Past Future

Don't forget that she's still making him pay for: her allowing him to crossdress.

 

That's probably enough reason for her to qualify as an total ashole if you ask me.

He's paying for allowing him to Use her clothes, its the reason why they went shopping.

Don't forget that she's still making him pay for: her allowing him to crossdress.

 

That's probably enough reason for her to qualify as an total ashole if you ask me.

The best part of this is his "relation" with the internet. lol.

 

Of course you don't even know what word I'm talking about, and say that it is probably not offensive. Newsflash, I'm a trans woman and I know damn well what words are offensive to us. You still haven't explained why it's totally fine for some people to wear Uncanny Bullshit Suit and not for others, and why your delicate feelings on who's allowed to wear it or not should be relevant or even remotely equal to the right of people to express themselves.

How did I miss your use of a derogatory slur for trans women? The fact that you used that word yet still claim to be supportive says a lot. By the way, your Uncanny Suit bullshit example? That one fails because you consider it perfectly ok and not distressing for Jane Does (plural) to wear it, but if you see a John Doe wearing it suddenly you get disgusted and demand them to stop wearing it where you can see. Meanwhile Jane Does walk by wearing it and you don't react. That, my bigot, is pure unfiltered bigotry.

What derogative slur? I'm sorry, but what is considered derogative in one community isn't necessarily true for others. Point it out to me and I will watch my usage. Anyway, like I have said before, we're all bigots colored by prejudice. The difference is the issues we're bigoted about, and our ability to not let our bias dictate our actions. Just because someone has learnt to tolerate something doesn't mean that they like it. It's not as simple as a snap of a finger. If you think that throwing the word bigot at me enough times is going to make my point moot, you are sorely mistaken. Once a word is thrown around so loosely that it applies to just about everyone, it loses it's cutting edge.
People who strongly hate pink because it's a "girly" color are prejudiced, and as I have said, assholes who insist on wearing pink for lulz and kicks around people who they know will have a strong reaction to it are selfish assholes, no matter how you slice it.

How did I miss your use of a derogatory slur for trans women? The fact that you used that word yet still claim to be supportive says a lot. By the way, your Uncanny Suit bullshit example? That one fails because you consider it perfectly ok and not distressing for Jane Does (plural) to wear it, but if you see a John Doe wearing it suddenly you get disgusted and demand them to stop wearing it where you can see. Meanwhile Jane Does walk by wearing it and you don't react. That, my bigot, is pure unfiltered bigotry.

*EDIT*: It looks like permalinks to comments aren't working for some reason, but I'm too lazy to go and redo this because I have a feeling it'll be pearls before swine since JVC doesn't even appear to be reading my comments. Anyway, my timezone is GMT +8, so if you tweak your profile settings, you should be able to find the comments i'm referring to easily from the date and time.*END EDIT*

Metro, tell me what you think of the Uncanny Suit.

For JVC,

So wait, the "Man in Woman's underwear" was meant to be a serious argument? I ignored it because it is a ridiculous slippery slope fallacy that looked like it was obviously going to slide into "But think of the CHILDREN" territory. But fine, here's my answer;

NOPE, Don't Care.
It's clothing, and I, like a Lumberjack, don't care.
Nudity Taboos are stupid by definition anyways, and seeing someone dressed in a way I personally find unfashionable does not actually cause me any "distress".

Rehashed argument used by Metro here: Mar 20 2013 06:11 AM. My response first paragraph here: Mar 20 2013 10:01 AM and second paragraph here: Mar 20 2013 04:34 PM. Please tell me what you think about the Uncanny Suit. The discussion cannot proceed until this is answered.

And I'm STILL Not seeing any explanations from you on how this causes you any harm whatsoever. If you don't like it don't look.

JVC, it deviates from social norms, so some people find it uncanny and get creeped out. And like I've said time and time again, yes, the onus is on the disgusted people to not look at it if they don't like it. The problem is when it becomes impossible not to look at it, as in the case of a stubborn co-worker or family member.

Still not seeing why it's okay for you to demand someone else change their tastes, but not okay for someone else to demand you change yours.

Wait, maybe this is it;
"No major distress to you from missing out on enjoying your favorite pink shirt and mismatched socks at select places, major distress to that guy who finds it highly revolting for whatever reason."
I was not aware we had discovered an objective method of measuring distress. But once again, the Distress of being unable to express themselves for fear of violent and sexual harassment leads to a 41% attempted suicide rate in the Trans* Community.

This is a Fact.

Bigots like you harassing and not accepting Trans* People is literally killing them even when you bigots aren't resorting to outright murder. On the other hand, no one ever killed themselves after seeing a Trans* Person living happily.

So I would say, using the only metric we've got, that the "Distress" you experience over seeing someone cross-dressing is no where near comparable to the Actual Distress Trans* people experience from being actively denied the right to express themselves combined with the Actual Distress of being constantly victimized, harassed, and assaulted by People like you and Society at Large.

No one said anything about changing other people's tastes. As I have said time and time again, what they do is their own business, so long as they don't do it in places where people are forced to be exposed to them. I could care less that they enjoy it, and I won't even try to get them not to. Other the other hand, you have been pretty insistent that we must change to accept your tastes. Really says something about you. And like i have emphasized over and over again:

Yes, and the people who drove the transgendered to suicide are asses. Your point? I thought i've made my stance very clear. There is a big difference between a real tranny and a hobbyist cross dresser. I don't think anyone has ever killed themselves because their hobby was restricted to certain places(read: their room and public). I don't see why people are getting riled up against me when i've made it very clear that I do not condone interfering with the rights of actual gays and trannies to be what they are. I'm only against cross dressers who cross dress to feel good or to have fun. Even then, I've made it clear that what these people do in places where people aren't forced to be exposed to them are entirely their own business. Or maybe what you have been trying to tell me all along is that the THRILL and PLEASURE of cross dressing is so great that some people absolutely must do it at all times, no matter the cost to self and others, even to the extent where they are willing to end their lives if they aren't allowed to do it whenever they want. Is that it? If that's the case, that sounds like a severe case of addiction to me, and should be treated as such.

Damn it, can you even read?

So wait, the "Man in Woman's underwear" was meant to be a serious argument?  I ignored it because it is a ridiculous slippery slope fallacy that looked like it was obviously going to slide into "But think of the CHILDREN" territory.  But fine, here's my answer;

 

NOPE, Don't Care.

It's clothing, and I, like a Lumberjack, don't care.

Nudity Taboos are stupid by definition anyways, and seeing someone dressed in a way I personally find unfashionable does not actually cause me any "distress".

 

And I'm STILL Not seeing any explanations from you on how this causes you any harm whatsoever.  If you don't like it don't look. 

 

Still not seeing why it's okay for you to demand someone else change their tastes, but not okay for someone else to demand you change yours.

 

Wait, maybe this is it;

"No major distress to you from missing out on enjoying your favorite pink shirt and mismatched socks at select places, major distress to that guy who finds it highly revolting for whatever reason."

I was not aware we had discovered an objective method of measuring distress.  But once again, the Distress of being unable to express themselves for fear of violent and sexual harassment leads to a 41% attempted suicide rate in the Trans* Community.

 

This is a Fact.

 

Bigots like you harassing and not accepting Trans* People is literally killing them even when you bigots aren't resorting to outright murder.  On the other hand, no one ever killed themselves after seeing a Trans* Person living happily.

 

So I would say, using the only metric we've got, that the "Distress" you experience over seeing someone cross-dressing is no where near comparable to the Actual Distress Trans* people experience from being actively denied the right to express themselves combined with the Actual Distress of being constantly victimized, harassed, and assaulted by People like you and Society at Large.

If it's ok for one gender to wear, then it's ok for all genders to wear.

But it all boils down to you finding men who wear dresses disgusting. Way to uphold the status quo.

At exactly what point does boy clothes become girl clothes? Why are you so obsessed with men running around in underwear? I don't have a problem with them running around in underwear, as long as they don't break any public indecency laws by doing it. But that is your go-to, be-all, end-all point. Men running around in underwear. Somehow you seem to think that undermines our arguments and that you should be free to discriminate against people wearing clothes that aren't "normal" enough for your delicate sensibilities.

 

I don't get why you are so adamant about policing other peoples expression, if you aren't a bigot as you say. If they're wearing clothes that don't break any public indecency laws then, well, any distress you feel is entirely on you. You're the one distressing yourself. Some people wear mismatched socks, and some people are very distressed by that. That doesn't make the mismatched sock person an asshole, it makes the person distressed about it an asshole if they start complaining. If you're so upset on clothe-choices, then maybe you should buy a set of clothes acceptable to you for everyone you get offended by, to wear in your vicinity. You might find that nobody wants to be in your vicinity then.

Your entire argument hinges on the slippery slope fallacy. It goes both ways. I'm distressed by you wearing anything other than a fully-encapsulating black plastic bag. Your choice to wear pants and shirt instead is distressful and you need to stop.

Except it isn't a slippery slope fallacy. I am not implying that this will pave the way for men to start running around the streets in girl's underwear(not in the foreseeable future at least. society's moral values do tend to change over time). My point is that the entire idea of men on the streets in girl's underwear is absurd. Something that I am sure just about anyone can relate to, so the whole argument that "it's just goddamn clothes" is invalid. Fashion choice of just panties is "goddamn clothes" after all. On the other hand, if the next "in" thing in fashion is a black plastic bag, i might even be caught wearing one willingly. However, the whole idea is absurd right now, so wearing one will embarrass me, thus causing me distress. Like I said, if conforming to expectations will cause distress to the individual, he should be excused. Therefore, your argument is invalid. In your case, you will have to learn to tolerate and accept shirt and pants.

Still not seeing a lot of explaining about how a person cross-dressing negatively impacts you in the slightest.

Still not seeing a lot of explaining about how a man running around in girl's underwear negatively impacts you in the slightest. When you can answer this, I will have an answer for you.

I am however seeing a lot of you trying to redefine this into a discussion about what impulses or desires or forms of expression are 'legitimate'. as if you have any authority or right to try to do that, or even the necessary understanding of human sexuality to be qualified to make such pronouncements given your inability to understand concepts of Sexual Orientation or Presentation outside of your narrowly defined Gender Binary.

To distill my argument into a few lines;
1: Why the person wants to cross-dress is completely immaterial and unimportant. They want to cross-dress.
2: Someone Cross-Dressing does not negatively impact anyone at all any more than any other fashion choices would.
3: Therefore the other people have no right to try and get the cross-dresser to stop any more than you have any right to try to get someone to stop wearing a Pink Shirt because the color is 'hurtful' to your eyes.

No, I have no authority, and certainly less informed than you about gender issues. Therefore, I base my logic on a simple argument that should apply in all situations: "It's not okay to enjoy your hobbies at other people's expense." If there is a problem in that argument, please point it out, as I will continue to use it to dismantle your arguments. For your distilled argument:
1. No, the reason why they are cross dressing should be everything when deciding whether they have a right to cross dress. Refer to my argument above.
2. So you're saying men running around in girl's underwear does not negatively impact anyone, and should be allowed?
3. Your point 3 depends on 1 and 2, so unless you can further substantiate the first 2, I can't accept it as a valid point. BTW, if you absolutely hate pink, the onus will be on you to avoid people who wear pink, just as I will try to avoid cross dressers. If I had any way of knowing that someone i have to see really hates pink, I will go out of my way not to wear pink, even if it is my favorite color. It's not like I would die, and there are many occasions when I can wear pink when he's not around. And yes, I will most certainly think less of anyone who still wears pink with full knowledge that there will be someone around who is absolutely repulsed(think the same level of repulsion people currently have to cross dressers) by it. That guy is an asshole for creating conflict for no good reason.

Still not seeing a lot of explaining about how a person cross-dressing negatively impacts you in the slightest.

 

I am however seeing a lot of you trying to redefine this into a discussion about what impulses or desires or forms of expression are 'legitimate'. as if you have any authority or right to try to do that, or even the necessary understanding of human sexuality to be qualified to make such pronouncements given your inability to understand concepts of Sexual Orientation or Presentation outside of your narrowly defined Gender Binary.

 

To distill my argument into a few lines;

1: Why the person wants to cross-dress is completely immaterial and unimportant.  They want to cross-dress.

2: Someone Cross-Dressing does not negatively impact anyone at all any more than any other fashion choices would.

3: Therefore the other people have no right to try and get the cross-dresser to stop any more than you have any right to try to get someone to stop wearing a Pink Shirt because the color is 'hurtful' to your eyes.

Your entire argument hinges on the slippery slope fallacy. It goes both ways. I'm distressed by you wearing anything other than a fully-encapsulating black plastic bag. Your choice to wear pants and shirt instead is distressful and you need to stop.

Explain to me what actual harm he is doing to anyone else by exposing them to this side of his personality. How is he hurting anyone, what terrible distress is he actually causing? And explain to me how this distress is different from the sort of "distress" that a White Supremacist would feel seeing a Black Family living happily.

Also, I would say the fact he's haggling for more time to express this aspect of his personality means he has more of a stake in it than just "lulz and kicks". Notice how when asked if he wanted to be a woman he responded with "I don't know". it's almost as if this sort of a transition is really really confusing and difficult to work through and support is as both helpful as it is rare. Maybe if we had a Mangaka more willing to actually explore the issues brought up over the course of this Manga we could have actually seen some sort of resolution.

And for your information, there are waaaaaay more reasons for a person to want to cross-dress, and I'm not even getting into all of the out there reasons you find in Manga. You know, reasons like they actually like the different styles and their choice of clothing doesn't actually do anything to hurt anyone else. Or because some people who identify as predominately female don't necessarily want to be physically female. You know, because the issue is kind of more complex than you think.

And people might be a little less emotional about this if this sort of bigotry didn't result in a 41% attempted suicide rate in addition to a shit ton of other oppression including outright murder.
It's kind of a big deal.

And...it's straight to personal attacks once you lose on logic and reasoning. You're the only one crying a river. I'm still calm and composed. And maybe I should start petitioning my city for the right for men to run around the city in only girl's panties. It's goddam clothes, so those massive bigots out there have no business interfering. Exposes as much as swimwear, which is perfectly fine at family friendly pools, so why not on the streets? No problem right?

Anyway, read carefully what i posted. It is not okay to cause others distress and inconvenience for your own ENTERTAINMENT. Keyword is entertainment. Like i have also said, "Properly wearing men's clothing is not causing him any distress, because he isn't a girl trapped in guy's body." Actual gays are distressed when they are refused the right to wear women's clothing. They're not doing it for lulz and kicks, so society should accept, or at the very least, tolerate them. I can never accept them, so i'll settle for toleration. Maybe I WILL end up confining myself in my room if i had a gay brother, since it'll be weighing my distress against his. I can't very well tell him not to do it at home in such a scenario. This guy here, no dice, since it's nothing more than a hobby for him.

BTW, if you're just going to respond with more personal attacks unsupported by logic or reason, i won't even bother to respond. Don't feed the trolls and all that.

Correct thing would be for you to shut up and the sister in the story to deal with it. It's goddamn clothes, you're sounding like a massive bigot now. Probably because you are. The same arguments you are using are used against gay people for example. "Don't expose innocent straight people to gayness waah waah". Cry me a river.

Anyway, most of the time, men wear women clothes for two major reasons: because they are transgender, or for fetishtic reasons. Whether he is doing it for fetishistic reasons is besides the point here anyway. He doesn't identify as a woman. Properly wearing men's clothing is not causing him any distress, because he isn't a girl trapped in guy's body. Wearing women's clothes in front of his sister is causing his sister distress. I think the correct thing to do here should be obvious.

It doesn't "becomes assholeish and annoying when it's on someone you consider a boy/man". The assholeish part is the part where he insists on being disgusting when people specifically tells him that it is. That's his cue to stop exposing others to that behavior, but he doesn't. Anyway, like you said, it's fully acceptable on women. That doesn't make it acceptable on men. What about things that are fully acceptable in certain settings. Bikinis on the streets. Push it further. Lingerie exposes just as much as bikinis, so why shouldn't one be allowed to walk around the city in his undies. How far are you willing to push the line? Where do you stop? Who decides how far is too far?

I still don't see how wearing clothes makes you an asshole. The asshole thing was taking their sisters clothes, but if they had bought their own clothes I honestly don't see the issue. It's clothes. Standard clothes that is fully acceptable on those you consider girls/women, but suddenly it becomes assholeish and annoying when it's on someone you consider a boy/man? It definitely smells like bigotry. Most of the times, wearing clothes isn't a fetish. In this case it certainly doesn't seem like it, at least not at the end.

Gender bender is actually one of my all time favourite genres. I'm reading at least 7(probably more, since some only update once in 2 months, so i forget about them) different manga that have the tag. However, what can be cute or interesting in 2D doesn't necessarily work in 3D. Kind of like how I gravitate towards twin tail DFC lolis in anime and manga, but prefer tall, well endowed women in RL. And have you guys met women who talk and act like anime girls? I start feeling embarrassed and wish i could bury myself in a hole even though i'm not the one doing it.
Yeah, bondage gear is probably a closer comparison. I just grabbed the first fetish that comes to mind. There is no such thing as lesser or greater in the world of fetishes. Different people have different levels of tolerance. I'm sure i can find many people who would rather sit through death metal at full volume than be locked in a room with a cross dresser. I'm sure i can find people who would choose the cross dresser too. And there'll most certainly be people who would rather take the third option of having a giant pile of poo in the middle of the room. Oh, and from what I read, the brother IS prancing around the house in cross dress at all times, especially when his sister is around. Mainly because the internet(2ch probably) told him to lol. Something about wanting to show his sister his cute side so she'd accept him. Makes for comedy gold in a manga, but that doesn't make him any less of a dick for doing it.

It's cool, but isn't it kind of funny that you consider cross-dressing disgusting but still you read this manga? And I don't think comparing cross-dressing to scat is a fair comparison. Maybe to another fetish like going around the house in bondage gear or whatever. I probably wouldn't like that, but out of all the fetishes in the world don't you think cross-dressing is one of the lesser ones? It's not noise pollution, it doesn't smell like poo, hell I don't think the character in the manga was actually prancing around the house continuously like a fairy, purposely annoying his sister.

BTW, I hope the scat fetishists don't start to flame me too lol. For the record, I'm perfectly fine with that fetish too, so long as you don't do it in front of me. The general rule to live by is that everything is okay, so long as it does not inconvenience or harm people around you for your own entertainment.