Sangokushi

does anyone know the relashonship between sangokushi characters and kingdom characters?

Been a while, thanks Hox!

Taste my ballls! Uh... I mean wrath....

I downloaded all the chapters to my tablet and marathoned this manga, and I gotta say, This Manga Is Addictive and Awesome. As someone who knew shit about the three kingdoms period or R3K, this manga lays it out so that it is easy to understand yet it is also addictively well structured. Once I started reading, I always wanted to continue reading, yet it was also easy to pick up from where it left off

 

TBH. I only started reading this since I wanted to read Ravages of Time but somebody else said that one had to know the basics of R3K to be able to follow it's alternative perspective.

 

Question, is the manga finished or will continue until the founding of the Jin dynasty or somewhere in between. I don't know if i should begin reading RoT or wait for the remaining chapters, if they exist.

I am wondering, was the historical Cao Cao and his generals that really as bad at startegy as they seem to be in the manga ?

 

on Cao Cao wikipedia page they mention "Although he is often portrayed as a cruel and merciless tyrant, Cao Cao has also been praised as a brilliant ruler and military genius who treated his subordinates like his family. "

 

But in the manga it's really the opposite of "military genius" as nearly every time Cao Cao and his troops are making a move, himself and his generals are all nearly killed in a very bad tactical move, an ambush due to their lack of caution or some other big mistake .

 

The official history records were written by West Qin, a successor to Cao family's Wei, so they favorably look to Cao Cao, unlike R3K, a fiction based on historical facts and mostly forklores.

 

However, even so, it is said that Cao Cao lost many battles, often by ambushes. To Dong Zhao, Lu Bu, Yuan Shao, Zhang Xiu, Yuan Shang, Sun Quan, and Liu Bei, to name a few.

 

However, Cao Cao's military genius lies in strategic intelligence and logistics; he eventually crushed all his enemies except for Sun and Liu.

 

 

P.S. Actually, Cao Cao was a master of deceptions and ambushes himself. That's how he defeated Lu Bu, Yuan Shao (at a great disadvantage), Liu Bao, or Ma Chao.

That's true, it did.

 

If I recall, the Cao family and the Yuan family were rivals for at least a few generations. They were also friends. Wish the author of this would've showed that to a greater degree, otherwise it was sort of anti-climatic.

Cao Cao already showed moments of brilliance earlier on in the manga all throughout his rise to power, his advice to Cao Ren on the defense of Nanjun, conflicts with Ma Chao, and his political machinations in the meanwhile. It's just that we readers equally get to see his failures as well.

 

The only thing this manga really glossed over about Cao Cao is his showdown with Yuan Shao.

Yes, that's the problem with a lot of China history, it's near impossible to find an impartial source, as depending on which faction an historian was belonging to, if he wanted to keep his head on his shoulder he was forced to write in a way it made his own masters shine.

But that said considering Cao Cao gains in territory through wars, i really doubt he was the military inept leader that manga (and so R3K then) is making him to be
(though chapter 229 gives him some credits at least)

I am wondering, was the historical Cao Cao and his generals that really as bad at startegy as they seem to be in the manga ?

 

on Cao Cao wikipedia page they mention "Although he is often portrayed as a cruel and merciless tyrant, Cao Cao has also been praised as a brilliant ruler and military genius who treated his subordinates like his family. "

 

But in the manga it's really the opposite of "military genius" as nearly every time Cao Cao and his troops are making a move, himself and his generals are all nearly killed in a very bad tactical move, an ambush due to their lack of caution or some other big mistake .

I think it depends on the source material you look at. Sangokushi is based on Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, whose author was instrumental in advancing the perception of Liu Bei as the embodiment of the virtuous leader, and Cao Cao as, well, the complete opposite.

 

Consequently, Cao Cao is depicted similar in R3K and Sangokushi (and the historical records R3K was based on). Strategically and militarily, he's fairly inept, and continuously falls for whatever battle strategies Liu Bei and Kongming are planning at the time. In the novel, though, Cao Cao is portrayed as having a fairly good sense of interpersonal or social intelligence, if I remember correctly. For example he is able to figure out through people's behaviors if they are plotting against him, and he almost manages to get one of the main protagonists to join him by figuring out the person's interests, and meeting them. The manga seems to capture some of that, but not completely. The two Red Cliff movies, on the other hand, show Cao Cao as having significant personal and strategic martial prowess, but completely lacking in social intelligence.

 

Other sources, such as those written during dynasties purported to have a blood relation to Cao Cao, apparently portray him as a much more effective military and civil leader. He must have been at least halfway competent, to be able to seize and hold power like that. But ultimately, Cao Cao's level of military aptitude seems to depend on what you're reading or watching.

I am wondering, was the historical Cao Cao and his generals that really as bad at startegy as they seem to be in the manga ?

 

on Cao Cao wikipedia page they mention "Although he is often portrayed as a cruel and merciless tyrant, Cao Cao has also been praised as a brilliant ruler and military genius who treated his subordinates like his family. "

 

But in the manga it's really the opposite of "military genius" as nearly every time Cao Cao and his troops are making a move, himself and his generals are all nearly killed in a very bad tactical move, an ambush due to their lack of caution or some other big mistake .

There's also the fear factor at play. It's actually been shown in experiments that the primary emotion driving people to chase after a fleeing enemy is surprisingly fear instead of bloodlust.

I'd be interested in seeing those study results, just out of curiosity. Your explanation seems to make sense, though. Seems like the mangaka actually captures some of that, as well. For example, during the battle where Zhang Fei (or maybe it was Guan Yu) holds off Cao Cao's forces on the bridge while retreating, Cao Cao is the pursuer, but he shows even more wariness of an attack than usual, which at times even borders on outright fear.

The majority of battle deaths occur when one side flees. However, it's hard to stop one's hunting instincts when someone shows you their backs after a hard fight. See MMA fighters for example: some continue to ground-n-pound even though its evident to us audience that the other guy is knocked out already.

 

If you play the game Mount & Blade, you'll see it's easier to kill enemies while they're retreating.

 

The art in that strategy is feigning disorder within your ranks so that it will appear to be a rout. Too orderly and it will look like luring into a new battlefield.

 

There's also the fear factor at play. It's actually been shown in experiments that the primary emotion driving people to chase after a fleeing enemy is surprisingly fear instead of bloodlust. There has not been a conclusive explanation as to why this is so. One attempt to explain this is that, after a long, hard fight, the biggest rational drive on the winning side is to not have to repeat the fight. In other words, the winners, having become the side with the most to lose, are then driven by their own fear of losing what they've gained. Hence they try to conclusively end the losers' ability to continue or repeat the fight.

 

This may also be the reason why feigned retreat tactics work. See, in an actual rout, individuals on the fleeing side lose their strength faster than their pursuers because they lose most of their reasoning abilities and control of how they spend their stored energy. This is why casualties tend to be high, and also why we hear stories about how soldiers on the losing side would fall down exhausted and beg for mercy when in fact they've discarded the heavy equipment their pursuers still have. When the retreat is feigned, however, the desperation and loss of reasoning simply doesn't happen, and the "routed" side can easily reposition themselves when ordered to. The pursuers, being driven mostly by fear, would have been running on an adrenaline rush. When they realize what's happened, the rush subsides and fatigue sets in. They then lose the will to fight and are routed instead.

Zhuge Liang is like Liu Bei's mother in this manga.

It's funny how so many generals fall for the trick "retreat and ambush" one time after another. Were really that dumb?

 

The majority of battle deaths occur when one side flees. However, it's hard to stop one's hunting instincts when someone shows you their backs after a hard fight. See MMA fighters for example: some continue to ground-n-pound even though its evident to us audience that the other guy is knocked out already.

 

If you play the game Mount & Blade, you'll see it's easier to kill enemies while they're retreating.

 

The art in that strategy is feigning disorder within your ranks so that it will appear to be a rout. Too orderly and it will look like luring into a new battlefield.

Every chapter still manages to be entertaining. These scanlators are awesome for sticking with this one.

It's funny how so many generals fall for the trick "retreat and ambush" one time after another. Were really that dumb?

 

It's probably the world's most successful battle-tactic ever, used by just about everyone, especially steppe nomads. While I don't doubt some of the less intelligent generals were fooled by it, even for competent generals who can see through the trick, I think the real difficulty in dealing with this tactic is ensuring all your officers, captains, and regular soldiers under your command to show restraint as well. There are times when ancient armies completely fell apart because an infantry or cavalry unit pursued too far or charged without order. A general is still only one man out on a field, and in an era without instant-communication, coordinating and managing all the independent elements within a single army tens of thousands large, can be incredibly difficult.

It's funny how so many generals fall for the trick "retreat and ambush" one time after another. Were really that dumb?

Most manga abut 3 kingdoms are kinda confusing for me but this one is easy to follow. The art is kinda simple but I like it.

I really enjoy reading this, my thanks Hox!

Rapidfire release <3

The last part of this chapter 216 reminded me of Monty Python's Holy Grail, when Arthur's party is in front of the french castle and they start to throw insults

Poor messenger, they are the ones who always take all the hardship...

I caught a reference to this manga in Mr. Fullswing...one of the characters wanted to bring the entire series on a camping trip so that he'd have something to read.

wee, more release, thought it was dropped, thanks Hox

gintama brought me here

@ReminiscientCheeseburger Oh, I don't know, the leader of Shu has his own portly charm. He'd be a fun guy at parties, I'm sure.