Tokyo Ghoul

What a cheap chapter, everything is happening too easy, full of happiness and hope, wtf, all the problems between humans and ghouls solved in one chapter...meh.

You know, some people actually like this manga, some people think the premise is great, and it challenges you to think about things in a different light. You're just like the shitbags at the CCG. Not all ghouls deserve to die, and knocking something that some people like is just rude. If you didn't like it, you should've stopped reading it. Get a better life. Is it selfish for us to live? we slaughter cattle and countless other species. Your reasoning is bullshit. Period. 
 
- Tokyo Ghoul is life 
- I *heart* Nishiki/Uta

You know, some people actually like this manga, some people think the premise is great, and it challenges you to think about things in a different light. You're just like the shitbags at the CCG. Not all ghouls deserve to die, and knocking something that some people like is just rude. If you didn't like it, you should've stopped reading it. Get a better life. Is it selfish for us to live? we slaughter cattle and countless other species. Your reasoning is bullshit. Period. 

- Tokyo Ghoul is life 

- I *heart* Nishiki/Uta

man, i never said changing society is easy. that's why i made an analogy to women's rights. yea, ofc not everyone is a vegetarian, but there sure as hell are way more vegetarians today than there were 20 years ago. HELL even trends now are completely different than they were even a decade ago. you're acting like society is static when that's the complete opposite. yea it takes a long ass time for things to change, but do they change? they sure as hell do.

 

i get the point you're trying to make but it's way too weak. maybe in some kind of bizarro closed system society that comprises of like a dozen people. look at the past few centuries of world politics if you wanna see why your ideas are misled. just because they're all tribal, human-murdering edgelords now doesn't mean things don't change

 

that being said, you're right. this is the premise the manga gives us and it sucks, which is why we're having this discussion i guess. i guess it's not you, but the author, who has this weird juvenile notion of how society works. or maybe hey, you're right, ghouls are fictional, for all i know if they existed they would all live in weird permanent societies built on no (human) logic

I think part of the problem is that ghouls aren't even given a chance to change. They are killed the moment they are exposed, and anyone who questions athe CCG is also executed. Under such a totaltarian/autocratic style government entity (that is privately owned, btw), there is no room for change because they have already decided that this is how things are, and that is how it should be. Even the human population is so out of touch with ghoul society because of this, that no one can move forward. No one in the science community can look for a cure/cause to ghouls' apetite to integrate them into human society, because they would be executed if they did. That's the real problem here.

Wow, what a shitty false dilemma this manga has as its premise ...
 
I mean ... seriously? I am supposed to feel for the ghouls’ selfish desire to live? If they feed only on the already deceased and never kill a human, fine, do as you will. But survive by murdering? Fuck you. There’s no way to justify that. You might as well write a manga about a bunch of monsters who have to rape infants in order to live. Let’s see if there’d still be imbeciles to defend that kind of ghoul.
 
Obviously, the ethical thing to do for the ghouls is to either live in the aforementioned non-violent way or to commit suicide. Your life isn’t more valuable than anyone else’s so to sustain it by taking away that of others is immoral. As such, Anteiku and Yoshimura’s style of leading the 20th ward was immoral, too. Letting sacks of shit like Rize slaughter humans at their leisure ... that was your way of trying to facilitate a mutual understanding and eventual cohabitation with humans? For real, you old fart?

So I guess this was supposed to be a tragic ending? The only tragedy here I see is that the humans suffered such heavy losses. Who cares about those moronic ghouls?
 
Why oh why was I talked into reading this? Such a waste of time.

Dumbass, they aren't human so it isn't immoral for them.  A wolf will prey on the sheep, doesn't make the wolf immoral.  The same goes for any other carnivore ever.  Everything you said made it seem like the ghouls were human themselves.  Kinda fucking stupid if you ask me.

Wait, what happened to hide?

Wow, what a shitty false dilemma this manga has as its premise ...
 
I mean ... seriously? I am supposed to feel for the ghouls’ selfish desire to live? If they feed only on the already deceased and never kill a human, fine, do as you will. But survive by murdering? Fuck you. There’s no way to justify that. You might as well write a manga about a bunch of monsters who have to rape infants in order to live. Let’s see if there’d still be imbeciles to defend that kind of ghoul.
 
Obviously, the ethical thing to do for the ghouls is to either live in the aforementioned non-violent way or to commit suicide. Your life isn’t more valuable than anyone else’s so to sustain it by taking away that of others is immoral. As such, Anteiku and Yoshimura’s style of leading the 20th ward was immoral, too. Letting sacks of shit like Rize slaughter humans at their leisure ... that was your way of trying to facilitate a mutual understanding and eventual cohabitation with humans? For real, you old fart?

So I guess this was supposed to be a tragic ending? The only tragedy here I see is that the humans suffered such heavy losses. Who cares about those moronic ghouls?
 
Why oh why was I talked into reading this? Such a waste of time.

 

I won't say I don't agree with the point you're making, as much as I'd undoubtedly punch the fuck out of your arrogance, but as emo-teenager a perspective as this story might have, it still makes some sense for me. Ghouls could eat the "leftovers" xD (the suicidal people who have accomplished their ulterior dream), or could arrange a way to not make innocents suffer (eat those condemned to death or sth). They don't, which is logically and ethically wrong.

Well, what's the difference between this relationship and that of humans and animals? We,both humans and ghouls, could change our diet in order not to eat meat, therefore killing people/animals. In both cases, we convince ourselves it is compulsory with varied excuses and even in the entertainment some get out of killing, there are similarities.

Are the ghouls immature? Well, so are we. They could change their way of life as much as we could.

So I'd say it's not so much about finding who's good and who's bad, but more of how close both sides end up beIng. Then, it is really "ethics" conducting people to kill ghouls? Should people, and can they, feel compassion for a species that mostly want to eat us, but that is neither superior nor inferior to ourselves?

Well, I guess this is not a new POV, but fuck did I entertain myself writing this.

man, i never said changing society is easy. that's why i made an analogy to women's rights. yea, ofc not everyone is a vegetarian, but there sure as hell are way more vegetarians today than there were 20 years ago. HELL even trends now are completely different than they were even a decade ago. you're acting like society is static when that's the complete opposite. yea it takes a long ass time for things to change, but do they change? they sure as hell do.

i get the point you're trying to make but it's way too weak. maybe in some kind of bizarro closed system society that comprises of like a dozen people. look at the past few centuries of world politics if you wanna see why your ideas are misled. just because they're all tribal, human-murdering edgelords now doesn't mean things don't change

that being said, you're right. this is the premise the manga gives us and it sucks, which is why we're having this discussion i guess. i guess it's not you, but the author, who has this weird juvenile notion of how society works. or maybe hey, you're right, ghouls are fictional, for all i know if they existed they would all live in weird permanent societies built on no (human) logic

uhh, you kinda answered this question for yourself- you change it by changing the "nurture" aspect, by transforming your society's ideologies and morals, making killing humans for food unethical. a society's morals are not static- take a look at the majority of so-called civilized society. in the not so distant past, women were largely considered property and a lot of currently reprehensible actions against them were totally ok. of course you still have people who treat women like garbage but it's usually heavily frowned upon or straight up illegal nowadays in pretty much every post-industrial nation i know of.

 

so, unless i'm misunderstanding you, your argument that "ghouls have to kill humans for food, they can't help it" doesn't really hold up. moreover, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

 

EDIT: vegetarians exist too, ya know. tons of people who were raised eating meat voluntarily become vegetarians because of morality, so your argument that "ghouls have been eating people for centuries, that's just the way it is" doesn't really cut it...

You it sound like changing societies mind is an easy task.

-making killing humans for food unethical

Let's compare this to another time we labeled a certain substance both illegal AND unethical under the Prohibition in the United States. It completely and utterly failed. You can't just say: "Hey guys this is bad" and people will follow, even attaching a punishment didn't stop the anti-Prohibition people.

Society isn't something you can slap a leash on without being in some sort of a dictatorship.

Which governing also comes into play with Ghouls. They have no real leader, only factions. How in the world would you convince all the hundreds of factions of ghouls that eating humans is wrong?

It seems to me like the start of these movements to not kill humans, which was why the manager told Ken that he was so important to both worlds.

And as for the vegetarian argument, literally in my post:

"how do you change after being raised in such a way for 21 years? Some will, but the rest of society won't follow."

i.e. YES SOME GHOULS CHANGE THEIR MIND, will all of them? Probably not. It's the premise that the manga is giving us. Just like how all humans aren't vegans.

I mean if this helps you understand my side of the argument, try convincing someone to be vegan based off ethics.

 

Nature vs Nurture with ghouls when both Nature is wanting to eat humans and then the society (Nurture) also insists on eating humans. How do you even break that cycle? For humans it's easier because it's not our nature to eat others, but for ghouls it's intrinsic.

 

 

uhh, you kinda answered this question for yourself- you change it by changing the "nurture" aspect, by transforming your society's ideologies and morals, making killing humans for food unethical. a society's morals are not static- take a look at the majority of so-called civilized society. in the not so distant past, women were largely considered property and a lot of currently reprehensible actions against them were totally ok. of course you still have people who treat women like garbage but it's usually heavily frowned upon or straight up illegal nowadays in pretty much every post-industrial nation i know of.

so, unless i'm misunderstanding you, your argument that "ghouls have to kill humans for food, they can't help it" doesn't really hold up. moreover, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

EDIT: vegetarians exist too, ya know. tons of people who were raised eating meat voluntarily become vegetarians because of morality, so your argument that "ghouls have been eating people for centuries, that's just the way it is" doesn't really cut it...

1) If they feed only on the already deceased and never kill a human, fine, do as you will. But survive by murdering? Fuck you. There’s no way to justify that.

2) Obviously, the ethical thing to do for the ghouls is to either live in the aforementioned non-violent way or to commit suicide. Your life isn’t more valuable than anyone else’s so to sustain it by taking away that of others is immoral.

3) As such, Anteiku and Yoshimura’s style of leading the 20th ward was immoral, too. Letting sacks of shit like Rize slaughter humans at their leisure ... that was your way of trying to facilitate a mutual understanding and eventual cohabitation with humans? For real, you old fart?
4) So I guess this was supposed to be a tragic ending? The only tragedy here I see is that the humans suffered such heavy losses. Who cares about those moronic ghouls

5) Either it is morally right to inflict suffering upon humans or it isn’t. If it is right, why do humans deserve punishment (which is done in response to wrong behavior)? If it wrong, why is it right for ghouls to engage in this immoral behavior?
6) As for the eating of suicide victims: Yes, you genius, this WOULD solve the problem of ghouls murdering humans in order to live. Only eating the already dead = no need to kill the living. Was that train of thought too much to expect of you?

7) But puh~lease, do enlighten me about the “moral of the story”, o wise one. Tell me more about how the ghouls’ behavior isn’t an absolutely clear-cut case of wrongdoing without even a shade of grey morality.

8) And if you’re still up for mental gymnastics after that, feel free to address my challenge from the previous post I wrote: Defend a species of ghouls that need to rape infants in order to live.

It's absolutely hilarious to me how little you've understood the story. As an aside you could do without insulting the other person you're making an argument to, focus on the argument Mr. Ad Hominem

1) It's made absolutely clear at the beginning of the story that ghouls eating humans is a natural urge. It's like being thirsty and getting a drink of water. You're taking this perspective like all ghouls are like Kaneki, but they're raised by being taught to go and drink when thirsty. Kaneki is a unique case that understands it's wrong to eat humans, which is something ghouls don't comprehend. Why? Because Humans have hunted Ghouls and vice versa for YEARS, it's a social norm at this point. For Ghouls it's about survival. And if you can't get that central theme, this whole series is beyond you.

2) Telling a ghoul who's essentially a human to piss off and commit suicide for being born a ghoul is real mature. Nice job solving that moral dilemma, sure is easy to value lives. Again another core aspect of the series ignored.

3) Yoshimura was never in charge of Rize. He made it clear to her that if she stepped on his toes anymore he would make a move, but she got steel beam'd before that happened.

4) The 'moronic' ghouls that died were the only ones who tried to live according to your ideal of eating suicide victims. You don't care about the characters who actually did what you wanted them to do, and at this point I'm confused what you even wanted from this series.

5) Logical Fallacy of False Dilemma says Hi.

You're talking about morals in a fight that no one knows who started. You act as though ghouls are the perpetrators here but we have no evidence of that. What if the original ghoul population only feasted on corpses until someone saw them eating and decided to kill them? In which case what right did humans have to inflict punishment on the ghouls?

But on the other spectrum if ghouls have always eaten living humans, why should they now follow your logic of morals?

You're trying to gun this down to something that isn't realistic.

At the end of the day Humans kill Ghouls and Ghouls kill Humans regardless of what's right or wrong. Something TG covered with Hinami and her Mother who wanted to live peacefully.

6) For the suicide victims to provide for ghouls theory; IT CANNOT SUSTAIN A GHOUL POPULATION. Anteiku was struggling with having enough meat for everyone and they would ration out portions while keeping the rest in a freezer. This would NEVER be allowed by the humans because

A ) We actively don't want suicide to occur and...

B ) I don't think anyone wants a loved ones corpse to be eaten like food

I could be wrong but I swear Anteiku said they were struggling to make ends meet when providing for Hinami and her Mother. You also have to think about how many suicide victims there actually are in a months time.

7) Ghoul Society as a whole thinks eating humans is a social norm, it's like drinking alcohol. No one questions it and if you do, you'll look like an odd duck while everyones eating a human. You just aren't seeing it from a relativist perspective. They've eaten humans for centuries, dad, grandpa, great grandfather etc. So even if the act is 'evil' are the people who were raised off of it truly evil? They never made the conscious decision to do such a thing. And sure you can say that when they're old enough they can put a stop to things, but how do you change after being raised in such a way for 21 years? Some will, but the rest of society won't follow.

Nature vs Nurture with ghouls when both Nature is wanting to eat humans and then the society (Nurture) also insists on eating humans. How do you even break that cycle? For humans it's easier because it's not our nature to eat others, but for ghouls it's intrinsic.

So that's what you have to imagine with Hinami/Ken/Touka and Anteiku.

They were societal outcasts as a group, but were yearning to coexist with humans.

Then the worst thing ever happens, Humans come in and slaughter the only ghouls that were willing to protect humans. Tell me then how ghouls are black and white.

8) Baby Hitler clones that are immune to everything except rape. Are you telling me you wouldn't rape baby Hitlers? To save millions of jews?

Animals kill all the time and no one calls them monsters. if humans ate humans instead of ghouls would you still call them monsters? Isn't that being hypocrite? Who decides that humans see above all things? This is a physiological manga. I honestly can't blame the majority of ghoul for looking down on humans and eat them as a w at to sate their anger. We humans s 're not saint. I'm often disgusted by the things humans did in the past and still do in the present. We kill, torture and destroy, how does that make us anI better than ghouls and make them any more of a monsters than we are? At lwast thwry kill becuase ythey dont have any othdr optiIon. And do you honestly think I that eating suicide victims is going to solve the problem? You really don't read further than what you see in front of you.

It's a psychological manga, the story and characters aren't black and white. I do get that because of the genre this manga isn't for every person since not everyone gets the moral of the story.

Theres no need to reply to thuis post, since I'm hardly on anyway. And Mister ave a good night/ evening/ morning.

No need to reply? This is a public forum, not a private conversation so whether or not you are going to read my response is secondary at best.
 
As for your counterargument (if it can even be called that), this is exactly the kind of puerile drivel that got me so mad about this moronic premise in the first place. Animals are not called monsters for killing precisely because they are ... *gasp* ... animals! Shocking, I know! They have no consciousness to speak of as far as we can tell and moral judgments are about as far out of their reach as lunar exploration is. If an agent lacks the capacity to self-reflect and, as a result of this, cannot judge its own actions (let alone will to change them) then its behavior does not fall into the moral realm.
For similar reasons we value human life so highly. To the extent that we can ascertain this, we are the only beings with minds and at the very least the only ones with minds as complex as ours. That alone does make a strong case that we are indeed above all other things on this planet. Remember for a second that the ones having this ethics debate is us! Humans! Who is to judge us if not ourselves? Possibly a god but certainly no animal.
 
Now, you go on to claim that humans in general deserve to be mistreated because humans in general mistreat others. Do you not see the contradiction in this? So because some humans torture and kill that then makes it okay for ghouls to torture and kill all other humans? How stupid are you? Either it is morally right to inflict suffering upon humans or it isn’t. If it is right, why do humans deserve punishment (which is done in response to wrong behavior)? If it wrong, why is it right for ghouls to engage in this immoral behavior?
It is this badly thought-through, ignorant and juvenile attempt at philosophizing that pisses me off. Yet you dare tell me that I’m the one who doesn’t “read further than what [I] see in front of [me]”? Talk about projecting!
 
As for the eating of suicide victims: Yes, you genius, this WOULD solve the problem of ghouls murdering humans in order to live. Only eating the already dead = no need to kill the living. Was that train of thought too much to expect of you?
But puh~lease, do enlighten me about the “moral of the story”, o wise one. Tell me more about how the ghouls’ behavior isn’t an absolutely clear-cut case of wrongdoing without even a shade of grey morality. And if you’re still up for mental gymnastics after that, feel free to address my challenge from the previous post I wrote: Defend a species of ghouls that need to rape infants in order to live.
 
On a side note, are you alright? Judging by the deterioration in spelling it looks like you had a stroke in the middle of writing that. Similarly, it’s “psychological”, not “physiological” (which is kinda the opposite). Guess you half-remembered that again by the end.

Wow, what a shitty false dilemma this manga has as its premise ...
 
I mean ... seriously? I am supposed to feel for the ghouls’ selfish desire to live? If they feed only on the already deceased and never kill a human, fine, do as you will. But survive by murdering? Fuck you. There’s no way to justify that. You might as well write a manga about a bunch of monsters who have to rape infants in order to live. Let’s see if there’d still be imbeciles to defend that kind of ghoul.
 
Obviously the ethical thing to do for the ghouls is to either live in the aforementioned non-violent way or to commit suicide. Your life isn’t more valuable than anyone else’s so to sustain it by taking away that of others is immoral. As such, Anteiku and Yoshimura’s style of leading the 20th ward was immoral, too. Letting sacks of shit like Rize slaughter humans at their leisure ... that was your way of trying to facilitate a mutual understanding and eventual cohabitation with humans? For real, you old fart?
So I guess this was supposed to be a tragic ending? The only tragedy here I see is that the humans suffered such heavy losses. Who cares about those moronic ghouls?
 
Why oh why was I talked into reading this? Such a waste of time.

Wow, what a shitty false dilemma this manga has as its premise ...
 
I mean ... seriously? I am supposed to feel for the ghouls’ selfish desire to live? If they feed only on the already deceased and never kill a human, fine, do as you will. But survive by murdering? Fuck you. There’s no way to justify that. You might as well write a manga about a bunch of monsters who have to rape infants in order to live. Let’s see if there’d still be imbeciles to defend that kind of ghoul.
 
Obviously, the ethical thing to do for the ghouls is to either live in the aforementioned non-violent way or to commit suicide. Your life isn’t more valuable than anyone else’s so to sustain it by taking away that of others is immoral. As such, Anteiku and Yoshimura’s style of leading the 20th ward was immoral, too. Letting sacks of shit like Rize slaughter humans at their leisure ... that was your way of trying to facilitate a mutual understanding and eventual cohabitation with humans? For real, you old fart?

So I guess this was supposed to be a tragic ending? The only tragedy here I see is that the humans suffered such heavy losses. Who cares about those moronic ghouls?
 
Why oh why was I talked into reading this? Such a waste of time.

how do i read it? im a newb

you have to make batoto account to read it

what do imprisoned ghouls eat?

Stew.

what do imprisoned ghouls eat?

how do i read it? im a newb

Thank you. This has been a beautifully, maddeningly, crushingly , despairingly hopeful  -hopeless- series.

Reflecting here, on the end of this journey, I am truly, truly changed.

Jesus Fucking Christ.

Thanks for quality scans, speedy translations kept me a bit unsatisfied.