her a dog. he still dismisses her opinion and sometimes is gas lighting her. He wants most things, especially communication, on his terms. He was horrible in the beginning, which was the entire point of the manga, but he still has pretty bad attitudes towards her. Yes, he has changed, even a great amount, but he still shows really repulsive tendencies. I've had to step away from it for a bit because it was starting to be too much for me to read given my current really bad living arrangements.

 

Abuse is not always physical, much of it can be emotional or verbal. She seems to be on a hairline trigger sometimes on his reactions. She knows how bad he can be, which is why it took so long for her to trust him. I don't even see her fully trusting him yet, anyway.

 

"5. He will be sweet and caring -- sometimes. He will be the sweet, loving man who everyone else sees, and who you fell in love with. But, sometimes, he will become the man who puts you down, makes you feel guilty, and isolates you. He will make you believe that if you just did something differently, loved him more, or treated him better, he would be that sweet, loving man all the time. You will stay because of your hope for the man you love, but will spend most of your time being controlled by the man who hurts you. Eventually, you won't be able to tell the difference." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pamela-jacobs/early-warning-signs-of-an_b_6009076.html

 

Just try and imagine if the roles were reversed. A lot of the way he treats her has misogynistic tendencies, and it's not obvious because most cultures treat women badly to begin with.



#3
jaxkels

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I feel like I'd need in-manga citation for some of these claims so we can 'judge' properly because it feels like you're looking at the character too harshly. 1) Erika being a "dog" may be something the couple look back on from when their relationship is really rocky. And Erika is actually portrayed as dog-like (even when Kyouya is out). 2) Moments I remember Erika's 'opinions' being "dismissed" are numerous invitations to dates, wanting Kyouya to make friends with Kamiya, wanting Kyouya to tutor Erika's cousin (and intruding the tutor session). Of course a person can refuse. 3) I'm not familiar with gaslighting but I checked wiki and don't remember instances of it in this manga. 

 

For the most part, looking back, it seems like Erika is more active in the relationship because she's the one who does things/asks Kyouya to do things. There was that thing with Sanda's brother though, showing a sort of possessive side to Kyouya.

 

About the link though. I can take that as support against "Sata Kyouya is abusive". First, while maybe applicable, I'm not connecting the other five warning signs to Kyouya. For the quoted one, I see Kyouya more as a sour but nice person, instead of sometimes sweet, sometimes 'abusive'. The matter of isolation is not much of a problem. "Puts you down, make you feel guilty" is present but I'm sure if you can call the relationship abusive based on this: Erika often seems entitled (i.e early in the manga, she expects certain things even in a pretend relationship), and she's definitely not perfect and has done wrong (i.e reminder that she's lying to her gal friends). 

 

I really prefer in-manga 'evidence' so please feel free to refute my 'defense' using that.



#4
yserieh

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If you're questioning if this relationship is abusive and not seeing it, I urge you to look up support sites for victims of abuse. Also, seek counseling if you're in a similar situation or before you start dating. This comic is rich in red flags and a good narrative of a romanticizing a unhealthy relationship.

It seems as this manga progress Erika seems to become a bigger victim and more of "battered wife". Completely accepting everything negative that happens to her is her fault. Doing anything so he's not mad at her, that he's happy with her, etc.

One highlight of this is the chapter about her gaining weight. That is truly classic psychological abuse. Erika wants to lose weight and it should be her choice, but it's becomes something ugly. Sata Kyouya manipulates her, not because he's supporting her choice or wants her to be healthy... But just on principal? Just because? In the end, who knows. He doesn't actually view her an equal or partner. You can love a pet.

The entire relationship is about an abusive dog who sticks by their master as the master struggles to be decent person is the take away. I read it pretty much as research to counter and STOP to inform someone what is a HEALTHY and SAFE relationship.

Basically why I'm even bothering with this terrible manga is one of my clients reads this manga, so it worries me there are threads like this that make people even question if he's being abusive. The answer is simple: Yes. It is not a safe or healthy relationship. Culture differences or no.


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#5
jaxkels

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I don't really like feeling attack for being curious about this thing. I also do not appreciate being told "go to these sites, then you'll see" esp. without leaving links.

 

Besides the one linked above, I've checked these sites http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-a-Potentially-Abusive-Relationship | http://www.helpguide.org/articles/abuse/domestic-violence-and-abuse.htm. As I've mentioned in a previous post, I'm taking this as support against "Sata Kyouya is abusive" because I'm not an expert in this stuff and simply compare what I remember from the manga to the "warning signs" I generally see things not lining up. Possessive is a 'characteristic' that does--not to even to an extreme, but saying that a person is abusive because of one trait he has doesn't seem sound.

 

I don't really get your point about the chapter where Erika gains weight. I re-read it and I will concede that it got really sour around this point http://vatoto.com/read/_/290800/ookami-shoujo-to-kuro-ouji_v9_ch32_by_freewheeling-scanlations/32 (but I'm assuming you meant that the whole chapter portrays an abusive relationship). Still, there are probably a few things to consider: 1) possible bad taste by the author 2) miscommunication and bad mood (as in, it would probably be difficult to find nice words to say after someone who asked for help ends up wasting it because of something stupid)  3) the characters are children (comes with the teasing, being insensitive, and being too sensitive and having strange expectations)... 

 

I find discussing whether the manga portrays a healthy relationship or not irrelevant, unless 'not healthy' automatically means abusive (courtesy of the male partner). I'm pretty sure it is established from the start that the manga will not be portraying a healthy relationship judging from how the premise is. Please stick to the topic.


Edited by jaxkels, 17 December 2014 - 02:37 AM.


#6
svines85

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Please help me understand the claims the Kyouya 'abuses' Erika. Early in the manga, it may be understandable. It was kind of a forced agreement on both side that Kyouya would be/pretend to be Erika's boyfriend, and Erika would be Kyouya's 'lackey'. Kyouya exercises his power but I don't remember him hurting Erika either physically or through "out-of-line" remarks (I remember him being quite nice, actually).

Spoiler

note* I don't remember a lot of details in the early chapters.

 

Holy cow, you're either an incredible misogynist or you read the early chapters through the thickest pair of rose-colored glasses in the world. I quit the title because he was just so unlikable (and yeah, absolutely, his deplorable treatment of the female MC #1).

 

Yeah, I know it was actually billed as a "sadistic relationship" story or whatever........but wow, that stuff (when I was still reading it) was just too ugly to continue reading for me. I prefer to not have to watch someone getting ground into the dirt every time I look, that stuff's really just not any fun.

 

Maybe it got better, maybe I'll go back to it some day.....but I doubt it. He just became too unlikable a character to redeem himself for me.


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#7
madelinelime

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"I don't really like feeling attack for being curious about this thing. ..."

 

I have made several posts and comments that you have clearly read, and you continue to what, dismiss them? If you feel attacked then its your problem for not paying attention to what several people, myself included, and reiterated several times over now. I've stated why, I'm not going to go find the exact page numbers for you, another reader. You have the internet, use it.

 

I also never stated all 5 of them apply to him, and it feels like no matter what anyone says, you are going to fight them on it. Are you really interested, or are you here for a fight? Because everything you've said indicates you are only here for a fight and I'm going to side with the question of you being an incredible misogynist based on all your words and ignoring of the male protag's actions. I gave you a link to notice that 1 or 2 of those applies to him, and he's on the border for the rest. I was familiarizing you with abuse, how people view victims, and everything else, and you just don't seem to care or understand how any of it applies.

 

It was labeled an abusive thing, with an air of redemption. He's certainly started to change himself for the better, but he's STILL abusing her, and he's not going to change and ever treat her with dignity, respect, or like a human. I speak on that from personal experience.



#8
jaxkels

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(I can't get the formatting right)

 

@madelinelime You have one post in this thread. It's the one reply with a link to outside resource which I appreciate. You don't really have to find the exact page number. I can find the page if you give me the chapter or the instance where these things happen. Like I did in my reply to yserieh's post. 

 

So I've mentioned before that I feel like you are judging the characters too harshly. And in a separate post I've stated that "saying that a person is abusive because of one trait he has (ie. possessiveness of any degree) doesn't seem sound. If you're stating that not all 5 of EARLY SIGNS of an abusive relationship apply, then the problem may not be abusive relationship. That did not come out right, but I'm trying to apply same reasoning as diagnostics. 

 

Of course, I may be too lenient in how I view a manga that I casually read (even after I brought this topic up). It's not like I ignore what Kyouya does (the later chapters just give off a better impression) but I'd also consider other stuff like, as I've been saying, Erika who started this whole thing (don't hold this against me, she's still okay) or that they're 'stupid' children in a not-serious manga.

 

I should mention that the first instance I felt "offended" was when yserieh felt like adding that it worries him/her that this thread is even a thing. There are matters that are not obvious to everyone so I felt like starting this, and that remark felt unnecessary. Being wrongly(?) called a misogynist isn't too much of a problem, unless the forum will bring bad news and say that I really am, despite me not seeing myself in this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny). And in that instance, please tell me how to close this thread because I'd have no business here.  


Edited by jaxkels, 24 January 2015 - 08:41 PM.


#9
Purple Library Guy

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While I do think this relationship is abusive, I'm kind of surprised by how . . . abusively people are treating jaxkels about it.



#10
Oukahime

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I have made several posts and comments that you have clearly read, and you continue to what, dismiss them? If you feel attacked then its your problem for not paying attention to what several people, myself included, and reiterated several times over now. I've stated why, I'm not going to go find the exact page numbers for you, another reader. You have the internet, use it.

 

I also never stated all 5 of them apply to him, and it feels like no matter what anyone says, you are going to fight them on it. Are you really interested, or are you here for a fight? Because everything you've said indicates you are only here for a fight and I'm going to side with the question of you being an incredible misogynist based on all your words and ignoring of the male protag's actions. I gave you a link to notice that 1 or 2 of those applies to him, and he's on the border for the rest. I was familiarizing you with abuse, how people view victims, and everything else, and you just don't seem to care or understand how any of it applies.

 

It was labeled an abusive thing, with an air of redemption. He's certainly started to change himself for the better, but he's STILL abusing her, and he's not going to change and ever treat her with dignity, respect, or like a human. I speak on that from personal experience.

I honestly believe that you're just overthinking things. Not because your assessment is wrong (you're right), but because I doubt that the writer realizes this him/herself. For the record, I do think that the relationship is actually abusive when you look at it on paper. Kyouya is manipulative and knows Erika practically in and out. But I think the problem with reading inbetween the lines and taking things too realistically is that the author's intention is almost certainly just to show that Kyouya was a bad person who's being positively influenced by Erika. When he's occasionally being sweet to him, it's not because of some manipulation tactic. It's very obvious that he's just a type-A tsundere who has difficulty displaying his affection because he's incredibly cynical. Unfortunately, the unforeseen implications of this are that he just comes off very abusive. Which he pretty much would be if this wasn't a manga and we didn't have further insight on how he feels.



#11
Yokohama

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(I can't get the formatting right)

 

@madelinelime You have one post in this thread. It's the one reply with a link to outside resource which I appreciate. You don't really have to find the exact page number. I can find the page if you give me the chapter or the instance where these things happen. Like I did in my reply to yserieh's post. 

 

So I've mentioned before that I feel like you are judging the characters too harshly. And in a separate post I've stated that "saying that a person is abusive because of one trait he has (ie. possessiveness of any degree) doesn't seem sound. If you're stating that not all 5 of EARLY SIGNS of an abusive relationship apply, then the problem may not be abusive relationship. That did not come out right, but I'm trying to apply same reasoning as diagnostics. 

 

Of course, I may be too lenient in how I view a manga that I casually read (even after I brought this topic up). It's not like I ignore what Kyouya does (the later chapters just give off a better impression) but I'd also consider other stuff like, as I've been saying, Erika who started this whole thing (don't hold this against me, she's still okay) or that they're 'stupid' children in a not-serious manga.

 

I should mention that the first instance I felt "offended" was when yserieh felt like adding that it worries him/her that this thread is even a thing. There are matters that are not obvious to everyone so I felt like starting this, and that remark felt unnecessary. Being wrongly(?) called a misogynist isn't too much of a problem, unless the forum will bring bad news and say that I really am, despite me not seeing myself in this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny). And in that instance, please tell me how to close this thread because I'd have no business here.  

Users can't delete their own posts but you can report your thread and ask for it to be deleted. It's inside the FAQ so it's not improper usage of the Report function, I don't believe. ^^ https://vatoto.com/forums/topic/16724-batotos-frequently-asked-questions/#content_delete

Anyway, while I think Kyouya was abusive in the beginning, I don't know about agreeing for the later chapters

Also, yeah, the people in this thread arguing with jaxkels were being ... rather phallic object-like about it.


Edited by Yokohama, 26 January 2015 - 12:30 AM.


#12
madelinelime

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(I can't get the formatting right)

 

@madelinelime You have one post in this thread. It's the one reply with a link to outside resource which I appreciate. You don't really have to find the exact page number. I can find the page if you give me the chapter or the instance where these things happen. Like I did in my reply to yserieh's post. 

 

 

You made this post after you saw my comment(s) on the manga mainpage. I am the reason you made this thread. I was the one who pointed out how abusive he is, so yes, I refer to my more than once instance that you have very much read since mine is the comment that inspired you to even post this in the first place.

 

I blasted through this in one go and have read ahead of what is scanned here, so there's no way for me to even give you chapters. He talks about her weight, (fat shaming ways like calling her a pig, etc) he literally calls her a dog, still, he is possessive, doesn't show much compassion unless forced, and has had very slow character development to even treat her as a human. Being a teenager isn't an excuse, he's flat out abusive towards her and it's disgusting that some of you are defending that or acting like it's okay to pretend it's not going on. As someone who has had to deal with this kind of abuse? It's not okay. Stop condoning it. I'm not going to coddle people, sheesh.


Edited by madelinelime, 26 January 2015 - 05:10 AM.


#13
Oukahime

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I'm not really pretending that it's not going on. You say that he'll never change because you've experienced it. But that's because, in reality, you're right. These people will not change if they're an abusive partner. A lot of times they're sociopaths. But the point is that Kyouya isn't written to be abusive. This is not to say that he doesn't do abusive things. What I'm saying is that him being abusive is not really the point. He's supposed to just be someone that has an extremely negative worldview from whatever happened in his past.

 

Again, if he were an actual person, then, yes, I would agree that he is abusive. But in a manga, you can't just do things like write off the fact that what ultimately control's a character and who they are is the author. And I really doubt he/she is writing this with the mindset that Kyouya will never change, seeing as how him changing is a very important facet of the manga.

 

With that said, though, I'm very sorry to hear that. I'm sure I would feel exactly the same as you had I gone through whatever you may have. I fortunately haven't so I'm much more able to detach and suspend disbelief.



#14
jaxkels

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You made this post after you saw my comment(s) on the manga mainpage. I am the reason you made this thread. I was the one who pointed out how abusive he is, so yes, I refer to my more than once instance that you have very much read since mine is the comment that inspired you to even post this in the first place.

 

I blasted through this in one go and have read ahead of what is scanned here, so there's no way for me to even give you chapters. He talks about her weight, (fat shaming ways like calling her a pig, etc) he literally calls her a dog, still, he is possessive, doesn't show much compassion unless forced, and has had very slow character development to even treat her as a human. Being a teenager isn't an excuse, he's flat out abusive towards her and it's disgusting that some of you are defending that or acting like it's okay to pretend it's not going on. As someone who has had to deal with this kind of abuse? It's not okay. Stop condoning it. I'm not going to coddle people, sheesh.

 

I don't really remember who comments what. I just vaguely remember something like "30 chapters in, still abusive" and a few comments riding that. But I don't think those are too important. If you think so, you might want to add it here.

 

I already admitted that I might be too lenient in how I view this stuff. I don't see how the weight thing is 'abusive' because as I've mentioned in my post above, it's both parties' "fault" (and iirc "pig" wasn't a matter of weight but of self-discipline)... I'll just add that the pig remark is mean for sure. Possessiveness also went in both ways (iirc) except it's worse on Kyouya's part because Erika got involved with more guys. Things like that. The whole thing just isn't a good arrangement. Sometimes after I read a chapter, I just think how lucky that they can stand each other and that they're still together [half-joking]. Also, I don't think you should take "immaturity" out of consideration, especially the accompanying words I used: "stupid" and "in a not-serious manga".  

 

In addition to my 'leniency', I don't think I have a good grasp of what 'abuse' is (due to lack of experience), although I have a solid view of what it is (from how it's portrayed, and from things I can look up). For the most part, "abuse" means that there is a victim and a perpetrator (or something). Erika's is not a face of a victim hence my "Elated Girl" comment. There is just a point where it felt like the author dropped the "sadistic relationship" (which is actually closer to 'abusive') premise. I suppose there is also a matter of exploitation, which, in this manga's case, is "mutual" from the start, except Erika got the "worse" part of the deal. Anyway, another way I use to judge for myself is found in post #8. I look at the signs and "tick the boxes". If the boxes just say the guy is possessive, the guy is just possessive.

 

Really, instead of us repeating our points (or just me repeating mine), it would help if someone will just point out a logical flaw in my thinking. Let me keep my 'leniency' though...for a different perspective. 

 

 

 

Users can't delete their own posts but you can report your thread and ask for it to be deleted. It's inside the FAQ so it's not improper usage of the Report function, I don't believe. ^^ https://vatoto.com/forums/topic/16724-batotos-frequently-asked-questions/#content_delete

Thanks for the info.



#15
Yokohama

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Okay, so I reread some of the manga, and I guess it was different than what I had thought. I apologize for not understanding that, though I'm still going to stand by that the people arguing it is going about the wrong way. Dismissing others' status as a decent human being of decent standing when they are trying to understand is : /, and I don't get that.

 

Kyouya is undoubtedly abusive as a real person. In the manga, this is shown as alright, because he's seen as a positive influence on what Erika wants 'deep down'. (as a fictional work, this is possible, but imagining this situation in real life is a terrible one). In the weight loss example, Erika wants a firm slap on the wrist, so that she doesn't allow herself to slack. But in real life, this is just Kyouya giving her conditional love only when she adheres to his standards, and despising her when she doesn't make it. He's constantly demeaning her and her status as a human being, and making her feel like she's below him. Kyouya doesn't really seem like he knows his behavior is bad, but not all abusers really deliberately try to abuse their partners.

 

Err, if it's alright for me to continue, Erika doesn't seem like the face of abuse, but people who are abused don't always seem like they are being abused. Take especially small children for example, whose parents abuse them. They'll still stick around and think their parents are the best things since sliced bread because of their naivete and innocence, regardless of how they're beat or treated. They'll try to fix their behavior, rather than thinking their parents' behavior is at fault.

 

Anyway, I don't really know too much about abuse either tbh, and I only reread one chapter, and  i guess I'd have to say Kyouya is abusive. Sorry about retconning my words, as well. Anyway... I know I'm dumping all of this, but I'd rather not argue about it, but I'm more than welcome to criticism in my thinking and what I've said.


Edited by Yokohama, 28 January 2015 - 03:18 AM.


#16
jaxkels

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Okay, so I reread some of the manga, and I guess it was different than what I had thought. I apologize for not understanding that, though I'm still going to stand by that the people arguing it is going about the wrong way. Dismissing others' status as a decent human being of decent standing when they are trying to understand is : /, and I don't get that.

 

Kyouya is undoubtedly abusive as a real person. In the manga, this is shown as alright, because he's seen as a positive influence on what Erika wants 'deep down'. (as a fictional work, this is possible, but imagining this situation in real life is a terrible one). In the weight loss example, Erika wants a firm slap on the wrist, so that she doesn't allow herself to slack. But in real life, this is just Kyouya giving her conditional love only when she adheres to his standards, and despising her when she doesn't make it. He's constantly demeaning her and her status as a human being, and making her feel like she's below him. Kyouya doesn't really seem like he knows his behavior is bad, but not all abusers really deliberately try to abuse their partners.

 

Err, if it's alright for me to continue, Erika doesn't seem like the face of abuse, but people who are abused don't always seem like they are being abused. Take especially small children for example, whose parents abuse them. They'll still stick around and think their parents are the best things since sliced bread because of their naivete and innocence, regardless of how they're beat or treated. They'll try to fix their behavior, rather than thinking their parents' behavior is at fault.

 

Anyway, I don't really know too much about abuse either tbh, and I only reread one chapter, and  i guess I'd have to say Kyouya is abusive. Sorry about retconning my words, as well. Anyway... I know I'm dumping all of this, but I'd rather not argue about it, but I'm more than welcome to criticism in my thinking and what I've said.

 

At first, what I got from this is that I cannot view this manga beyond being a manga. I'm not really sure if I should even do that. As a manga/as fiction, it has to be clear on what it's trying to portray, and the subtleties are to be clean (as in no need for crazy theories and stuff, not that there's any here). Anyway, the point is that if it's abuse, it has to be clearly abuse. Kyouya would have to show the signs of an abusive partner (available on the links I've posted above), and Erika would have to be more of a victim. So I was thinking that if it doesn't fit "abusive" why not just call him "mean" or something.

 

Then I got into more thinking, specifically from this "Kyouya doesn't really seem like he knows his behavior is bad...". I also remember him being 'mean' to his male friends so it seems to be normal for him to be like that. And I think I remember his sister treating him poorly...

--

 

I'm really sorry guys, I can't collect my thoughts properly (I think the first two paragraphs barely makes sense) so I'll just skip to the conclusion I got here:

 

Answer to the topic "Sata Kyouya is abusive?" is "Yes, he's verbally abusive... probably unintentionally so." I can't believe I missed that in the first place. I even said "Tsundere Prince" [Tsundere(Kugi-type/Type-A?) = abusive...?]. It seems I'm too used to seeing this that it just felt normal.

 

Now, does applying verbal abuse in a relationship paint a picture of an abusive relationship (by word meaning, I'm guessing yes) or is it that it's just verbal abuse in a relationship?

 

To extend the discussion just for the sake of it (since I got my answer):

-How much of a problem is this?

-Can we expect things to change in this manga? (lol)

-Am I 'over-simplifying' the abuse by putting it cleanly under the "verbal abuse" category?



#17
Yokohama

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At first, what I got from this is that I cannot view this manga beyond being a manga. I'm not really sure if I should even do that. As a manga/as fiction, it has to be clear on what it's trying to portray, and the subtleties are to be clean (as in no need for crazy theories and stuff, not that there's any here). Anyway, the point is that if it's abuse, it has to be clearly abuse. Kyouya would have to show the signs of an abusive partner (available on the links I've posted above), and Erika would have to be more of a victim. So I was thinking that if it doesn't fit "abusive" why not just call him "mean" or something.
 
Then I got into more thinking, specifically from this "Kyouya doesn't really seem like he knows his behavior is bad...". I also remember him being 'mean' to his male friends so it seems to be normal for him to be like that. And I think I remember his sister treating him poorly...
--
 
I'm really sorry guys, I can't collect my thoughts properly (I think the first two paragraphs barely makes sense) so I'll just skip to the conclusion I got here:
 
Answer to the topic "Sata Kyouya is abusive?" is "Yes, he's verbally abusive... probably unintentionally so." I can't believe I missed that in the first place. I even said "Tsundere Prince" [Tsundere(Kugi-type/Type-A?) = abusive...?]. It seems I'm too used to seeing this that it just felt normal.
 
Now, does applying verbal abuse in a relationship paint a picture of an abusive relationship (by word meaning, I'm guessing yes) or is it that it's just verbal abuse in a relationship?
 
To extend the discussion just for the sake of it (since I got my answer):
-How much of a problem is this?
-Can we expect things to change in this manga? (lol)
-Am I 'over-simplifying' the abuse by putting it cleanly under the "verbal abuse" category?


I can't really answer your later question but viewing things purely as fictional is fine. Dont worry about enjoying manga, even if that behavior doesn't go over well in real life. Others just won't like it for that very reason. Tsundere isn't inherently an abusive trait, or at least what most tsunderes looks like now? It's just more or less dishonest nowadays i think?

Besides, there's a good border between teasing and abuse. Erika knows he's teasing most the time and that's fine, it's just that he's also sometimes serious, and he and erika place erika below him. although the best case would be for erika to get out of the relationship irl, kyouya is still trying to get better and their relationship is still improving. And in the manga, he is still meant to be seen as a positive influence on erika. The manga is more or less, although flawed in how it shows it, depicting an improving relationship with shoujo drama. People get better irl too. I'm kinda worried about you. Don't doubt yourself too much or worry too much about this. :D

#18
jaxkels

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Tsundere isn't inherently an abusive trait, or at least what most tsunderes looks like now? It's just more or less dishonest nowadays i think?

Besides, there's a good border between teasing and abuse. Erika knows he's teasing most the time and that's fine, it's just that he's also sometimes serious, and he and erika place erika below him. although the best case would be for erika to get out of the relationship irl, kyouya is still trying to get better and their relationship is still improving. And in the manga, he is still meant to be seen as a positive influence on erika. The manga is more or less, although flawed in how it shows it, depicting an improving relationship with shoujo drama. People get better irl too. I'm kinda worried about you. Don't doubt yourself too much or worry too much about this. :D

 

Tsundere is one of my favorite 'archetypes' so I really don't see "abusive" (otherwise I probably wouldn't like it) Although when I think of abusive tsundere, I think of Kugi-types... just Louise really. I just brought it up because that's the first connection I could have gotten to get to "verbally abusive".
 
I do wonder, though, if having a "sharp tongue" 'automatically' means abusive. I'm still considering 'intent' here, although I suppose a victim wouldn't care about that (even if it's just teasing). And if it's accepted as normal within a circle (and there's no victim), how much of a problem is it really? (note: this is just for discussion's sake). Again, I feel like there has to be a "victim" there, and Erika almost always seem comically happy to play that role. And since the manga is pretty straightforward(?) I don't think we should look "between the lines" too much.
 
Just to clarify to viewers in case my thoughts seem contradictory: "Kyouya is verbally abusive. That's one of his traits... that his friends seem to have thought of as normal(?). How much of a negative is it considering that the manga itself doesn't seem to make a big deal out it?
 
Also, I still think that both characters got lucky with each other. With the given information (that Erika is kinda tough, and that Kyouya will probably get better, etc.), I think I can be optimistic about this fictional pair. Erika might do well keeping the relationship even if it's not the 'best' scenario. The manga has shown that there are other people who like Erika so she won't be left alone but she could get unlucky or just revert back to her "Wolf" self (which means she'll get into trouble again). Kyouya will probably have it worse though, in case if a breakup... Just sharing possible scenarios, excuse me for "straying" from the topic.  


#19
Yokohama

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Tsundere is one of my favorite 'archetypes' so I really don't see "abusive" (otherwise I probably wouldn't like it) Although when I think of abusive tsundere, I think of Kugi-types... just Louise really. I just brought it up because that's the first connection I could have gotten to get to "verbally abusive".

I do wonder, though, if having a "sharp tongue" 'automatically' means abusive. I'm still considering 'intent' here, although I suppose a victim wouldn't care about that (even if it's just teasing). And if it's accepted as normal within a circle (and there's no victim), how much of a problem is it really? (note: this is just for discussion's sake). Again, I feel like there has to be a "victim" there, and Erika almost always seem comically happy to play that role. And since the manga is pretty straightforward(?) I don't think we should look "between the lines" too much.

Just to clarify to viewers in case my thoughts seem contradictory: "Kyouya is verbally abusive. That's one of his traits... that his friends seem to have thought of as normal(?). How much of a negative is it considering that the manga itself doesn't seem to make a big deal out it?

Also, I still think that both characters got lucky with each other. With the given information (that Erika is kinda tough, and that Kyouya will probably get better, etc.), I think I can be optimistic about this fictional pair. Erika might do well keeping the relationship even if it's not the 'best' scenario. The manga has shown that there are other people who like Erika so she won't be left alone but she could get unlucky or just revert back to her "Wolf" self (which means she'll get into trouble again). Kyouya will probably have it worse though, in case if a breakup... Just sharing possible scenarios, excuse me for "straying" from the topic.

I have no idea what the difference between tsunderes are, or what kugi types are... but yeah! I don't think of most tsunderes as abusive either.

There isn't a problem with teasing if everyone's in on the joke. But there's a difference between making fun of someone/being made fun of and having fun with someone. There is no victim if it's just a joke (and everyone understands it's a joke because being made fun of for others' amusement and being teased+having fun with them is entirely different). I do think intent is important, because that's just a possible abusive situation coming from a misunderstanding, and people will probably want to fix things together. A victim is no different from any other happy person. People just sometimes land in bad situations.

Erika sometimes sincerely gets down from kyouya's remarks, iirc. And she seems to honestly believe that she's beneath kyouya because of the way kyouya and her talk. He belittles her a lot. Erika is easygoing naturally though, so she's willing to excuse it. victims don't always look their part, or act like they're being abused all the time. irl there are a lot of people who are often too-willing to excuse their abusers.

Mangas are made by flawed people too. Sometimes the creator might understand perfectly, or they might not understand abusive relationships themselves. I'm not sure what you meant, but I don't think Kyouya's behavior is a problem in the manga, and he's actually meant to be seen as a positive influence, but if it happened in real life, that behavior is pretty bad. He's just too mean and demeaning all the time.

The topic is interesting, i think it's better meant for the comments section since here's a little big with everything else, and the latest chapter might be leading up to some big plot point like that :P

i dont wanna just drop off without warning, so i'm formally announcing im probably gonna go back to lurking. I'm honestly not too used to discussions. I hope you get the answers to your other questions ^^

Edited by Yokohama, 30 January 2015 - 06:02 AM.


#20
jaxkels

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1. I have no idea what the difference between tsunderes are, or what kugi types are... but yeah! I don't think of most tsunderes as abusive either.

2. Erika sometimes sincerely gets down from kyouya's remarks, iirc. And she seems to honestly believe that she's beneath kyouya because of the way kyouya and her talk. He belittles her a lot. Erika is easygoing naturally though, so she's willing to excuse it. victims don't always look their part, or act like they're being abused all the time. irl there are a lot of people who are often too-willing to excuse their abusers.

 

1. For readers who'd want to be more familiar with "tsundere": 'Kugi-type' is the word I used to categorize tsundere character who have been voiced by Kugimiya Rie (i.e Aisaka Taiga, Louise dela Valliere). Of course, the characters are distinct enough from each other but there share a certain vibe to them. Also, I think tvtropes has a good page for tsundere, I think it categorizes 'Kugi-type' under "Harsh".

 

2. It seems that I'm not remembering the story as much as I want. The part I remember the most in this case is that 'weight loss' chapter, and I already stated what I thought of it (whether it is "right" or not). Realizing that I'm not remembering much of Erika being "down", it makes me curious about what other people think about this: "What if Erika just over-thinks sometimes?" and "What do people think of Erika as an 'actor' and not a 'victim', in this case?"