Vagabond

Can you tards stop posting a thousand character long post that doesn't even belong on the comment section, make a thread if you want or just make a fucking wiki if a thread isnt enough

How about you stop complaining and just ignore it? Better yet, ignore the users who post said walls of text that so upset your itty-bitty temparament. Batoto’s software offers that option and it should prevent their posts from being displayed to you.
 

Yes, it was - AND IS - a basic tenet of Roman Catholicism that if you die without accepting Christ the Savior, you go straight to hell. [...] His mom is going to hell too, ignorance is not an excuse. That lady's dead husband knew about Christianity and didn't convert before dying. He's going to hell. All the unbaptized ancestors of the Japanese are also going to hell. Plain and simple. This is exactly and specifically what Catholic Doctrine has always said about the path to Salvation.

You know surprisingly little about your faith considering that you are allegedly a Catholic yourself. Being born before Christ didn’t mean that you were immediately condemned to hell. To quote the Catechism (633-634):

“Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

"The gospel was preached even to the dead." The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.”
(emphasis in bold is mine)

In addition to the passage in Epistle to the Hebrews 11:6, this has traditionally been used to argue that those who sought God even before Christ’s birth could obtain salvation. In other words, this might very well be true of these Japanese ancestors you spoke of, too. Your claim that all born before Jesus automatically earned eternal damnation is nonsense and has never been the official doctrine of the Catholic Church, not even in the 16th century. Same thing for the truly “ignorant”.

Happy now fucker? I am pretty sure that your three lines of crap add so much to anyone who reads them that I humbly followed your wise advice

Will Musahi ever reach town? Find out next time on Dragon Ball Z!

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I fucking lost it.

Also, holy shit, the nips really just don't get Christianity. I understand the scene was meant to display Matahachi's love for his mother and everything, but that priest was almost a caricature...

1. Nips is a racist term. Stop using it.

2. The main branch of Christianity actively spreading its teachings in Japan between the 15th and 18th centuries was Roman Catholicism. The Portuguese were the first Christians to arrive in Japan and therefore the ones who brought in their priests to convert people. Until the 18th century, Japanese called western clothing as "padre" clothing thanks to this. Many Japanese people influenced by Christianity became converts of Catholicism. One such person was the lady Hosokawa Gracia, daughter of Akechi Mitsuhide (the killer of Oda Nobunaga) and wife of Buzen-no-kami Hosokawa Tadaoki, the lord of Kokura since 1600. As such, to honor his late wife's memory (Gracia had herself killed in 1600 when Ishida Mitsunari tried to use her as hostage to obtain Tadaoki's support) Tadaoki and the Hosokawa clan allowed Catholic missionaries free rein in Kokura until the prohibition of Christianity under Shogun Tokugawa Hidetada in 1614. This is the same Hosokawa Tadaoki who's currently Kojiro's boss and is in the process of employing Musashi as of chapter 326 of Vagabond. Being a Catholic myself, I need to point out that until the Second Vatican Council the Catholic Church specifically encourages missionaries to propound the Doctrine of Salvation in exactly the way the priest in chapter 325 did. Yes, it was - AND IS - a basic tenet of Roman Catholicism that if you die without accepting Christ the Savior, you go straight to hell. The only "exception" we accept in doctrine is in Vatican II's Lumen gentium 8 allowing that "many elements of sanctification and of truth can be found outside its (the Church's) visible confines." However, this does not in any way or form modify the very basic tenet of the Doctrine of Salvation. It simply means that the Church accepts the possibility that some (incomplete) form of the requirements of Salvation can be found outside the Church. However, the Lumen gentium 14 also points out that, "Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved." This statement specifically closes the supposed loophole that outsiders seem to believe exists in Catholic doctrine post Vatican II. Yes, the Church accepts today that there might be elements of Salvation outside the Church, but unless you convert to Catholicism, you go to hell! Also, the statement is not there to be inverted. A lot of people inside and outside the Church ignorant of proper doctrine seem to think that "knowing" is the operative word, meaning people ignorant of Christianity could therefore be saved. NO THEY CAN'T! That's not what it says! The statement is there to clarify very specifically that there is no alternative path whatsoever and that Lumen gentium 8 does not in any way or form allows for any alternative paths. In the context of Vagabond, then, Matahachi got it all wrong. Heck, to begin with he's familiar with Christianity, specifically Catholicism. Therefore he's going to hell. His mom is going to hell too, ignorance is not an excuse. That lady's dead husband knew about Christianity and didn't convert before dying. He's going to hell. All the unbaptized ancestors of the Japanese are also going to hell. Plain and simple. This is exactly and specifically what Catholic Doctrine has always said about the path to Salvation.

3. There was almost no Protestant missionary activity in Japan until the 19th century. There were two reasons for this. The first was that the Dutch and British emissaries to Japan arrived only after the relatively intolerant Toyotomi Hideyoshi had succeeded Oda Nobunaga. Whilst Nobunaga had been a shrewd and ruthless atheist quite willing to exploit Jesuit and Fransiscan naivete to gain access to their weapons and knowledge, Hideyoshi was a staunch traditionalist who - ironically for one of his position - actually respected and revered the Emperor. He rightly identified Christianity as a threat to Japanese traditional religions. He was already stuck with potential Christian rebellion incited by the Fransiscans, so he felt no need to allow even more Christians access to his dominions. Hideyoshi was particularly alarmed by the continued flirtation of the powerful and ambitious northern daimyo Date Masamune with both branches of Christianity. As a result Hideyoshi was tempted several times to outlaw Christianity altogether. His hostility was noticed by the emissaries who concluded that the mighty trifecta of Gold, Glory, God could probably do better without its third G. The second reason was that when the even more traditionalist Tokugawa Ieyasu became shogun of Japan, he strictly enforced a no-missionary policy on both newcomer European nations, and both signed treaties accepting the limitations demanded by Ieyasu. This meant that Dutch and British missionaries (what? You thought Europeans respected treaties?) arrived in Japan right smack-dab in the middle of the most brutal anti-Christian persecution in the 17th century under Ieyasu's successor Hidetada. Hidetada had a personal reason for persecuting Christians, that being his brother Matsudaira Tadateru's own flirtation with Christianity. Tadateru was more popular than Hidetada and was Ieyasu's preferred heir at one point (Hidetada had screwed up royally in the prelude to Sekigahara, straining father-son relationship until Ieyasu's death). Most importantly, Tadateru was the son-in-law of the powerful Date Masamune, who by 1610 had basically become to Ieyasu what Ieyasu himself had been to Toyotomi Hideyoshi. When in 1615 Matsudaira Tadateru refused to mobilize his forces at speed to support Hidetada's Winter Siege of Osaka, Hidetada relieved him of command and started depriving him of subjects. It was around this time that Hidetada realized that the majority of Matsudaira Tadateru's supporters and the vast majority of surviving Toyotomi supporters were Christians. It was probably not a coincidence that the edict signed in 1614 started being enforced strictly in 1616. It was into this environment of extreme distrust and brutality that Protestant missionaries first discovered themselves in Japan. As is common with their ilk, they took the rational path and stopped their activities until things cooled down again in the 19th century. In the meantime, Catholics were being martyred left and right. In any case, what this basically means is that when Japanese people today think of Christianity, their traditional ideas would be far more influenced by the Catholics than Protestants, and you can see this clearly in most manga and anime, although it's often clear that most authors have no clue about what Catholicism is like. The best depiction of Catholicism I've seen in manga and anime is actually the faith-centered dialogues in (of all things) Maria Holic....

4. Therefore, taking 2 and 3 into account, ironically Vagabond GOT IT RIGHT in its depiction of a 16th century Christian missionary operating in Japan. He would have been a Catholic espousing the strict, pure, Catholic form of the Doctrine of Salvation unadulterated by later innovations.

If there are people today being caricatures of Christianity saying people are going to hell for liking the wrong sex, for being the wrong color or believing in the wrong god, [...]

In this day and age, where education about language is free via online, and isn't time consuming if you're not retarded, I still don't see why people don't learn the language of the picture books they read.

[...]

 
I fucking lost it.

Also, holy shit, the nips really just don't get Christianity. I understand the scene was meant to display Matahachi's love for his mother and everything, but that priest was almost a caricature...

If there are people today being caricatures of Christianity saying people are going to hell for liking the wrong sex, for being the wrong color or believing in the wrong god, what makes you think back then it wasn't as such or worse? Besides you have to think of the language barrier, this priest could have been coming off as rude when he did not intend to. Then again, I have no reason to believe he would try to put it politely that if you don't believe in god you go to hell, they were trying really hard to convert people.

Since he is blind he won't judge her based on her appearance

But if you like it or not, it all goes or falls on only one thing, and that is their personal or group interest (aside from official licensed and fast translation groups).

They can do whatever they like, I do not deny that. I was merely trying to explain why people complain. The reason is that when you put your personal interests before those of the community for which you are scanlating, you should expect that very same community to be discontent.

Still waiting for an explanation of why there are two different scanlation groups working on one series now. That’s a waste of manpower, you fools.

Maybe one doesn't like the others translations/speed/quality, or maybe they like to translate a mange they like. 

In this day and age, where education about language is free via online, and isn't time consuming if you're not retarded, I still don't see why people don't learn the language of the picture books they read.

Scanlation is done for the community. This same community will benefit a lot more if you worked on something that isn't regularly scanlated. It's only normal for people to be irked when you put your personal interests (you enjoy working on this particular series or whatever) before those of the community, especially since people don't really have any issues with HappyScans!, or at least that's my impression.

Actually yes and also no... I agree with you about community benefitting more from scanlators focusing more on bigger sphere of mangas especially those that were dropped or not scanlated at all. But if you like it or not, it all goes or falls on only one thing, and that is their personal or group interest (aside from official licensed and fast translation groups). And since they have interest in some particular series, there is always bigger chance that they will scanlate volume bonuses, author's oneshots, new series, something else from same magazine, or genre and so...

Scanlation is done for the community. This same community will benefit a lot more if you worked on something that isn't regularly scanlated. It's only normal for people to be irked when you put your personal interests (you enjoy working on this particular series or whatever) before those of the community, especially since people don't really have any issues with HappyScans!, or at least that's my impression.

Still waiting for an explanation of why there are two different scanlation groups working on one series now. That’s a waste of manpower, you fools.

We can't work on a series we like? I don't care if someone else does it too, I just enjoy working on this one. You're free to not read it, it's not for anyone in particular that I translated it. And I still decide how I use my time, not anyone else.

Still waiting for an explanation of why there are two different scanlation groups working on one series now. That’s a waste of manpower, you fools.

Buffoon strikes back

Where can I read the first 22 volumes?

You could support the author and localization by buying the english books. If you don't want to a quick google search will surely lead you to plenty of websites that have all the chapters.

Where can I read the first 22 volumes?

http://www.thespectrum.net/manga_scans/?preview=manga_Vagabond

I have absolutely no fucking clue who the fuck any of these characters are.

Who is this guy that Kojiro meets? I forgot.

I think you should re-read the whole thing. I really recommend the english volumes (especially the VIZBIG releases), they're great and it would be a good opportunity to read the whole story once more.

Ahahahaha Matahachi showed up again.This guy is just unbelievable xD

Also epic foreshadowing

I'm shipping KojiroxKaede now. That poke was adorbs. Since he is blind he won't judge her based on her appearance plus she is going to be his teacher.

He's deaf not blind

Who is this guy that Kojiro meets? I forgot.

It's matahachi. A character present since the very first chapter of Vagabond.

I have absolutely no fucking clue who the fuck any of these characters are.

Well, you should read the entire story again. This deaf Kojirou was pretty much the third main character besides the vagabond and his childhood friend.