Nectar of Dharani

A scientist here (not necessarily a physicist but a very close one), but I really don't like how so many (clueless) people have misconceptions about science.  I can't hold them responsible because they probably don't have the time to do science and understand what kind of area of study it is or what it bases itself on, and it's not going to do anything as long as we are talking about fiction like this one. Heck, I've even seen scientists who aren't really sure about science. I know a famous scientist who does great in science but cannot do any good in another field, who attempted linking science and existence of God in a hilariously wrong manner. But let me tell you this.

 

Science do not in any way state that only things observed can be studied and explained. It can also explain things that cannot necessarily (directly) be observed. Science is merely an area of research where logic is used from a given set of observations or another logical conclusions (former for experimentalists and the latter for theorists) to derive new conclusions of how it happens or what can be predicted. As such, anything that cannot be explained by science only becomes a subject to study, nothing more and nothing less. Especially in the field of particle physics, we don't always directly observe something. Rather, we sometimes employ theory and logic to indirectly observe something. We can observe most fermions (electrons, neutrinos, etc) rather directly (there's a degree in "directness" so don't take this term for granted), but particles like photons, gluons, W and Z bosons are detected umabiguously but indirectly. You may think "photons, really? we see them everyday". But you have to understand that we observe electromagnetic wave because our it causes electronic excitations of a photoreactive molecules within the photoreceptor cells that produces chemical reactions. Photon detectors like photoamplifier tubes actually convert photon into electrons (photoelectric effect) and semiconductor detectors convert photon into excited electrons that moves through the conduction band of a semiconductor material. Photons, gluons, W and Z bosons are interpreted as force carriers, and it is by actually seeing the consequence of such force carriers that we "observe" them. We don't detect them directly. As a matter of fact, hypothetical particles like graviton (which is another type of force carrier particles) is understood to be a  practically undetectable particle (in theory, it can but needs a huge detector of a size of a planet). I'm not a particle physicist so I apologize for any specific inaccuracies written here. We don't observe them, but we have a good idea how it (should) behave, and be confident that it probably does exist.

 

So "scientifically", magic (although its definition is quite abstract) is merely something that science has not provided an explanation for. It does not mean science cannot explain them forever. It's just that there is no explanation yet. Science don't prove nor disprove God neither. There is no logical grounds as of now to draw any conclusions about that. Does that mean science can never hope to even discuss it in the future? No, that would be a logical fallacy.

 

Take a random medieval guy and bring them to our current society and he/she'll probably call our technology "magic".

I half agree with you, An "explanation" doesn't equal complete understanding, science is how we attempt to explain reality, by definition magic is both a word we use to explain what we don't or can't understand and a noun for the phenomenon we see in fiction.

 

I believe this quote is apt here:

 

Go back to your Tumblr-Hugbox.

I'm going to use this, I might even make some T-shirts.

 

This is why I love the comments section here, it's just a fun time, there are some bad moments but that's life, *sigh* I'm gonna miss this

I'm sorry but magic and science aren't the same thing. Science states that everything observed can be studied and explained, anything that can't be immediatly explained is called magic. And thus Magic would be science that is far too advanced for the current scientists to explain. BUt this is the point of view of scientists only. A scientist's word about something can only be trusted if they're talking about science, a scientist talking about magic is the same as a painter trying to explain physics. If magic is everything that science cannot explain, then it might as well be something that is impossible to ever be explained by science. Because there will always be things that cannot be currently explained. Just think, if we could solve all the problems we currently face in science, like the perpetual machine, or the missing link between organic chemistry and biochemistry, there would still be no answer as to what made the laws of physics into what it is. Why do living things exist, and what purpose to they serve? And so on.

 

What you're using here is the "Magic is Science" concept.

Valid in some cases, but it doesn't apply to all fiction.

 

Personally, the "Magic is different approach" is a vastly superior concept, because while it makes zero sense for science itself, curiously enough, if fits science's description of Magic, while succesfully denying it completely.

 

According to this version, fire is hot because it burns, magical fire doesn't necessarily contain energy that can be absorbed and cooled down. It's hot and it burns everything it touches, but it can only be stopped by equally magical water and cold, because it conceptually quenches fire. While lightning is fast and it strikes true, it cannot diverge from it's original trajectory, following the user's will with absolute precision. It's mind over matter, all laws can be bent(including physics laws) to one's will, Reality is only limited by the extent of your imagination. This would be magic, a primal force of nature, chaotic, unknown and as old as the universe.

This version, states that magic cannot be touched by science because it's tottally separated from the laws of physics. Humans can't ever explain magic because science simply doesn't work on somehting it cannot touch and it considers it as not existing at all. Be it the wills of the gods, or a supernatural force predating the beginning of all, or even an unseen energy that permeates all that exists, magic is something like that.

A scientist here (not necessarily a physicist but a very close one), but I really don't like how so many (clueless) people have misconceptions about science.  I can't hold them responsible because they probably don't have the time to do science and understand what kind of area of study it is or what it bases itself on, and it's not going to do anything as long as we are talking about fiction like this one. Heck, I've even seen scientists who aren't really sure about science. I know a famous scientist who does great in science but cannot do any good in another field, who attempted linking science and existence of God in a hilariously wrong manner. But let me tell you this.

 

Science do not in any way state that only things observed can be studied and explained. It can also explain things that cannot necessarily (directly) be observed. Science is merely an area of research where logic is used from a given set of observations or another logical conclusions (former for experimentalists and the latter for theorists) to derive new conclusions of how it happens or what can be predicted. As such, anything that cannot be explained by science only becomes a subject to study, nothing more and nothing less. Especially in the field of particle physics, we don't always directly observe something. Rather, we sometimes employ theory and logic to indirectly observe something. We can observe most fermions (electrons, neutrinos, etc) rather directly (there's a degree in "directness" so don't take this term for granted), but particles like photons, gluons, W and Z bosons are detected umabiguously but indirectly. You may think "photons, really? we see them everyday". But you have to understand that we observe electromagnetic wave because our it causes electronic excitations of a photoreactive molecules within the photoreceptor cells that produces chemical reactions. Photon detectors like photoamplifier tubes actually convert photon into electrons (photoelectric effect) and semiconductor detectors convert photon into excited electrons that moves through the conduction band of a semiconductor material. Photons, gluons, W and Z bosons are interpreted as force carriers, and it is by actually seeing the consequence of such force carriers that we "observe" them. We don't detect them directly. As a matter of fact, hypothetical particles like graviton (which is another type of force carrier particles) is understood to be a  practically undetectable particle (in theory, it can but needs a huge detector of a size of a planet). I'm not a particle physicist so I apologize for any specific inaccuracies written here. We don't observe them, but we have a good idea how it (should) behave, and be confident that it probably does exist.

 

So "scientifically", magic (although its definition is quite abstract) is merely something that science has not provided an explanation for. It does not mean science cannot explain them forever. It's just that there is no explanation yet. Science don't prove nor disprove God neither. There is no logical grounds as of now to draw any conclusions about that. Does that mean science can never hope to even discuss it in the future? No, that would be a logical fallacy.

 

Take a random medieval guy and bring them to our current society and he/she'll probably call our technology "magic".

I bet not even your parents would miss you if you vanished one day.
I wont even comment on your friends because we both know that you have none.

 

This is exactly the kind of toxicity they're talking about........

His name is Gakuto, on page 21 and 43.

I'm ashamed, can't believe i missed it, four times even, It also said on page 9 and 13 too, now that i reread it.

 

Can't wait to see how Kai will solve the Kerosene Factory Waste Pollution on the Nereid Village. Tho it seems that won't be on Batoto sadly.

 

Will Finemang uploads on another reading site?

FFS people, (I am really hoping that I remember this correctly, its been a few chapters and manga since I read it. If I am wrong, please yell at me.) 1+1 always equals 2, 2+2 always equals 4. If the math being done results in anything else then something that is not understood is happening. (Math on paper is clean, you know the variables. Math in the real world is not, we cannot account for all subatomic particles, all energy waves, all spatial planes, etc, etc.) It irks me to no end that people keep explaining magic this way. Magic and science are effectively the same damn thing. They follow along the same parallel path, but where as science is purely the observation of the mechanical functions of the universe, magic is the observation and manipulation of the programmatic functions of the universe... I.E. Science: use stick on log (as pivot) to assist in lifting object. Magic: use (ambiguous) method to manipulate (ambiguous) energy to cause (ambiguous) function. This is vastly more difficult due to the ambiguity (where as push on stick, lift object). The maths are still there, some quantity of energy is required for lift, the energy is used to either generate thrust or manipulate inertia (and therefore cancel out gravity.) And, in all likelihood sometime in the distant future humans will be manipulating functions directly, rather than indirectly (i.e. instead of burning fuel to somehow create thrust, redirect energy to cause motion). Anyway...

I'm sorry but magic and science aren't the same thing. Science states that everything observed can be studied and explained, anything that can't be immediatly explained is called magic. And thus Magic would be science that is far too advanced for the current scientists to explain. BUt this is the point of view of scientists only. A scientist's word about something can only be trusted if they're talking about science, a scientist talking about magic is the same as a painter trying to explain physics. If magic is everything that science cannot explain, then it might as well be something that is impossible to ever be explained by science. Because there will always be things that cannot be currently explained. Just think, if we could solve all the problems we currently face in science, like the perpetual machine, or the missing link between organic chemistry and biochemistry, there would still be no answer as to what made the laws of physics into what it is. Why do living things exist, and what purpose to they serve? And so on.

 

What you're using here is the "Magic is Science" concept.

Valid in some cases, but it doesn't apply to all fiction.

 

Personally, the "Magic is different approach" is a vastly superior concept, because while it makes zero sense for science itself, curiously enough, if fits science's description of Magic, while succesfully denying it completely.

 

According to this version, fire is hot because it burns, magical fire doesn't necessarily contain energy that can be absorbed and cooled down. It's hot and it burns everything it touches, but it can only be stopped by equally magical water and cold, because it conceptually quenches fire. While lightning is fast and it strikes true, it cannot diverge from it's original trajectory, following the user's will with absolute precision. It's mind over matter, all laws can be bent(including physics laws) to one's will, Reality is only limited by the extent of your imagination. This would be magic, a primal force of nature, chaotic, unknown and as old as the universe.

This version, states that magic cannot be touched by science because it's tottally separated from the laws of physics. Humans can't ever explain magic because science simply doesn't work on somehting it cannot touch and it considers it as not existing at all. Be it the wills of the gods, or a supernatural force predating the beginning of all, or even an unseen energy that permeates all that exists, magic is something like that.

No breasts are too big or small for Kai to get his drink on.

One thing I won't miss with Batoto closing is how toxic, arrogant and ridiculous the comment sections have gotten over the last year or so.

I bet not even your parents would miss you if you vanished one day.
I wont even comment on your friends because we both know that you have none.

Toxic yes, arrogant yes, ridiculous? no. I love how people can go straight from talking about boobs to crack cocaine to flat earth theory

People who unironically use the word TOXIC when a community is shitposts and smacktalks each other a bit are self-righteous farthuffers to the highest degree.

Go back to your Tumblr-Hugbox.

No boobs shall escape.

Nereid boobs cant wait.

All the waifus are so smashable, my goodness

No smash loli, only protecc

One thing I won't miss with Batoto closing is how toxic, arrogant and ridiculous the comment sections have gotten over the last year or so.

Toxic yes, arrogant yes, ridiculous? no. I love how people can go straight from talking about boobs to crack cocaine to flat earth theory

That Lizardman is very likable, you should at least give him a name Author-sensei!

His name is Gakuto, on page 21 and 43.

That Lizardman is very likable, you should at least give him a name Author-sensei!

Lmao that side-character callout on the MC

All the waifus are so smashable, my goodness

One thing I won't miss with Batoto closing is how toxic, arrogant and ridiculous the comment sections have gotten over the last year or so.

ok, decided to give another echii manga a shot as i havent read any in a while.

*reads up to pg 39 of ch1*

mmm, ok main charecter is a bit of a coward, but i imagine myself in his shoes and get over it. but so far its actually nice. even the art is nice. Haha i wonder how shes gonna give the main charecter powers!(what should have tipped me off was that the brother didnt even know how the power was given)

 

*sees pg 40*

 

....

 

*sees page 41*

........

 

*tabs to manga description and sees Qwaser*

 

......

 

*has deja vu flashbacks of watching (and pausing) episode 1 of Qwaser with the same

Spoiler

BOOOOOOBS AND NIPPLES! FREE MILK! GET YER FREE MILK HERE! ALL NATURAL!

scene*

 

*closes both manga tabs*

Just imagine he's voiced by Suichi Ikeda and it's all fine.

Magic and science are effectively the same damn thing. They follow along the same parallel path, but where as science is purely the observation of the mechanical functions of the universe, magic is the observation and manipulation of the programmatic functions of the universe...

Citations please.

 

"Magic" has four major defining attributes:

• Supernatural: paranormal, preternatural, extraordinary— “magic” is not an example of normally occurring phenomena in the world and is by definition a “special occurrence”.
• Mystical: spiritual, otherworldly, transcendental, incorporeal— magic has spiritual significance that transcends conventional human perception, making it similar to (and often a component of) religion.
• Esoteric: mysterious, secretive, cryptic, abstract— magic is understood only by a chosen few, an enlightened inner circle, and thus is not widely available to the public and can only be replicated by special individuals.
• Conceptual: imaginary, notional, fantastical, fictitious— magic is something that is only apparent within the minds of the observers and is thus completely dependent on their faith to exist as a "truth".

 

Meanwhile, "science" is defined as basically the opposite of those four attributes:

• Natural: science allows us to understand and reproduce natural phenomena through methodical observation and experimentation.
• Rational: science strives to be logically sound, and not contradictory, irrational, or unreasonable.
• Exoteric: science is highly accessible, capable of being readily and fully learned and applied by anyone with the proper materials.
• Material: science is readily apparent and is supported by physical evidence that is reliably and consistently replicable, and thus does not rely on belief to exist—Newton's laws of gravitation are true regardless of your opinion of them.

 

 

Science: use stick on log (as pivot) to assist in lifting object.

Magic: use (ambiguous) method to manipulate (ambiguous) energy to cause (ambiguous) function.

This is vastly more difficult due to the ambiguity (where as push on stick, lift object). The maths are still there, some quantity of energy is required for lift, the energy is used to either generate thrust or manipulate inertia (and therefore cancel out gravity.)

Your assertion that "magic and science are effectively the same damn thing" falls pretty flat. The problem is your use of the word "ambiguous". With your science example, the mechanism through which energy is utilized to lift an object is immediately evident—it's the fulcrum, a simple machine for applying force using the mechanical advantage of leverage. With the magic example, I can at least agree that it would be vastly more difficult, because there are no mechanisms described through which it could accomplish anything. Saying "the maths are still there" is honestly a complete lie—what you've said basically amounts to "an operand is operated by an operand which is operated by another operand which is operated by another operand, continued to the n-th operand, to arrive at a result of 10". You don't know what numbers the operands are, you don't know the arity (number of operands being operated), you don't even know what operator was used—you just know the result is 10. Is this knowledge in any way useful in understanding how to calculate this function? Is "use (ambiguous) method to manipulate (ambiguous) energy to cause (ambiguous) function" useful?

 

Science is "a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe." What this essentially means is that anything that can be observed, explained, tested experimentally, and replicated falls under the purview of science. If we can describe the mechanics of "magic", test those mechanics, and consistently replicate the effect of "magic", then it's not actually "magic"—it's science.

 

 

And, in all likelihood sometime in the distant future humans will be manipulating functions directly, rather than indirectly (i.e. instead of burning fuel to somehow create thrust, redirect energy to cause motion). Anyway...

On what do you base your confidence in this assertion? Because that sounds like a fallacy to me.

ok, decided to give another echii manga a shot as i havent read any in a while.
*reads up to pg 39 of ch1*
mmm, ok main charecter is a bit of a coward, but i imagine myself in his shoes and get over it. but so far its actually nice. even the art is nice. Haha i wonder how shes gonna give the main charecter powers!(what should have tipped me off was that the brother didnt even know how the power was given)
 
*sees pg 40*
 
....
 
*sees page 41*
........
 
*tabs to manga description and sees Qwaser*
 
......
 
*has deja vu flashbacks of watching (and pausing) episode 1 of Qwaser with the same

Spoiler

BOOOOOOBS AND NIPPLES! FREE MILK! GET YER FREE MILK HERE! ALL NATURAL!

scene*
 
*closes both manga tabs*

So, you stopped reading because the MC gets powers from drinking "nectar" and that alone?
You, sir, are missing out on a LOT in life if you stop reading things for stupid reasons.

Granted, I continue reading things for idiotic reasons, but often this gets me past the initial phases of "bad" or "not good" to "oh, so that's where they are going with this.
Additionally, I will say this, he stops being a coward and does some excellent things...

This is all I will say on this, and it is likely that Bato.to will fully be dead before a new chapter is released (check forms if you don't already know, or Google it.)

It's not really a plothole. There are implications that Ambrosia and all of its matter are kind of mythical and private. Everyone may knows about it but nothing detailed, even the real Grey hasn't learned that it's actually breast milk back at the very beginning. This could mean that the reason none of Kai's allies questioning it is because they doesn't know better. For the enemies, they haven't seen yet why and how busting Kai's roleplaying as Grey could serve to their advantages. Also, remember how the Fat Pig general back at around chapter 6 demands Sakura to give him the Ambrosia, it's possible that even the enemy themself doesn't know about the Human-Only rule.

 

Actually, looking back again at chapter 1, especially on Sakura's reactions and speech after the real Grey remarks that if only he's not an half-elf, maybe the Human-Only rule is a mistranslation. Heck not once in-manga it was explicitly stated that it only works on Human. Maybe the Nectar actually works on any race but Human is the most effective, hence why Sakura and Grey attempt to summon one and also why Grey made that remarks in the first place.

 

In the first chapter gray/sakura go to extreme lengths just to summon someone else, not to mention that they deliberately involved a complete stranger in their problems. If Gray could have turned into the dharani, they would have done it rather than expose themselves and a complete stranger to more risk.

 

The dhalani troops also knew they were summoning a human/marebito specifically for the dharani thing is which they rushed to the temple.

 

Even if you arent human having hold of sakura has immense political value so capturing her and handing her over to your superiors would get you rewarded, so no surprise the fat pig wanted to do it.

 

At this point im leaning towards retcon...obviously if someone on the dhalani side knew that only a human can turn into a dharani, kai's cover as major gray, a famous half-elf, would be easily exposed.

ok, decided to give another echii manga a shot as i havent read any in a while.

*reads up to pg 39 of ch1*

mmm, ok main charecter is a bit of a coward, but i imagine myself in his shoes and get over it. but so far its actually nice. even the art is nice. Haha i wonder how shes gonna give the main charecter powers!(what should have tipped me off was that the brother didnt even know how the power was given)

 

*sees pg 40*

 

....

 

*sees page 41*

........

 

*tabs to manga description and sees Qwaser*

 

......

 

*has deja vu flashbacks of watching (and pausing) episode 1 of Qwaser with the same

scene*

 

*closes both manga tabs*

FFS people, (I am really hoping that I remember this correctly, its been a few chapters and manga since I read it. If I am wrong, please yell at me.) 1+1 always equals 2, 2+2 always equals 4. If the math being done results in anything else then something that is not understood is happening. (Math on paper is clean, you know the variables. Math in the real world is not, we cannot account for all subatomic particles, all energy waves, all spatial planes, etc, etc.) It irks me to no end that people keep explaining magic this way. Magic and science are effectively the same damn thing. They follow along the same parallel path, but where as science is purely the observation of the mechanical functions of the universe, magic is the observation and manipulation of the programmatic functions of the universe... I.E. Science: use stick on log (as pivot) to assist in lifting object. Magic: use (ambiguous) method to manipulate (ambiguous) energy to cause (ambiguous) function. This is vastly more difficult due to the ambiguity (where as push on stick, lift object). The maths are still there, some quantity of energy is required for lift, the energy is used to either generate thrust or manipulate inertia (and therefore cancel out gravity.) And, in all likelihood sometime in the distant future humans will be manipulating functions directly, rather than indirectly (i.e. instead of burning fuel to somehow create thrust, redirect energy to cause motion). Anyway...

I feel your pain friend, they wouldn't last a single game of DnD with their rigid minds.

 

Their "problem" involves the lack of a most crucial element: