Kanojo wa Rokurokubi

Oh boy, spoiler tag because I ended up writing an entire essay on this

 

Spoiler

I see the point you're making, and I agree for the most part. For stuff like novels and manga, you can usually make do with a footnote or margin note. While in some series this can get very cluttered, that's just the price you pay for ensuring the meaning is conveyed.

 

So in regards to "conveying meaning", I have a couple things to note. You always have to decide whether it's more important that the readers get the same "feel" of what the author's saying, or whether it's more important that the readers understand what the author is saying in the same way the original language's readers understand it. Sometimes this choice is easy, like when you have suffixes that don't translate well into English. Sometimes, it's a difficult choice, as in the examples you listed in regards to siblings. The One Piece thing was also kind of a weird thing because the word "nakama" can be translated into multiple different words in English (e.g. comrade), but none of them can really fully convey the meaning and nuance of the word. In my opinion, I think nakama should have just been "comrade", as it pretty much covers most of what the word means in the vast majority of the contexts it's used. Perhaps put a note the first time it's used, noting the meaning behind it.

 

Now again, there's a conundrum here. While keeping an original word does in fact keep all its meaning, the fact of the matter is that if nobody knows what it means, all of the meaning is lost. In other words, in trying to keep all of the meaning, you end up losing all of it. I think it's important to study what contexts the words are used in, and if there's an English alternative that pretty much conveys what it means in those contexts, I'd say to use it. The problem with the aforementioned "nakama" thing was that it's used a LOT in the series, in many different contexts, and certain nuances it has can be critical in conveying what characters mean when they use it, and that meaning can be lost if the nuance is not preserved. There's a lot of ways translators go about trying to combat this, as mentioned above with footnotes and margin notes, but there really isn't a perfect system in place for translating untranslatable words. That's just the nature of trying to fit one system into another, partially-analogous system: sometimes you're trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

 

Now, I want to talk about your examples. I have a very particular view on this matter. Words like "onii-chan" and such as so widely recognized, that they're pretty much part of the English dictionary at this point when it comes to our subculture here. Even people outside of our subculture would at least recognize terms like "senpai" (thanks in large part to the whole tsundere sharks thing), if not know what they mean. So I think it's mostly fine for translators to leave words like that, as people will know what they mean. And as people have pointed out, they do have a lot of nuance that will be lost if you translate them. One more thing about them is that they're used as personal pronouns in Japanese. English-speaking people don't really call their older brother "big brother" in lieu of their name.

 

That said, I also feel that what SHOULD be translated (if the nuance is not particularly important) is things like "okaa-san" and "obaa-chan". People do call their mothers "mom" (or "mum" if you're from the UK) and their grandmothers "Grandma" or what have you. That's an actual thing that has an analog, so it should be used. Again, that's provided that there's no important nuance being missed, such as the differences between "haha-ue" "okaa-sama" and "okaa-san". And sometimes these nuances can be covered, like the differences between "mother" and "mom". I think this kind of stuff is particularly important for spoken media, which I'll get to in just a second.

 

Whew. To wrap up this lengthy response, I'm going to throw out two not-entirely-unrelated rants. If you just wanted to read about my response for translating for whatever reason, go ahead and stop here. The first one is in regards to spoken media (in particular, anime and games). Now personally, I'm a fan of subs over dubs. If I can hear something in its original language (regardless of what language it is), I will do so. There are many reasons for this (such as how anime dub VAs tend to be terrible voice actors), but the basis of my problem is that sometimes, dubs are unavoidable. Particularly so for video games (looking at you, Atlus). In these instances, a lot of the dubs make the mistake of keeping things like Japanese suffixes and terms. The thing is, it sounds awful in English. While I loathe to use the term, it just sounds so weebish. I think that if you're going to bother dubbing it, you might as well localize it enough that it doesn't sound like you're reading a 12-year old's Bleach fanfic. Some companies do this right. Miyazaki was famous for being very particular about the dubbing process, and would personally oversee it. He even said that he liked his dubbed voices better than the original Japanese for some of his movies. The thing about Miyazaki (and Ghibli in general), and that the dubs do not sound Japanese. And that's the way it should be.

 

My second rant in in regards to the growing market of English VNs. In particular, the fact that so many of them insist on setting them in Japan or a Japanese setting. Now, that in itself isn't so bad. But the main problem is that they make the dialogue so (again I hate this term but there's really no better alternative) weebish. They insist on throwing -chan and -san and -senpai and all that shit. If you're writing a story, and it's set in Russia, you're not going to make the dialogue some hideous amalgam of English and Russian. So why do so for Japan?

 

All right, that's the end of my rant. It's a bit ramble-y and it's mostly train of thought, and I didn't bother proofreading or editing because fuck you I'm hungry.

I don't know penis about One Piece, but sgot pirates in, right? Maybe "crewmate", "shipmate", or "mate" would do?

 

Anyway, maximum agreement on each of your points one by one. I think a big reason people struggle with honorifics is the impulse to translate each particular Japanese word into one and only one discrete English word. It's really noticeable in, again, dubs, especially for anime that take place in high school (so, like, all of 'em), where you constantly hear, for example, a high school student refer to another high school student as "Miss Asahina", just because the translator just really NEEDED to find some equivalent for that "-san". Of course, this doesn't really work, since English-speaking high school students do not actually talk like this, so instead of preserving some piece of meaning from the Japanese, you've really just ended up with a bit of leftover cruft that doesn't fit together with the rest of the English in the setting.

 

That's not to say that weebiness is never a factor. I mean, the food itself is one thing, that's always culturally distinct, but come on, a lunchbox is a lunchbox.

Love this serie. Alot

I freaking ADORE this manga.

lmao the hitler fixed germany's economy myth

No, it is not entirely a myth.

 

Investing in research for weapons of war. Building war factories. Using jew slaves, farming humans as slaves actually helped the economy that was on the brink of destruction. Yes, everything he did was cruel, horrific, inexcusable and disgusting but his cruel methods helped the economy of his country and the people who supported his cruel and disgusting beliefs.

Yup. Cute.

 

 

I hate his mom.

.... god riddens she's not around. Even if it sounds bad, it's for the better...

First of all thanks for your reply, this has lots of good, well thought out stuff I can agree with. I have actually done some translating (not from japanese though) that's why I brought it up, since it bothers me. Your example of the nature of japanese folklore is good but all I'm saying is for someone like me who is not probably as well versed in the mythologies or backgrounds, it makes things a whole lot more confusing. Of course the translation here is done to a fansite where you can expect most readers will be fans and know these things, but I'd rather make it more approachable, in a way, by not assuming everyone does.

Here's the thing: a good translation does not translate things word for word. That does make for strange sentences. A good translation conveys the meaning. For example translating a japanese idiom as is would be weird but finding an english equivalent would be good. Am I making any sense here?
 
I've always been supremely annoyed by all the onee-sans and onii-chans in translations. I stand by my opinion that you can convey their meaning by translating them. (the craziest this got was when One Piece was starting out and the whole 'nakama' debacle).

 

Oh boy, spoiler tag because I ended up writing an entire essay on this

 

All these feels. I have no idea what to do with them.

And even worse, they're nicely written feels. A bit blunt at times, but not anvilicious.

I used spoiler cause the reply is long

Spoiler

If you are not aware about Hitler, he made quite a massive improvement to the economy of Germany. The reason why Europe, such as France and England, especially reacted late to Hitler was because the country could not afford to go to war.

 

Hitler actually did a lot improvement on the country and it is still seen now. Why do you think Germany was able to threaten the whole world if they did not have the money to do so? In fact, war itself can be advantageous from an economical p.o.v... America is a prime example. It served as a knock on effect on the economy.

 

Hitler also had one of the greatest developments in research. Why do you think there was a cold war between Russia and America? Cause they brought German scientists to their side... there was a cold war of development. They profited from this.

 

Hitler was a monster but the people at that time seen improvement at the cost of the jews and many other horrific means.

 

You says politicians are not like Hitler but don't you think using his methods of politics make them similar? Don't they lie and manipulate people? I live in Ireland and I have seen the British PM mentioning that 250,000 Romanians were about to invade England when they received the right to work... yet they never did. Guess what happened in the mean time? A lot of hate crime happened. Did the PM apologise? Did the media apologise for scaring people and the weak minded influenced to fear for the sense of security financially and socially? No, they did not.

They used peoples' fears and created hate and xenophobia.

 

I am tempted to hate muslims. Especially the recent attacks, the things they do but I know they are humans too. My conclusion is to look at what you feel and deal with it, don't let it take you over. That is what I thought when I seen videos of the pogroms that happened across Europe. I do not want to be part of a mob/group that abuses muslims or w/e race/religion because of my worries and fears.

 

My conclusion is that there is a need for awareness. Words can be more violent and horrific than modern weapons cause it can influence the hearts of the people.

 

Also, to the polish girl... it is great that you know about your polish history, good and bad. Though I was referring to the pogroms across Europe. I was born in Romania(even though I grew up and lived most of my life in Ireland) and I do wonder how many people my age would know of this or would they care?

lmao the hitler fixed germany's economy myth

No one is talking about the chapter's title? 
Ch.14: Remembering Too Much
Ch.15: Remembering Way Too Much

Ch.16: Remembering Even More Than Too Much
 

Here's the thing: a good translation does not translate things word for word. That does make for strange sentences. A good translation conveys the meaning. For example translating a japanese idiom as is would be weird but finding an english equivalent would be good. Am I making any sense here?

I agree with this one. Though, since I'm not a native English speaker, I'm also fine with Japanese idiom. I don't mind either way as long as I can make sense of the meaning.

 

I've always been supremely annoyed by all the onee-sans and onii-chans in translations. I stand by my opinion that you can convey their meaning by translating them. (the craziest this got was when One Piece was starting out and the whole 'nakama' debacle).

I can't say I agree with this. Onii-chan, onii-san, onii-sama and aniki have different sense of distance in Japanese. To translate them would mean to remove the subtle meaning in them. Same goes for -kun, -san, -chan, -tan, -sama, and many other suffixes.

Might I say, right damn excellent story, this. A great find.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that there's criticism over keeping the term "youkai" considering the word is even kept intact in officially translated media (case in point: Level 5's Yo-Kai Watch franchise. And as I recall, the early promotional ads for the first game even specifically made distinctions between Yo-Kai and standard ghosts/monsters, so....).

Spoiler

 

I like how you made an entire argument against xenophobia and predatory politics and then fit it into fear mongering tactics and then spun it to bash modern politicians. As if Hitler used well-used and well-versed public speaking practices to push genocide from the get go and not to reinvigorate the German economy. Just because someone is great at public speaking does not mean that they are "like Hitler".

 

I don't understand how a rom-com seinen manga detracted to /r/badhistory level high school essays. The xenophobia presented in the manga aren't clear enough to be generalized to xenophobic practices by Japan.

I used spoiler cause the reply is long

 

Also, to the polish girl... it is great that you know about your polish history, good and bad. Though I was referring to the pogroms across Europe. I was born in Romania(even though I grew up and lived most of my life in Ireland) and I do wonder how many people my age would know of this or would they care?

I bet mom is a trump supporter

I bet you're an idiot, bringing American politics into a fictional manga about youkai and Japanese society.

The birth of a youkai fucker.

I bet mom is a trump supporter

you get what you get and i am just glad we get

First of all thanks for your reply, this has lots of good, well thought out stuff I can agree with. I have actually done some translating (not from japanese though) that's why I brought it up, since it bothers me. Your example of the nature of japanese folklore is good but all I'm saying is for someone like me who is not probably as well versed in the mythologies or backgrounds, it makes things a whole lot more confusing. Of course the translation here is done to a fansite where you can expect most readers will be fans and know these things, but I'd rather make it more approachable, in a way, by not assuming everyone does.

Here's the thing: a good translation does not translate things word for word. That does make for strange sentences. A good translation conveys the meaning. For example translating a japanese idiom as is would be weird but finding an english equivalent would be good. Am I making any sense here?
 
I've always been supremely annoyed by all the onee-sans and onii-chans in translations. I stand by my opinion that you can convey their meaning by translating them. (the craziest this got was when One Piece was starting out and the whole 'nakama' debacle).

You seem to get a lot of disagreements, so I'm going to side with you here.

 

I agree. Not everyone knows knows Japanese terms and folklore. Even though the majority of the people here are (possibly) well-versed already, there bound to be some people who knows nothing about them. That's why translators (supposed to) bridge that gap. There is a reason why English-translated Japanese novels aren't filled with Japanese suffixes, terms, and whatnots.

 

While I don't mind translations with Japanese terms, sometimes they can get very lazy. Translators who uses those sometimes think they can get away with substituting everything in Japanese. Some people may like it, I personally think it's distracting. And of course, then there are also translations that is filled with terms and huge blocks of translator's notes. 

Here's the thing: a good translation does not translate things word for word. That does make for strange sentences. A good translation conveys the meaning. For example translating a japanese idiom as is would be weird but finding an english equivalent would be good. Am I making any sense here?

In this I agree with you entirely.  I can do that as fast as thinking between English and Spanish, a language I have spoken fluently for more than half my life.  But those two languages are relatively closely related, both linguistically and culturally, compared to the gulf in language and culture we have between East and West.  I could wish I understood Japanese as well as I do Spanish, but I doubt I will ever get there short of moving to Japan and getting totally immersed in the language as happened with me and Spanish living in Perú over thirty years ago.

Static Transit, on 10 Jun 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

First of all thanks for your reply, this has lots of good, well thought out stuff I can agree with. I have actually done some translating (not from japanese though) that's why I brought it up, since it bothers me. Your example of the nature of japanese folklore is good but all I'm saying is for someone like me who is not probably as well versed in the mythologies or backgrounds, it makes things a whole lot more confusing. Of course the translation here is done to a fansite where you can expect most readers will be fans and know these things, but I'd rather make it more approachable, in a way, by not assuming everyone does.

Here's the thing: a good translation does not translate things word for word. That does make for strange sentences. A good translation conveys the meaning. For example translating a japanese idiom as is would be weird but finding an english equivalent would be good. Am I making any sense here?
 
I've always been supremely annoyed by all the onee-sans and onii-chans in translations. I stand by my opinion that you can convey their meaning by translating them. (the craziest this got was when One Piece was starting out and the whole 'nakama' debacle).

Why are they not translating stuff like "youkai" or "rokurokubi"? That kind of stuff really bugs in translations. Or is it their keikaku?
 
And don't gimme any of that "oh it can't be translated" bullcrap. She could very well be a long-necked girl and it would get the point across. 
 
I dunno, I just don't like leaving terms untranslated. It's lazy.

It would appear that your taste is in the minority, old bean. Most of us (including me) prefer precision and Japanese flavour over extra-complete Anglicization.  And come to think of it, most manga I've seen with youkai in them call them youkai, and every manga I've seen with a rokurokubi (surprisingly, a fair number) calls it a rokurokubi.
If you look around, though, there is the occasional manga translator who does like your approach; I've seen translations that don't even do honorifics.  I wish you luck finding them.  This one seems unlikely to change, though.

Why are they not translating stuff like "youkai" or "rokurokubi"? That kind of stuff really bugs in translations. Or is it their keikaku?

 

And don't gimme any of that "oh it can't be translated" bullcrap. She could very well be a long-necked girl and it would get the point across. 

 

I dunno, I just don't like leaving terms untranslated. It's lazy. 

 

Spoiler tagged because lots of text:

 

Why are they not translating stuff like "youkai" or "rokurokubi"? That kind of stuff really bugs in translations. Or is it their keikaku?
 
And don't gimme any of that "oh it can't be translated" bullcrap. She could very well be a long-necked girl and it would get the point across. 
 
I dunno, I just don't like leaving terms untranslated. It's lazy.

Why don't you try learning another language and culture, as most translators have to do in order to understand what is being said and why.  After you've done that, you are free to criticize the translators because you will understand the issues involved.  But you will more likely commiserate with them.
 
There are things that when translated to their nearest English equivalents sound flat out weird, and if you try to be exactly correct you wind up sounding long winded and pedantic.  This problem is not unique to translating Japanese to English.  You have the same problem going the other way, and you have similar problems with other language pairs.  Most English speakers are used to the relatively close relationship between English and other north-west European languages, but most Asian languages, especially in the south and east of Asia, have next to no relationship with English.  You have to use approximations, or you leave some words untranslated and explain it in the notes.  For example, virtually every professionally marketed translation from Japanese to English has a preface that as a minimum explains the role of honorifics in Japanese speech and culture so that those honorifics can be used, and the nuances contained therein may be preserved in the "translation."

Does this manga involve Hitler and a foot fetish? I'm really really confused by the comments, and the cover doesn't match the summary.

 

Nope, no hitler, no foot fetish.  The comments have devolved into Hitler because thats what they do when racism is brought up.

 

And I think the cover is like that because the author wanted to have his main character drawn like that.

Why are they not translating stuff like "youkai" or "rokurokubi"? That kind of stuff really bugs in translations. Or is it their keikaku?

 

And don't gimme any of that "oh it can't be translated" bullcrap. She could very well be a long-necked girl and it would get the point across. 

 

I dunno, I just don't like leaving terms untranslated. It's lazy. 

That's because some words don't have an equivalent translation. Substituting the definition or a description of he word isn't appropriate either. It would be like having the word sensei (which has a variation of similar meanings) as "someone knowledgeable enough in their field to teach others" every single time it appeared. Simply replacing it with teacher isn't appropriate because those translations won't be accurate in all cases. Particularly since the use of Teacher in English has a narrower usage than the use of Sensei in Japanese.

 

English is filled with Loan words from other languages that are easier to learn a new word and it's definition rather than inventing a new word/writing the definition each time. other japanese loadwords include Haiku, Origami, Shamisen, and Kimono. There is simply no point in reinventing the wheel.

And don't gimme any of that "oh it can't be translated" bullcrap. She could very well be a long-necked girl and it would get the point across. 

I beg to differ. Translating youkai to ghost or whatever would make it lose its Japan-specific meaning. That may be the correct choice for works that aren’t really using cultural references. This manga however is built around Japanese folklore. It’s really the same with Rokurokubi: Of course she’s a “long-necked girl”. But not just any—a Japanese one.