Momoyama Kyoudai

Guys, let's not be too hard on Arima. He's gotta have a tough time what with HIS LEGS BEING MADE OF RUBBER AND ALL.

definitely done on purpose. arima went from being cool 2-3 chapters ago to being dumb this chapter.

pretty sure he could've found a better way to handle that.

gotta keep the drama going, amirite? better than talking out issues like normal people. /s.

definitely done on purpose. arima went from being cool 2-3 chapters ago to being dumb this chapter.

pretty sure he could've found a better way to handle that.

Yaaay--uh, what?!  Boooo!!!

(meanwhile, there are these things called spoiler tags.  you put a [ and then the word "spoiler" and then a ], then the megaspoiler you have to get off your chest, then almost the same thing except with [/ at the front.  It's easy!)

Seriously, what the hell, man? You'd better have a good explanation for this.

Tch. Bastard

ok that was pretty awesome, that lady with her butler shot.

The whole "lol Chihiro can't do anything right" thing is starting to get really old.

Awesome chapter, Umeken sure is a guy with many interests! Especially that last panel.

AHHH thanks for the update!! Jealous Arima doe... *_* ALSO UMEKEN... IM NOT ENTIRELY OPPOSED TO HIM BEING W CHIHIRO--

Thanks for the new chapter.

well, I like how Arima handled everything.

although having a seemingly new love rival appear isn't really that great. Just waiting for the development of how they get together now...hopefully it doesn't drag out too long.

it was lovely how they resolved the problem and stopped fighting. cake works wonders too

Remember to enclose long paragraphs in spoiler tags because we don't want mods to sneak in and having to do it themselves and give out warning points.

Spoiler

I was merely trying to point out that acolyte's blanket statement of "-nothing- really wrong with incest" was teeechnically incorrect in certain ways (aka, i admit to nitpicking)... and then I ended up in a research binge on the topic and wanted to share my fascinating findings lol.

Dat last page.

This is such a good shoujo manga~

Re: Purple Library Guy and holy_demon
Of course I understand that domestic violence and genetic defects problems exist outside of incest situations, that not all laws are updated or perfect, and yes, global movement has greatly reduced the genetic mixing problem; and I did point out that risks between cousins are overall reduced.

I was merely trying to point out that acolyte's blanket statement of "-nothing- really wrong with incest" was teeechnically incorrect in certain ways (aka, i admit to nitpicking)... and then I ended up in a research binge on the topic and wanted to share my fascinating findings lol.

(But, mild note to PLG, the Amish community as another modern day exception/example of multiple generation, stationary, relatively small population, genetic inbreeding to a sliiight degree? Though I'm sure they have the incest/marriage laws well in place to keep genetics as diluted as possible, they are listed as having some genetic condition specific to their community in one of those wiki links I had. Jus to cover all bases. Your main point, of course, still stands.)

No harm done i hope? ;
(Yey for smart convos over manga haha)


Back on the topic of the manga, heee~ the new chapter of cuteness and haru-nii -lied- to a crying chihiro pfft tsk tsk (=ω=)

Genetically messing up the next generations is not a problem?

Cousins have a lower risk of this than direct siblings, but still a higher rate of genetic defects (same risks as an old age couple 40+ trying to have kids, more if there was previous in-family marriage). (snippage)

Technically, what these the characters in this manga should have fallen under is the Westermarck Effect, in which children who are raised together from an early enough age (0-6 years old) do not become attracted to each other. But then, there would be no story so lol, carry on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect

 

 

Well, effects like the one you mention are generally statistical; a more accurate summary would include the word "usually" . . . otherwise, there would never be real-life cases of incest between children raised together from young, and there certainly are.  So the manga isn't unrealistic just for portraying such attraction unless it is depicted as the norm, which it isn't.

 

As to the genetic side . . . yes, incest leads to an increased chance of birth defects.  Yes, that increase is very small, definitely smaller than lots of things which are accepted or not even worried about in modern society, such as, as you say, having children at age 40+ (increasingly common), having certain genetic markers, or simply living near any of a myriad of very common sources of pollution.

 

Where incest causes problems is not so much in the immediate term (brother has children with sister --> Bad Things) but in the long term (close relatives breed together over many generations).  Long term inbreeding causes serious problems.  I think one reason the incest taboo is tending to fade nowadays relative to the past is simply that our societies are so much more mobile and mixed, most people living in large population centres and so forth.  Through most of history people lived in small communities, had little contact outside them, left them relatively rarely, and this stayed the case for generations on end.  Inbreeding was a serious risk, and on top of incest taboos a whole host of customs evolved to try to deal with the problem, things like traditions of marrying into nearby tribes rather than your own.  But it's largely irrelevant now--nobody's going to do multiple generations of incest, and the pool of mates people are choosing from is much less closely related to them on average than it's ever been in history.  So unless you happen to live in a small stable secluded village (in which case it's likely you don't read manga and won't be corrupted), the incest taboo has become a solution to a dead social problem.

TL;DR = To be clear, I do not mean that it's okay to discriminate against people based on who they love, I just want to point out that "there's nothing really wrong with incest" is false biologically and legally, and that, in the real world outside of anime/manga fandom, "incest" has more of an association with criminal sexual abuse or arranged marriages than with romance, which can account for part of the stigma against it.

 

There's a lot of sexual abuse, domestic violence, arranged marriage, and high rate of failure (divorce) associated with normal marriage. It still happened, and is perfectly legal

 

There's a lot of genetic disease as well as birth-transmitted disease that has much higher chance of birth defects than incest. You don't see the laws banning people with those condition from having children (lest marriage)

 

My point is that laws are never meant to be consistent, logical, nor fair. It's never meant to be perfectly followed, but interpreted, practiced, and circumvented. You live according to the laws, not letting the laws dictate your life.

 

if incest marriage is banned, they can stay single for life while maintaining sexual relationship. If they want to have kids, don't register the father's name.

And don't forget that there's nothing really wrong with incest - it's looked down upon and there's been proponents of it producing children with defective genetic traits - but remember that in the past, in-family marriage is pretty common to keep the lineage.

 

Genetically messing up the next generations is not a problem?

Cousins have a lower risk of this than direct siblings, but still a higher rate of genetic defects (same risks as an old age couple 40+ trying to have kids, more if there was previous in-family marriage). Also, just because it was done in the past or even is still in other cultures does not mean it doesn't cause problems, socially acceptable or not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Biological_aspects

 

Arguing socially even, it depends on what culture, and what level of incest you're talking about. Incest is in fact wrong, according to whichever country you are in. You cannot just say that incest is okay Because of Love~! <3 and think that it'll all go well. Laws are laws, whether you agree with them or not.

 

TL;DR = To be clear, I do not mean that it's okay to discriminate against people based on who they love, I just want to point out that "there's nothing really wrong with incest" is false biologically and legally, and that, in the real world outside of anime/manga fandom, "incest" has more of an association with criminal sexual abuse or arranged marriages than with romance, which can account for part of the stigma against it.

 

Technically, what these the characters in this manga should have fallen under is the Westermarck Effect, in which children who are raised together from an early enough age (0-6 years old) do not become attracted to each other. But then, there would be no story so lol, carry on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect

 

 

other related wiki articles (the more we know and all yes? =w=b )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain this poor dude's family web always amuses me. ahaha...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction <-- the opposite of the Westermarck Effect, but based on the related couple first meeting as adults.

There is one public case of consensual adult incest between siblings in Germany (grew up separately from early on), happy adults, but then, three of their four children have birth defects. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest#Between_consenting_adults

Say what? Oo In small or close families maybe, but in overly large and somewhat distant families you can't even know all of your cousins. You'd probably only know after something happened. Also, the fact that you know that person through most of your life and thus has seen all those awkward phases/know what is really like is the biggest problem in my opinion. "" Also, genetically speaking isn't it already distant enough? Unless the parents that are siblings are twins, or really alike (although there is the inactive part), or then an already risky dna prone to rare diseases; chances are you are more than different enough, no? @_@

 

Here too. Actually there's an ongoing joke about how "you always have a cousin..." Although I have only heard it around in boys' talk oõ

 

And don't forget that there's nothing really wrong with incest - it's looked down upon and there's been proponents of it producing children with defective genetic traits - but remember that in the past, in-family marriage is pretty common to keep the lineage.

OMG!!!!! I know it's only been 7 chapters and the author don't want to end it yet BUT all the misunderstanding and over-thinking are starting to gets on my nerve.

Heh.  This is the inevitable pas-de-deux for such quasi-incest relationships in manga.  After the step or two forward, the inevitable step back is here.  And yet, even in happening it triggers the psychological development, the awareness that sets up for the next approach.  Ah, l'amour!

I don't really get this why do they overthink everything real people would not care about the fact that they are not siblings and just cousins and cousins and siblings are not that different they are still blood related.

Say what? Oo

In small or close families maybe, but in overly large and somewhat distant families you can't even know all of your cousins.
You'd probably only know after something happened.
Also, the fact that you know that person through most of your life and thus has seen all those awkward phases/know what is really like is the biggest problem in my opinion. ""

Also, genetically speaking isn't it already distant enough? Unless the parents that are siblings are twins, or really alike (although there is the inactive part), or then an already risky dna prone to rare diseases; chances are you are more than different enough, no? @_@

Cousins can get married in japan

Here too.
Actually there's an ongoing joke about how "you always have a cousin..."
Although I have only heard it around in boys' talk oõ

OMG!!!!! I know it's only been 7 chapters and the author don't want to end it yet BUT all the misunderstanding and over-thinking are starting to gets on my nerve.